Wouldn't it prevent the whole problem if people just didn't sleep with people they weren't married to? You may not know if a person is married to someone else or not, but you almost always know if you are married to them or not.

What does "emr" stand for?

I believe it is Extra Marital Relationship

Tew - There are several people here that will NEVER see any "gray area" to anything. Some view everything as black/white and you will just not win some arguments.

I can tell you that the "OW" in my situation actually isn't a "skank" nor is she a homewrecker. There ARE situations where a home is "wrecked" WAAAYYYYYY before any "OP" enters into the picture.

My divorce (still pending...maybe will/won't happen) had absolutely NOTHING to do with the OW. And even though my STBX cheated on me too - I don't think the OM was the cause for our divorce either. I think he is a worthless POS, but that's just because he and I were friends for 20 years. THAT is a dif't story all together.

So - you are right that the OP is not always acting in a selfish manner. Keep in mind that many replies are from ex's that had a waywards spouse and were cheated on. Their opinions will certainly be skewed/bias based on their own experiences, and while much of that advice can be very valuable...much is just spewing of hate. It happens.

Captain: Every OP is acting in a selfish manner at the time they choose to sleep with someone else's spouse. The state of the marriage they are intruding upon is completely irrelevant. It is still wrong to sleep with another person's spouse. It just is, and there is nothing anyone can say to justify that. It doesn't matter if the marriage was going to end anyway. There is no gray area when it comes to Adultery. Even if the home is already "wrecked" as you say, entering into a new relationship before you are divorced is wrong. Plain and simple.

I am a FWS. The OM in my case claimed that his marriage had been "over" for some time before our A and that I had nothing to do with its dissolution, but that doesn't matter. Even if that were true (and who really knows) it doesn't make what I did any less wrong. It was wrong for me to sleep with a married man. It is always wrong to enter into any relationship with someone else's spouse.

The point is, from the OW/OMs perspective, you just don't know. My husband was abusive and I wasn't perfect, but was a good wife and we were committed and working on improving things. Had two wonderful kids and a very good sex life. I walked on eggshells around him and gave him loads of space as he required it. But it worked for us. This is NOT what he told the OW. The story was quite different. He told her our marriage was over, that I hadn't had sex with him in 5 years (HA!) and that I was an angry controlling shrew. Couldn't be farther from the truth. The crazy thing is that I've heard the exact same thing from married men I've been dating. I've also been told by men I was dating that they were separated, divorced and/or divorcing when it wasn't true. I didn't know it at the time, but because I didn't know THEM, I withheld intimacy until I was sure. If I didn't see enough of their lives to know for sure, I moved on quickly.

I sin and do enjoy sex outside of marriage. But only within a trusted, time tested relationship. (And a background check or two). Bottom line, men will lie to get in your pants sometimes. Women too I'm sure.

And, one last comment on that, if you don't do the work to make sure the man doesn't have a family on the side, you ARE selfish. Maybe not an awful person, but selfish for sure. Open your eyes and take care with the lives you are potentially messing with. No excuse for driving with your eyes closed either. You're culpable in that case too for the lives you are wrecking. If the OW in my case would have reached out to me just to check his story, or even just took a peak at my FB page, things could have been very different.

This is the same rationale that looters use when they feel entitled to steal from a store with an already broken window ...

The OP is a looter.

ITA...and the WS always claims the M is "wrecked"...Do you know of any that say "My marriage is goin great, will you sleep with me?".....and I truly believe that a M would have a chance, even if the WS claims its "over", if the OP did not enter the scene...once the OP is in the mix, yeah the M has little hope...

IF THE MARRIAGE IS OVER THEN WHY ARENT THEY DIVORCED! Call the BS an tell them.."Im gonna sleep with your Husband, is that okay with you?" Then you will find out if the M is "OVER".

Wrecked by the people IN the marriage.
It is never a smart idea to enter into an affair with a STILL MARRIED person, a person who has been a party to wrecking their own marriage.
A STILL MARRIED person who has a still terrible marriage, based on their own lack of skills, integrity, responsibility.

Not-yet-divorced dating is irresponsible behavior.

How about..."show me the divorce papers." if the M is over.

Capt - this is WAYWARD thinking.

Your OW IS a homewrecker.

Think about it. Your wife WANTED to reconcile at one point. But that didn't happen? Because you were too wrapped up in OW to fix your marriage.

If the OW REALLY cared about your wife and children, she would NOT have gotten involved with you, realizing that her involvement would PRECLUDE any possibility of salvaging your marriage.

Now, when you are ready to save your marriage, your wife has moved on. Who's fault is that? YOURS. Who helped you get to this point? OW.

If she had the sense to keep her legs closed and NOT sleep with a married man, you wouldn't have fogged out so much that you THREW AWAY the opportunity for reconciliation when it was offered to you.

She is a skank. Her relationship with YOU was more important to her than the chance at providing your children with a safe, happy home. She saw that you were in a bad marriage and TOOK ADVANTAGE of that situation to get what she wanted: YOU!

If she were a great person concerned with the stability and happiness of your children, she would have heard of your misery and directed you to get help and removed herself from ANY involvement with you. Instead she decided to 'help' and 'fix' you.

When I was a kid, I saw a little baby bunny separated from it's mother. I wanted to go to it and take care of it. It is in a woman's nature to nurture wounded creatures. My father stopped me, knowing if I touched the bunny it's mother would never accept it back, dooming the poor creature. If I had been selfish, like your OW, I would have run to the bunny anyways, because it would have made me feel good to care for the bunny. Instead, I left the bunny alone, knowing the BEST thing for it was it's mother.

Your OW went and touched the bunny KNOWING it was wrong and bad, and now your wife wont take you back.

I'd say she had a big part in the destruction of your marriage.


Until you see this for the lie it is, you will forever be stuck. Your OW had EVERYTHING to do with your inability to reclaim your marriage when the opportunity presented itself.


No, your selfishness is the cause of that. But the OM is the REASON your wife won't reconcile with you. He is the REASON she wont give you a chance to restore her family. She harbors the HOPE that things will work out with him.

If he weren't around, her maternal instinct would persuade her to give you another chance.

THAT is why I've encouraged you to expose OM, to make your wife distasteful to him. Dr. Harley has discovered, time and again, that when a WWs OM ditches her she often comes back to the father of her children.

You gonna trust the man who has saved thousands of marriages?

Or you gonna keep lying to yourself because it allows you to hold some good image of OW in your mind? (Which is STILL adultery btw)


You are wrong.

Flat out wrong.



No, it isn't hate - THEY are the victims here. If a woman is raped, but you know the rapist is a 'good guy' do you just tell her she's being hateful? And why is THEIR perception discounted? Because they're telling you something you don't want to hear?

Pretty bad reason to judge the truthfulness of a situation.

Affairs are emotional rape perpetrated on the betrayed spouse by BOTH affair partners.

I'm sorry Capt.

Your OW IS a skank, who only thought of HER needs when she started her relationship with you. Your marriage failed to recover because she didn't have the integrity to LEAVE your life when she saw the damage she'd caused.

Yes, Capt, what would your wife have said if the OW did this?

Marriage is TWO people, it takes BOTH of them, through a legal proceeding to declare a marriage OVER.

You don't get to say when marriage ends.

Because marriage isn't just about YOU, it's about YOU and your WIFE.

Oh, and Capt. I've never been cheated on. Not once. My husband is faithful. There is no Betrayed Spouse talking here.

I'm the child that grew up in the shattered fragments of adultery.

My Mom's OM IS a skank. I have no respect for him. He selfishly thought about what was best for his penis, instead of what was best for me.

But since I'm not the Adulterer, I guess I can't make a call. Only HE can determine if he's a good person, well him and my mom. Right? Not the victim that lived a broken childhood because of his selfishness?

Oops it wasn't selfishness, at least according to you, Capt... no he wanted the BEST for me.

Tew - There are several people here that will NEVER see any "gray area" to anything. Some view everything as black/white and you will just not win some arguments.

Winning an argument will not put any marriage back together.
That's why we're here on MB, right? To support and to build MARRIAGES, right?
We're not here to "win" arguments.
Pay attention to posters who have knowledge and understanding of the MARRIAGE BUILDERS program.
This is not an "argument-debate" site.
This is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.



I can tell you that the "OW" in my situation actually isn't a "skank" nor is she a homewrecker.

I can tell you, that an OP is never a MARRIAGE BUILDER.
Why defend the OP?
Who cares anyway?
The OP is never a good source for information about how to successfully build a wonderful MARRIAGE.
The OP is a distraction and a deterrent to rebuilding after adultery.
Who gives a damn about the OP?



There ARE situations where a home is "wrecked" WAAAYYYYYY before any "OP" enters into the picture.

Like I said, a marriage which has been wrecked by incompetent/ignorant people who have not "clue one" how to build a strong and successful marriage.
Which is what we are here to learn, right?


My divorce (still pending...maybe will/won't happen) had absolutely NOTHING to do with the OW. And even though my STBX cheated on me too - I don't think the OM was the cause for our divorce either. I think he is a worthless POS, but that's just because he and I were friends for 20 years. THAT is a dif't story all together.

You, your wife, and all the various OPs .... none of you are any good, have any skills or knowledge at offering relationship/marriage advice.
Any smart, rationally thinking person would turn to someone better for advice.
The skills required to sustain a long lasting loving marriage are never found with an adultery partner.
Never.


So - you are right that the OP is not always acting in a selfish manner.

Any person who chooses to make himself/herself an adulterer, is always motivated by selfish desire. They are never motivated by MARRIAGE BUILDING knowledge. NEVER !



Keep in mind that many replies are from ex's that had a waywards spouse and were cheated on. Their opinions will certainly be skewed/bias based on their own experiences, and while much of that advice can be very valuable...much is just spewing of hate. It happens.

Keep in mind that this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site.
Motivated by MARRIAGE BUILDING concepts.

Marriage building is not hate-spewing.
The OP and the adulterer are wrong.
Every time.
No exceptions.

It's not about winning an argument.
It is about supporting marriage.

I do not hate you.
I think your ideas are pathetic.
It is a terrible thing you do ... spewing pro-adultery on a MARRIAGE BUILDING support forum.

Shame on you for doing that !

The truth is very black and white. I am not surprised that you admit that your thinking is "gray" and fuzzy. Most waywards are very fogged out and this is reflected in many of your adultery promoting posts.


Nothing "wrecks" a marriage more than adultery. The solution to a bad marriage is not adultery, but to work to turn it around. Saying your marriage is "wrecked" does not justify adultery.

Any person who climbs into bed with a married person is a skank. They are defined by their actions.


You are mistaking "bias" for decency. Decent people HATE injustice. If you don't, then there is something wrong with your conscience. The fact that you are NOT speaks to your own bias and lack of conscience.

And of course you would be biased because you are an active adulterer. You have an emotional investment in defending and rationalizing adultery. Because you are an active adulterer, you would be about the LEAST objective person on this thread.

Please note that several FORMER adulterers have posted on this thread and they are as outraged as the BS's.

But since the home is not getting better due to the affair, the term is completely accurate. One is either a home wrecker, or a marriage advocate. You are right, there is no grey. Grey is what gets folks in trouble. It's those loopholes and whatnot that simply make the victims miserable, but help those who are doing the wrecking lie to themselves to justify their behavior.

That grey area really doesn't help their betrayed spouse. So why even go there?

This site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not affair justification. Anything one does that doesn't build a stronger marriage will not get a warm reception here.

To expect otherwise is to be deep in the fog and out of touch with reality.
But does any of that help build a stronger marriage? Of course not. If you don't come out of those events with a better marriage to your original spouse, then they are factors that lead to the ultimate destruction of the marriage.

No one is saying they are the ONLY factors. However, they are pretty major and only made things worse, not better.

Again, this site is MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Behaviors that are known to destroy marriages are discouraged.

Disagreement is never hate. Dissent is never hate. It is intellectually dishonest to call a different opinion hate. In fact, if some is suggesting you examine your thinking because they disagree and believe your line of thinking is destructive, it's the opposite of hate to warn you of the potential downside of your line of thinking.

So if I disagree, and I tell you why I disagree,that is NOT HATE. Hatred would be to remain silent and let you hurt yourself.

So to call those who disagree with you as spewing hate simply demonstrates that you are either still deep in a fog, or can't recognize when folks are trying to help you avoid a nasty, painful experience.

For me, it's like I see you driving off a cliff, so I'm warning you of the dangers of driving off that cliff.

Your response is that I'm "spewing hate" and you are saying, "look nothing bad has happened yet!"

Yet most know that when you hit the ground, it's going to hurt.

That my friend is not hate, but concern.

So you can try to fool yourself and tell us that we are being hateful. Or you can accept that we are not full of hate, but rather full of concern.

I've done my job, I've warned you. If you want to treat that good intentioned warning as hate, you are free to do so. However, you are most certainly wrong about it being hate.

Dissent is NEVER hate.

ITA.

What is the point of coming to a marriage-building site and trying to defend an OP? Where there are people (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION) suffering the devastating effects of affairs and trying to rebuild their marriages??? I mean really???

IMO that act alone demonstrates the selfishness and thoughtlessness of the posters that do this here, the very thing you are trying to tell us you are not...

Guys/Gals - I DO see your point...really I do. I just HATE living in a world of "absolutes" and I understand you think my need for a "grey area" is me being in my "fog" and that's fine.

But - just so I understand let me play out this scenerio...
***disclaimer*** this is NOT "my situation" at all - completely made up purely to make a point that NOTHING is ever "black / white".

**here we go**
Married Woman meets a single man
Single Man does not know woman is married
They go out on a few dates (woman is cheating obviously)
Develop a close emotional connection - they do have sex eventually.
After a couple months the married woman admits (or gets caught) to cheating and single man is (obviously) pissed off and leaves married woman.
Couple months go by...married woman has divorced her husband (or husb div'd her) - and she sees the man she was previously dating. They decide to get together and date again. End up in a relationship.

Are you telling me that this OM is a selfish low-down home-wrecker or if the roles were reversed would she be a low-down skank? I think not.

Actually Captain, yes to your last question.

The thing is, there are ALWAYS signs that a person isn't being honest with you. No one has any business sleeping with someone they've only gone out with a few times and don't even know well enough to be able to tell that they're being dishonest. A married man/woman isn't going to invite you over to their house, or let you call their home phone number. They aren't going to introduce you to any of their friends or family. They are only going to be able to spend certain times with you (ie, when their spouse isn't around). If you don't know a person well enough to know enough about their lives to be able to tell whether or not they are married, then you have no business getting into bed with them.