Dan-O,
that sounds exactly like us.
in my family we rant and rave and scream and cuss..and put it ALL out there.......and then we hug and kiss and make up...and we never hold grudges. but, we do tend to bring things up again and again.

his family was large and forced to be very independant. they never saw thier parents disagree let alone argue or fight..... everybody kept everything in.... and dealt w/ it internally.
remembering that, always forces me to go slower and be more understanding of his approach.
so, thank you!!
i needed to be reminded of that today.

.......and it took us 15+ plus years to 'figure that out" too.
we have been married for 18.
this is weird.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am so glad you have taken the time to post. I have been printing out portions of this to show to my H because so much of it is us(minus the physical abuse and cussing him out)! I totally agree with sj and Thorned Rose that learning to communicate in your W's language would help...it would make a HUGE difference for my H and me. It is true that the more my husband just stares at me as if I am a lunatic when I'm trying to communicate w/ him the more frustrated and angry I become w/ him. After all, it makes perfect sense to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> And he must not care because he just keeps insisting that there's not a problem (by his silence)or if there is, it's MY problem because he thinks "logically". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Your post is providing opportunities for the "lightbulb" to go off for both of us!

I do think that WHILE you are practicing these important steps of communication w/ your W and meeting her EN's, you also need to let her know calmly that it is not ok to hit you.

Calmly say to your abusive wife: "If you ever hit me again, I am going to put you into an insane asylum! Pronto!"

baba2, you're funny. That's what got me here. ;-).

To be clear, when she’s has really lost it, and this is on a rare occasion, she’ll corner me, grab me strongly, and sometimes punch me in the arm—not the face or balls and such. I realize that doesn’t make it right. She’ll nearly always charge toward me, but not necessarily get physical. Perhaps I exaggerated previously to the extent that she might have hurt me. Usually, she’ll bang her fists on the table which could do herself some harm. Frankly, I’d rather have her hit my arm than the corner of a door where she can break her wrist and be out of work for 6 weeks. I have no problem taking it, and it’s hardly the part that I can’t live with. I can take it 10 times harder and still not even get bruised. Guys punch each other for kicks like that, but yes, she’s pretty effective for a woman. The problem isn’t even so much what comes out of her mouth or her fists. I don’t even suffer any emotional trauma as a direct result. I’m actually more distraught by the fact that she’s so upset and I had let her get that way—mostly because I know how long it takes for her to emotionally heal. I don’t want her to leave me and I don’t want to see her suffer. I really feel that I have to blame myself for letting her get to that point. I can always prevent it by immediately apologizing, even if it’s not my fault to begin with. I too am guilty of saying terrible things after being provoked. The truth is I have a LONG fuse but a big bomb at the end too. I could argue for hours on end without losing it and then come to a settlement and be fine. The problem is that when she loses it and storms toward me, it sometimes causes me to lose it—except for the last few times when I concentrated on not throwing back hate or threat words. I just verbally defend myself trying to explain my reasoning. I try to stay away from ‘if I’m a this then you’re a that’ comments.

I never had problems even remotely like these in previous relationships (one of 5 years, one of 2.5, others 1 year or less). We had arguments once in a while but not too much drama. Some I have never even had a disagreement with. Actually, I think I lost my temper only once with another woman, and that was when she forced me to rip up some memorabilia of previous relationships. She was just too possessive. Now I have the opposite problem. My wife behaves (key word, behaves) as if she’s overly independent and, like I said, could live without me. If I dropped dead, she'd be devastated, but she’s convinced me that she would let me go and never ask for me to come back if I just got up and left. I'm sure this is a protective mechanism. I believe being in love means _needing_ someone, making yourself vulnerable to that person, and becoming one with each other and depending on each other. That’s why I find it such a turn-off when she behaves so independently. Okay, I blame myself for contributing to that.

You know they say that alcohol help you loose your inhibitions. Well, on the rare occasion that she had one or two cocktails too many (say at a big family party) she gets very touchy-feely and extremely sweet. I love her this way. It's just about impossible for us to get into an argument then--somewhat the opposite of an alcoholic. I almost want her to get drunk more often, but she's usually too careful to have that much. Right now she doesn't drink anything since she's pregnant. She doesn't even want to go near alcohol. Extra hormones and no antidote... I should have known what I was getting into. ;-).

I'm not worried about my wife being abusive to our child. I know. Some of you think I need to wake up. I really think it's a certain chemical combustion that we alone have (and hopefully HAD). She might be a strict mom, but I'm SURE she would not do harm to a child. She would completely flip out if I even showed concern for that because it would think it would be sickening for me to even imagine that she would harm a child. Again, I think I'm the only one that can bring her over her boiling point so easily. In fact, I really didn't mean to make her out to be so awful; I wrote my initial post in the heat of the moment. She actually has a HUGE heart, the problem is that it's ultra sensitive, again, partly because of my behavior, and I'm sure partly because of her past. Deep down, she is a GOOD person. She says she thanks God for what she has every night. In general, she is known to be a very nice and fun person. All of her acquaintances and close friends think she’s just wonderful --although I've heard one say she can be a little hard on the outside. My brother and sister sometimes complain that she can be somewhat cold and sometimes rigid--but I think that's just evidence of our problems. Otherwise, they love her enormously. I mean, they really adore her.

She works full time and cooks for me every day except for the once or twice a week that we go out for dinner or when we go to eat with family. Once in a while (say once a month) I say, "sweetie, I know I don't say this every night, but I want you to know how much I appreciate that you cook for me. You're the best cook in the world as far as I’m concerned." The way I help out is I do the dishes every night IMMEDIATELY after dinner--or else she’ll be royally pissed. Hey, I don't like cooking and I can't be good at everything. I do everything else in the house, including my share of the floor scrubbing and vacuuming, and especially all the fixing and yard maintenance. I'm a serious DIY guy--including electrical, plumbing, cars, you name it. If I don't do it, it's only because I don't have the right tools. I never complain that she doesn't do her share because she does.

But back to the main issues which I will list below… To be fair, I must state that she would totally disagree with these opinions, and that she would say her friends would too.

* She HATES it when I interrupt her. And I'm talking about just small talk when things are going good. For example, if she's starting to tell me a story about somewhere she went with her friends, I might interject and say, "oh, I heard about that place. Did you know that it was written up in the newspaper recently?" She would say, "Excuse me, but I was trying to tell you about it and you just completely interrupted me. Just forget it." I'm like, "people interrupt and banter like that all day long and everyone’s always okay with it. I didn't mean anything bad by it. You do it to me consistently I find it completely normal." And she'll say that's because "I'm me and you're you." Sometimes, the argument escalates to an explosion over THIS!!! She says when she's on a roll; she doesn't like to get interrupted. The only option is for me to say, "I'm sorry sweetie, please continue", at which point she sometimes still says, "just forget it."

* She's overly sensitive, and I'm not talking about when I'm overly offensive. I partly blame myself for this because even though she was always sensitive, it's worse after what we've been through.

* She’s a lark, and I’m an owl. I have never been a morning person—not even at 5 years old. She has a “normal” schedule (gets in bed by 9 or 10 and out by 6 or 7). After 9pm, I finally get some freedom to do what I need to do that I can’t enjoy with her, like watch the programs I like, catch up on e-mail, do some quiet housework, etc. I’m in bed usually by 1:00am, sometimes later, sometimes as early as 11:30. I’m up by 9 to 9:15 and at work by 10 (totally normal for my line of work and acceptable to my company—in fact most come in after 9:30). I sleep later on the weekends but I try not to for her sake.

* She works only 4 days a week, but LONG days on her feet. Some days 9 to 8, and sometimes without a lunch break. She’s totally exhausted when she comes home and much more irritable. I’ve tried to convince her to work five short days instead, but NOOOO way. Heck, I’ll even take four short days if it means she’s going to be a better person and feel better. Mind you, she works out four days a week doing pilates, elliptical, running, etc, so I can’t complain that she doesn’t have enough endurance or take care of herself.

* She's, in general, not very flexible or spontaneous. She likes structure and things very planned out (not that this is a bad thing, just different from the way I am). I leave most of my structure at work. If I say I'm going to do something on a particular day, and something else comes up that can't wait, she can't handle the last minute change in schedule. I feel like I can't make any promises, ever. I always have to qualify by saying, "I'll do my best to make it happen, but there is a chance that something could change the plan." Sometimes she doesn't even give me a chance to express how sorry I am. She goes straight into complaining and so I go straight into defending myself (I know now, there are much better ways). Things like doing yard work Saturday because it's gonna rain all day Sunday and therefore washing the kitchen floor like I promised I would do on Saturday doesn't get done by Saturday. For an extreme example... One time we had to go to her friend's wedding. Something came up last minute: a serious bug in some oem software that was needed by a client on Monday or our client would lose their contract with a big customer. I was called into work to fix it. I went through hell and a huge argument trying to get her to understand that I'm not looking forward to missing the wedding but I have no choice if I want to make sure I keep my job. Frankly I found it seriously disrespectful that she could not understand that what I had to do was more important. I guess she must have felt convinced that it wasn't more important because keeping her surely is more important.

* I'll give her a massage (foot, back, neck) several times a week (usually without being asked) and she won't return the favor without a lot of begging, and even then, she'll cut it short. I call her nearly every day from work to see how she's doing (if she's working, I leave a message). Yet she'll still complain that I'm not there for her. Asking her how she's doing is not enough. I somehow need to show more emotion to persuade her that I really do care. I am trying much harder now and I will certainly ask "what can I do for you to help you in any way or make you happy?"

* She's not a risk taker by any means. She needs security. I like to take chances. You don't get far in life without taking chances.

* I like to watch Discovery channel, learning channel, animal planet, health, politics, history, science, movies of most kinds. She likes to watch Sex and the City (which I frankly find trashy and not of great influence), Joe Millionaire, Friends, Sopranos. But I watch it anyway because SHE is in charge of what we watch nearly 100% of the time.

* She is not interested in anything unless she has some direct connection or can associate with it. Egocentric in a way. For example, she would never pick up a baby book before she go pregnant. She would not read about a country unless we planned on going there. She won't read national geographic; she'll read Self. I've got to give her credit for reading the newspaper, but I don't think she absorbs much beyond the headlines unless she's in the travel, weather, or entertainment sections.

* For those that mentioned I need to be the artist and not the engineer, I used to like to play Classical guitar almost everyday (some Spanish, some Baroque, some renaissance, etc.). She doesn't show much interest. She'll have to be doing something else if I want her to listen to me. I hardly have motivation now to keep it up. She'll "wow" me like you do a child if I look for complements. My previous girlfriends and friends-that-were-girls used to find it fascinating and even ask lots of questions. They used to ask me to play. So why did I leave them? Eh... I guess I wasn't ready to settle down (except one being overly possessive did not help).

* My dry or perhaps in some ways, overly complicated sense of humor does not interest her. Okay, sometimes it's and I'm childish because I still have that little boy in me--which is why kids just love me. Her friends’ kids beg for me to come over. She thinks its funny when people poke at themselves or do a good imitation of someone else. She's not good at being the object of the humor. I hastily generalize that she has no sense of humor. I just have trouble finding it or evoking it.

* She's a little too serious sometimes. She'd say I'm a little too immature. I can be serious when need be, and the complete opposite when I'm having a good time. The problem is that I need to be more serious when she thinks I need to be.

* She's generous in many ways, and likes to give, but usually on her own terms and in her own categories.

* My friends and her friends are complete opposites (that's no surprise). My friends are educated (I mean institutionally) and like to speak of world events, culture, history, science, politics, etc. Most (certainly not all) of her friends like to speak of small talk, gossip, and the weather. They think you're too overwhelming if you talk about something of educational value.

* I usually like to clean up all at once, not as I go like she does. This creates some issues when I leave a coffee cup on the table, or some tools lying around. Although, I must give credit where credit is due; she has made GREAT progress in this area.

What we do have going for us in no specific order is that we both find each other physically attractive, we vacation well together (hey maybe low stress environments is more of what we need), we enjoy hiking and picnics, we enjoy much of the same foods and wines (when she's not pregnant of course), we are both very honest and loyal, we are both very successful at work, neither one of us is possessive, and pretty much have the same tastes in decorating (a big bonus around the house!).

Finally, I’m not perfect, and I’m sure my wife can come up with a list of things about me like “he’s a slob,” but I list these issues for perhaps some further advice on how to deal with them. I appreciate enormously the advice many of you have already given. I am convinced I can overcome many of the issues we have, even just by me being the better person—especially while she’s pregnant. Again, I will try to stay open minded, be more sensitive to her feelings, use emotion in color, and let her healing process begin. Oh, one of you asked… yes, she’s in personal counseling now, and I’ve met with her therapist. My wife is pretty happy with her, but frankly I haven’t seen improvement in the anger category. As for me, I think I’m going to buy those books that were recommended and get some self-help—because helping yourself is ultimately the only way one can change.

Oh, one more thing. If she read this, it would be over. Stupid me, I used my first name and I’ve been surfing and participating in on-line forums for years. I should have known better. If she could only know I’m doing it for the better of both of us…

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas ]</small>

You can change your posted name - if you choose to - so she won't recognize you.

Just go to profile and change it.

Jan

Hey bud

You know the part where you described how you can't explain "anything" to her. How she's inclined to interpret anything you say into something you had no intention? That combined with the fits she throws when she "loses it". Dude, you just described how my wife was a long time ago. Mine no longer "loses it" but she still takes 90% of what I say and turns it into something entirely other than what I meant. It's taken me years to learn how to get my message across, and even now, if the issure isn't that important I won't even bring it up.

My wife is a diagnosed "Bi-Polar". Not saying yours is but there are definate similarities. Whatever it is your describing, IMHO there's a connection with emotional, if not mental disturbance going on.

M.

your posts were long and i didn't finish but, something stood out for me and i wanted to post you.

you said she HATES to be interrupted and gets very upset by this.

my husband is the same way.
infact, i read many similarities in your w and my H.....i think you could benefit from taking the personality tests and figuring out your types...it might make it easier to learn how to communicate better.

getting back to HATING to be interrupted.
that might go back to her childhood. my H was from a large family and never felt heard. it really sets him off when he feels that i (his wife, who should be supportive) am not LISTENING to him.

when we identified THAT.....he was able to realize that he was a bit over sensitive about this and work on it...
.and I was able to better understand where he was coming from.
being able to relate to that.....
i was able to feel compassion for him,and try harder to LISTEN to him, and not interrupt.

Mortimer, I hope she's not bi-polar. She'll never consider it possible, but she probably thinks I am. Nelly, about family... read on.

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS:

* My wife is one of 6 kids.

* She's has a twin brother.

* Her older sister is from the same parents.

* Her two older brothers are from her mother's previous marriage but she knew them as brothers since her brothers were only babies when her parents got together.

* Her younger brother is a late comer and is only 16.

* Her parents have split up about 3 years ago but they're still not legally divorced. Her father lives with his original wife and their daughter who was unknown to my wife until recently.

* She is bitter at her father for leaving for another woman and not divorcing properly. They don't speak. Her family situation tears her apart. Holidays are an organizational and emotional mess. Her maternal grandmother and mother do not speak and they live next door to each other. Her maternal grandmother even has her father and his mistress over for dinner on occasion!

* She has a great relationship with her mother.

* She had a bi-poloar ex boyfriend for several years who was at least verbally abusive. She has had another boyfriend of several years that was also at least verbally abusive. I just can't get the details out of her.

* She thinks I am by far the one that needs the most help. She is utterly convinced that there is something seriously wrong with me.

Just changed my display name to "Iam N. Ormal" but as I suspected, my previous posts don't change. UhOhhh.

...well whadda ya know: they just changed even though I had done a refresh a few times before without seeing it change. Probably just takes a while to update the system. Older version of UBB coudn't do that. Very cool.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Iam N. Ormal ]</small>

"she thinks i am by far the one who needs the most help. she is utterly convinced there is something seriously wrong with me."


she must be an ISTJ. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You might be N. Normal, but from your description, she is not. . . sorry, you describe a person who has manipulative tendencies, who has been hurt from her FOO, (Family of Origin), and exhibits some borderline behaviors. . . and a few others. . .

These MB behavioral changes by you won't fix her "emotionalism," they will just make them more infrequent. . . I suggest IC (Individual Counseling) for you, as you are dealing with way more than just what the Harley's approach can/will do for you. . .

good luck,
you will need it. .

wiftty

You exibit some controlling tendencies- the I won't allow our child to be brought up by a stranger -NOT YOUR EXCLUSIVE CALL. Words like I won't allow are asking for an arguement with a spouse who is supposed to be a partner. People do not tell partners what they will and will not allow.

You also seem to be very focused on her understanding you and not visa versa.

These are the negatives that I see regarding you.

However,
She seems to have some major problems with blowing things way out of proportion and reacting in a manner that is not conducive to good communication and good feelings.

As a woman I can very easily see that there is something wrong with your wife.

For example, if you had said to me that you will not allow a child to be brought up by others I would say that you can't dictate what we will do we are going to have to find some kind of compromise on this and that would have been IT!!!If you were reasonable you would probably realize that you can't dictate the terms of our marriage and would have said, yes, we need to come to some kind of compromise, because you would know that the issue would not be resolved until an agreement was reached.

Instead your wife turned it into a major major issue. She is using her emotionalism to gain the upper hand because she can't do it with reason. She doesn't have patience nor desire. She is abusive to you because she doesn't know any other way.

You two seem very incompatible. Neither of you communicate in a way that the other can understand. Love is not enough.

The nature of our latest argument is almost never the method by which she gets into rages. I WAS DEFINITELY WRONG THE WAY I HANDLED IT. Mind you, I didn't go straight for the jugular. The child care issue started out with me saying (all paraphrased), "lets discuss it at another time", to "I don't feel comfortable with it", to "why don't I work less instead," to "you can't make that decision on your own," to "since we must come to an agreement, and since I'll never agree to someone outside the family rearing our children, I just won't let it happen--I'll stay at home myself if I have to." Then she called me selfish and I said (again, I’m paraphrasing), "If you think I’m selfish, then you’re selfish if you put your work ahead of your baby."

The last one is what caused her to explode into a rage--primarily because I believe in her mind, it is so absolutely disgusting and insulting that I could even begin to think that she would put herself ahead of her baby--even though that is, in fact, what she would be doing given that money is not an issue. That does not NECESSARILY mean its bad for the baby. Perhaps a super nanny could instill even better values into the baby and give it even more love, but given that it would be an unknown and therefore a risk, I can only conclude that taking a risk with a child to better yourself is at least to SOME (even if minute) degree a matter of selfishness. But it sure sounded a lot worse to her, and I certainly didn't mean my comment as an accusation that she doesn't care at all about her baby. It was really only to point out that she was being hypocritical—which I know is not a good thing to do but when you’re already pissed off, it’s not that easy to be perfect. But I am learning, and I’m thinking about my behavior more than ever.

Anyway, back to my main point—that fights almost never occur that way. What normally happens is she’ll complain about something that I believe most people would find insignificant (like interrupting with questions or comments on the same topic while having good conversation). Then I’ll go into trying to explain that I was not trying to be offensive. Next, to me being defensive. Finally, it just escalates from there. The SIMPLE solution is to just say, “I’m sorry sweetheart, I will try to never let it happen again.” The problem is that it's not the EASY solution. It is just SOOOO difficult saying sorry for something so pathetically innocent. It eats at me because it’s so abnormal to say you're sorry when you really aren't. I have never had to behave this way with family, friends, or even in any other relationship. It feels so self degrading.

Another example happened recently. I was running late for work. As I was leaving, she asked me to fix the DVD player. I said, “I’m sorry I can’t. I’m running late.” Then she said she really needs it fixed because it’s her day off and she really wants to work out with the fitness DVD. So again, I said, “But I just can’t be late for work. I don’t have time.” And again one more time and I said, “Why can’t you understand that I have to go to work?” Finally she said, “Well that SUCKS.” So I went into the exercise room wher she was sitting on the floor, and I said, “Please have some respect for me and my work,” and then I closed the door (swiftly, but not slamming at all) and walked away. Boy does she hate that and I know I shouldn’t have done it, but I felt disrespected. Then she immediately STORMED out of the room and went into a total frenzy, throwing the remote control down the stairs where it broke into a number of pieces while screaming at me. After it was all over, she claimed that it DID suck that I couldn’t help her, but not because I was being a jerk, but just because the situation plainly sucked even though she understood why I couldn’t help. Then she said she got so upset because I accused her of something she wasn’t feeling but mostly because I shut the door on her after saying it. She also said things like, "How could you let me get this way--especially when I'm pregnant?" Needless to say, I was very late for work.

But finally, some good news. I have been extra careful over the past few days, and it’s paying off. I have thrown out DOZENS of complements (e.g., “you are so amazingly beautiful.”), shown concern for her well being (e.g., “How are you feeling today?”), and offered help regularly (e.g., “Is there anything I can do to help you?”). Of course, there are some things I do to help that she doesn’t need to ask for. Not only that, but there are plenty of things that I AVOIDED saying.

I have also been in tune to her complements. NONE. But that’s okay. She’s still warming up to me after the last big one, and she does give me the feeling that she’s happier with me. I notice she is much more at ease. Looking back, when things go well for a while, I do notice that she is not as sensitive to certain things—like the innocent interruptions. The problem is that once she has been so far over the edge, it takes a while for her to back away from it, so she stays ultra-sensitive for a while. I just have to make sure I don’t let her get there ever again—and I DO think it’s possible. She’s sounds whacko but look, we’re not talking ever day here. Like I said, weeks to months go by where we don’t have any tiffs. Really, I think she’ll be a lot more manageable with some extra TLC.

We can take it from there. We’ll do it. I promised my unborn child on it.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Iam N. Ormal ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know they say that alcohol help you loose your inhibitions. Well, on the rare occasion that she had one or two cocktails too many (say at a big family party) she gets very touchy-feely and extremely sweet. I love her this way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would learn not to love her for this, I also feel FOO is at work.

WOW! Whatever I've been doing the past few days has already rewarded me with something I almost never get in a non-mechanical or non-routine way: affection--or better described as, "spontaneous affection". She just came into the bathroom while I was getting ready, leaned against the wall, stared at me with a smile, then gave me a huge hug!

Hmmmm. Maybe I alone can break this vicious cycle. Well, maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to be optimistic!

Dreadthesilence, thank you for the advice. I definitely don't look to alchohol as a solution, I only liked to sieze the opportunity on that rare social occasion where she has had that much--and it happens when we're alone, not just at family functions. I looked at it as a window into what I might be able to find behind that hardened shell. Thank God she's not an alcoholic.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Iam N. Ormal ]</small>

I'm glad that you are getting some affection back.

However, what happens when for some reason you again say something like I've got to go to work can I do it later and she blows because she is SO SELF CENTERED.

Your wife wants your life to revolve around her. She also blows little things like small interuptions way way out of proportion. She is taking it WAY too personally. Her tantrums are a way to try to get her way. As long as you give her a lot of attention and affection and agree with everything she says and do whatever she wants she will give back, but if you dont.......

That's where the problem is, her reaction to your not agreeing is abusive and controlling.

The thing about who is going to take care of the baby? No matter how much you want this to be your call, it's not, it's her call, unless you do want to stay home and take care of the baby yourself. This is a trust issue. You need to trust that she knows herself enough to know what she is capable and not capable of doing. You have avision of how things SHOULD BE that is not in line with what your wife is emotionally able to do. Some women get seriously depressed and go crazy when they just stay home with a baby and do nothing else. We do not have a society like some where women are part of a larger group taking care of children. For her mental and emotional health, and for the mental and emotional health of the baby it might be better if she is not the sole caretaker. Given her very childish emotional responses I would be worried about the baby. I know you keep thinking there is nothing to worry about, but her own reaction to taking care of the baby by herself tells you something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to be optimistic! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, maybe not at the moment, but give it sometime, and you will find that her acting out gets more tiresome, and she will play the closeness / distance game, just enough to keep you tagging along.

its a very seductive mind game. . . once i woke up to a more subtle version, all hell broke loose, as i no longer responded the way my X's temper tantrums were intended. . .

my first post, that i deleted because you have kids, is to go straight to divorce, but since you have kids, that is not a very good answer at the moment. However, I suspect that she will use the kids as an emotional blackmail subject with you. . . and as confident as you are about her abilities, so was I about what i thought the future held. .. but the future is very difficult to predict, and seldom does anything turn out consistently the way that we intend or intuit.

wiftty