In all cases, and especially yours, you must ensure that you do not make that commitment lightly. Honestly, 4 months isn't long enough to make that commitment, especially as you are not committing for just yourself, but your children as well.

Your commitment was premature and is what is creating your problem right now.

You need to be much more discriminating when making such a commitment and you must ensure that it is MUTUAL.

You may not think marriage is very important, but it plays a valuable role in our society. I'll share with you something I posted a few months ago:


(I've edited the original to fit your situation)

Now marriage may not be important to you - but the commitment itself is. That commitment must be arrived at through a process. In our society that process is in the institution of dating, engagement and marriage. You may think the institutions meaningless, none the less, you must find a process that gradually escalates the commitment in a similar fashion.

You can't jump from one to the other just because things 'click'. Early compatibility isn't enough, as you now see - when there are fundamental incompatibilities.

Hiker, please read Dr. Harley's articles on living together before marriage under the "preparing for marriage" category. I don't think you two are living together but it still clearly lays out the differences of marriage and a committed relationship.

I used to think the exact same way you think about marriage and commitment. However, if and when my current relationship ends, I will never live with someone before marriage again or consider myself almost married, because of the exact reasons Dr. Harley has outlined.

Please also note that it doesn't make sense for you to be that committed to her when she is not acting in a committed way toward you.

Yes, sorry, I didn't answer this question, I am in limbo. I am in love with someone who is not equally in love with me. I have tried so hard to "fix" him and help him improve and while small leaks have been fixed it doesn't matter if the entire bottom is gone. I find myself hoping he will become the guy I thought he was and want him to be, but he has shown me for three years now that its not going to happen, yet I keep waiting. I have built up a slow tolerance to his relationship-destroying behavior and now things I wouldn't have put up with from a man 5 years ago happen on a regular basis and I ignore it.

Each time I try to end things I struggle with the guilt of my unfinished fixing job and for not accepting him for who he is. I struggle with the fact because I have stayed with him through all of this, I have taught him that it is okay to be dishonest and engage in IBs. I start to blame myself for our problems.

I blame myself for not doing enough even though I am the one spending all of the time trying to figure out how to fix things. He will oblige me sometimes, we even had sessions with Steve Harley and he filled out questionnaires but he never follows through.

He now has a serious sense of entitlement over me. Recently, I tried to break things off and he stated he wasn't moving out because he couldn't afford it. I gave him an eviction noticed and he made me feel hugely guilty for being willing to put him out on the street when I knew he couldn't pay rent in his own apartment. He moved his stuff into my basement, declared this was where he would live from now on, and then started being charming for a few days. I gave in ... again.

No one in my life knows this stuff about our relationship. I hide it now because I am too embarrassed to tell people I tolerate all of this dishonesty and IB.

The most recent advice I have gotten to break things off is to start engaging in my own IB behavior and build up a social network that does not include him. This is hard for me because I am intensely loyal and a giver. I am making progress, though.

Sorry to give you my sob story but Vib is right, you seem to be in a very similar place that I was 3 years ago and I want to give you a clear picture of where this could lead unless you set clear boundaries and keep a clear head.

HappyHiker,

You wrote she.

Unfriended 4 ex's, Sent 2 no-contact emails to ex-lovers, Filed for a restraining another man she was still in daily contact with

This woman has a entire ecosystem of drama which creates a secret life she lives in in parallel to her everyday existence. That lifestyle is powerfully addictive.

Please understand that nobody here is saying she is an inherently evil person, she might care for animals and children and tend to you when you are sick, she just seems incapable of comprehending the emotional damage she does to her significant others and I'm not sure that blind spot can be fixed.

She might be a perfectly suitable partner for a guy who could care less and uses his wifes affairs as a justification for his own and wants nothing more than a clean house. That guy is not you I suspect.

Has she shown any real and heartfelt remorse over what she did to you?

God Bless
Gamma

I think you should feel lucky you discovered her capacity for deceit early on.

I don't know if she is a "serial cheater" but one thing is VERY clear, that she has a SSL (Secret Second Life), not only demonstrated by what you have seen in your R with her but based on her As during her M. I called Dr Harley's radio show because of some concerns I had with things my H was hiding and he went into more detail on SSL.

A couple of points:
~ This type of person has an extremely hard time following PORH and POJA, which are critical/necessary to building & maintaining romantic love.

~ Dr H has told me this type of person CAN change...and added that it was a good first step that my H recognized he had a problem and showed a willingess and desire to make a change.

If she is making excuses for her behavior and blaming her As during her M on her xH, that is a big

When you coach with Steve Harley the very first thing he does is ascertain whether the WS is willing to accept 100% responsibility for the A. I don't know if you can really build anything without that foundation because that's the basis for WS believing they need to make changes...and without having that belief system in place, any changes that are made are only going to be temporary.

Vibrissa,

That makes a lot of sense. It's funny how society has evolved ways to solve all these problems already. Perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss that wisdom.

Thanks,
-HappyHiker

Look carefully at your own motivations for trying to work with this new girlfriend.

1. If she were not as cute, such as a little overweight or marginal looks, would you put up with her cheating ways?

2. If she was not very good in bed, would you try and deal with her cheating and her cheating personality?

I maintain that if this woman had not hooked you in bed and hooked you by her looks and her "personality" and her "good acting" you would be OUTTA THERE>

She is a good actress, she pretends to love you but htis is not real because she is emotionally with other men, and she looks good, good in bed.

Yes, a recipe for complete heartache. I can see it coming. Your life will be ruined.

She will talk you into marrying her
Then, you will have to adopt her kids
Then, she will cheat on you from day one of the marriage
She may try and become pregnant if she still can
Then, you are stuck for life and she will continue to use your money and cheat on you again and again and again.

What a nightmare! Can you zip up your pants enough to see your way out of this terrible nightmare you are being drawn into?

Or will you let your penis make this important decision for you?

No offense, Hiker, but I was also wondering why you are putting up with this?

You can't change her. She has to want to do that for herself. Usually marital history, consquences of a expensive D, kids, selling the house, etc etc provide motivation for change for a WS. She doesn't have any of that and she has never accepted responsibility for her actions.

I am not sure where you are seeing hope in this situation?

Gamma,

She does have a lot of drama with exes, yes. One in particular is very complex in that he and his new wife defrauded her out of a very large amount of money. She is a victim of a felony as a result of her kind nature. She is in the process of trying to get the police to take on the case. She had told me that she was no longer in contact with the man (her lawyer even told her not to contact him), and that is not the case - she has contacted him frequently the entire time we have been together.

I have felt for a while that she has become obsessed about him, and I have raised my concerns with her several times.

I don't believe she wants a relationship with this man still, but nonetheless, it is the lies/deceit that hurt me. It concerns me that she felt there was a need to hide this, particularly when we talked about it daily, and I openly gave her my full support, sympathy and advice.

She has now told me (once more) that she has broken off contact with him completely. I have no way of knowing this for sure, but I am hopeful she is not lying this time.

Yes, I believe she is remorseful for what she has done. I truly believe that.

-HappyHiker

More evidence of poor boundaries. She has no business being friends with a married ex - she is a threat to this man's wife and his marriage. ESPECIALLY because she keeps this relationship secret. She gets a thrill out of it. It feeds some needs that she has.


It isn't her kind nature that put her in this position. It is the rush she gets off of being admired by men who should be off-limits to her.

Kindness would be removing herself from this man's life and marriage so that it has the opportunity to grow. It is selfishness that keeps her in it. HER need for the drama and rush she gets from this relationship is more important than him and the health of his marriage.

On top of that - he doesn't even sound like a good guy. If he were it could be somewhat understandable - but he has USED her, and yet she maintained contact.


She has the ability to lie to you DAILY to your face. And you have no way of telling if she is being truthful, she is so good at it. In fact, had you not snooped a bit and found her out, she would STILL be lying to you. Right now.

Actually - you have no way of knowing that she isn't lying today. She is a pretty good actress, obviously. This could all be a show to keep you tied to her.

Don't you see how dangerous this person is?

She's remorseful, I don't doubt that. But she's remorseful she got caught and has endangered her relationship with you. She's remorseful that she's being forced to give up her secret second life. She's remorseful that you feel bad.

But I seriously DOUBT she is remorseful that SHE was the one that hurt you.

As evidence I present:


THAT is not the attitude of someone with true remorse. That is the attitude of someone who got CAUGHT and wants to avoid taking responsibility for herself.

Agreed. If she was in contact with one ex I might believe she was remorseful about it but she lied about a lot of different stuff. This was not a mistake, it is a habit.

Bubbles,

I do appreciate your comments, but you're actually getting a little offensive with this post. I've put my answers to your questions below.

-HappyHiker



I'm very attracted to her for many reasons, some of which I've shared at other times in this thread. Are looks and sex important to me? Absolutely. But honestly, they are just the icing on the cake on top of everything else I find immensely attractive about her. I was in a largely sexless marriage for 12 years, and thankfully, I am now able to realize how important SF is for me (and not feel bad about saying that).

It seems like you are trying to cheapen our relationship by emphasizing that I find her to be sexually attractive to me. I'm not sure why you would do that. Do you view the needs of SF and AS to be in some way not as important as other needs? Perhaps they aren't in your top 5. I'm interested in your motivations for homing in on those two EN's specifically.


I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're saying that had I not felt in love with her for the reasons that I did, then I would be "outta here", then you are, of course correct. Again though, it seems as though you are attempting to cheapen our relationship, and I don't fully understand your motivations.


You're doing it again. Why do you view SF/AS to be so "wrong"?


And again...


And again...

This is just an observation, not a judgment - you seem overly-obsessed with the sexual aspect of my relationship. Why is that?

Vibrissa,


I didn't say they were friends -- they are not. She hates this man. However, there is a very strange obsession here that I don't understand. She does seem to derive a lot of pleasure from him and others simply because they are still interested in continuing contact with her. As we've already established - I think it's an ego-trip for her. A big, unhealthy ego-trip. She has put this need above everything else in her life, including her commitment to be honest to me.

Obviously, that needs to change.


I know. The ease with which she lies is very hurtful and scary, and I do question whether I will ever truly be able to trust her again.

You are acting from fear. You apparently do not believe you will be able to attract another woman who is cute, good in bed, but who does not lie with such ease and regularity.

You were in a 12 year sexless marriage (I know what that feels like, I have been in one as well). You are overwhelmed with the feelings that good sex brings, especially after such a drought. This causes you to ignore or discount the enormous red flags here. If you cannot trust her, there is no relationship worth keeping. No matter how cute she is or how good she is in bed.

I agree with Bubbles, there is nothing wrong with having SF and AS as high needs. But do not allow those needs to be so paramount that you discount all the love busters. You are entitled to a relationship with a woman who meets your needs for SF and AS. But who also is trusthworthy and honest with you and will negotiate in good faith to meet your needs.

That is NOT what you have with your current gf. And she shows no signs of being interested in being that way. But you won't know for sure whether she can or will until you insist she change her ways. Stop making excuses for her. Her behavior is inexcusable.

holdingontoit,

Thanks for your response.

I really do not feel as though I am acting from fear here. I have been there before (right after my marriage ended) when I was in a very vulnerable position and had no self-esteem at all. I leaped into a 1 1/2 year relationship that was nothing close to what I needed.

5 years have passed since then. I've had some very fulfilling relationships, learned a lot about myself, and perhaps most importantly - I now feel really very good about me.

So this is not about fear about not being able to meet another woman. I am certainly no "god's gift of women", but I am confident that I could attract anyone I wanted to have a relationship with, should I be in that position again.

This is about my desire to have a relationship with this woman because I believe we are immensely compatible, and think that is pretty rare and worth fighting for.

She has made some terrible mistakes and caused me to feel like crap over the past week. I believe she regrets that, and she is in the process of beginning to make the necessary changes in her life.

Thanks again for your post. I am sorry you are in (or were in) a sexless marriage. That truly is a terrible place to be, and you have my empathy.

-HappyHiker

I bring up sex because I see it as "her looks and good sex would be the only way you would continue dating such a cheater".

Without the "good looks", the "good sex" the good "acting job' she is doing on you, you would promptly dump the "reapeat lyer and cheater".

When I dated my husband he was cute, sex was great, and he had a great personality. I was falling in love with him after 4-6 months.

The difference is that he never lied to me, he never cheated and did not and would not cheat on me, he never had inappropriate friendships with other women, he brought up the rules about talking to members of the opposite sex so we could both protect our relationship and marriage, etc, etc, etc,.

You have been shown her dirty morals and filthy character. She may seem nice but a nice person never cheats and lies.

I dont believe a word about the "felony" these former husband and wife are foisting on her nor do I believe a word about how she had a lot of money and they ripped her off. I would hire a PI to determine if this is true, sounds like a likely story given all the other issues, her lies and cheating, and the drama she spews out every day.

If you find she is lying about that felony issue "also" along with her other lies, then what will you do then? Continue to work it out with her? Accept that she will lie to you from time to time and that you can let it go? Accept her that she may cheat on you but you can forgive that too?

Wow man, what ARE you willing to accept in a friend? A lover? A date? A marriage partner????

Another interesting question for you:

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE ENTIRE TRUTH ABOUT THIS WOMAN OR NOT??????

Are you in denial and would you prefer NOT to know and rather believe all her lies and drama?

Bubbles,


I guess somehow I have come across to you as a very shallow person that is only looking for sex with a cute woman. Or perhaps you have an issue of your own - an insecurity - that is causing you to view me that way. Perhaps you do not view yourself as cute, or able to have good sex. Or perhaps you are in a bad marriage in which you see no hope. I certainly understand that feeling well, as I've been there myself.

However, I would ask you to please refrain from stating your own opinion as fact or (worse) my opinion. It really detracts from the substance of what you are trying to say, if indeed there is substance.

Thank you,

-HappyHiker

HH,

I don't think anyone here thinks you are a shallow person, myself I just see this woman as being a manipulative person who does a good con job and has learned to leverage her beauty. She makes other people feel good about themselves and then BAM she changes.

It is not the fault of a person who is taken in by a liar, it is the liar who lies, your fault is only that you trusted her.

God Bless
Gamma