Teaser,
Look, your husband did something very hurtful and selfish for a long period of time in your marriage........
I would if I were you stop getting the details of what happened and just know that it was bad and disrespectful....the facts will just keep you in a place that is unhealthy for you........
You know it was hurtful and disrespectful and that he is the kind of man that will make decisions where your best interests aren't considered........
I know what you mean about the self esteem thing, I also think this might be the toughest thing for us to deal with, but really it had nothing to do with us, the decisions your husband made were all about him and his selfishness.......and the kind of person he is capable of being...........
It's hard for us to believe that the man we loved and devoted ourselves to could be this person we don't even know anymore........I think it's easier for us to think it must have been something we did wrong or how me must not have been good enough in some way.........All that is bull****, we are good people that didn't deserve all this to happen to our lives........no one deserves this........
What you believed in is gone for me as well.......but we have ourselves and our futures to believe in, no matter if they are with us or not.......
We did nothing wrong ...............
Start from today with your life, forget about getting anymore info that is hurtful, accept that what your husband did was painful and his choice......
If you want to work things out with him, you have to decide to focus only on today and tomorrow and accept the past and let it go.........
Understand that this choice is for you, understand that you are making this choice for you and the reason you are making the choice to let it all go.....
This is hard for you but a must for your survival........don't let him the affairs take anymore of you away.........you have to take you back even though you are living through hell right now............
(((hugs)))))

Right at this moment I am not even capable of a cohesive thought.

I guess one of the things that is paralyzing me right now is just how far back the cheating goes. It makes a mockery of a big part of my life.

I am just not sure what is real and what is not anymore.

The enormity of this is becoming overwhelming.

This is even worse than D DAY, and I thought it could not get any worse.

I feel like running to the lawyer's office and just say file the papers, because I am thinking that step is the first to taking back control over my life and me.

Sorry to ask you this and you do not have to answer. But your WH is 59...after all the A's he had, is he still able to have an erection and satisfy you sexually? It seems to me that a man that age and with many many sexual encounters must have made himself pretty dry or must have had sexual problems all along.
You do deserve better than this guy, and if you want to R the M you really have to make sure you concentrate only on the NOW and not on what happened before.
blessing

teaser, please don't make a decision in the throes of this agony. If you must disconnect, Plan B. Making decisions based on emotion never work well.

Have you requested he do the timeline exercise?

It may be time for you to start Planning a Plan B. You cannot recover if he keeps lying to you. Why is he no longer posting here? Do you know?

Atena

Thats an excellent question.

Over 10 years ago he told me he was impotent. I thought that the reason for this was his diabetes as he is insulin dependent. Because I thought that the issue was the diabetes, I felt really bad for him and so I decided that I would give up my own sex life in the interest of not hurting his manhood.

This is one of the reasons why I was blind sided by his affairs-because I was under the impression that men who have this type of problem are not likely to have affairs but instead would go to prostitutes. This has been one of the major issues post D Day, cause when I asked him about sex with OW and his problem his response was "we worked around it". That sent me into a rage cause I thought, damn, I didn't even know that there was something to work around, and my next thought was, OMG I was not even given a chance to work around "it".

So really, what does that say about me? that I clearly don't have what it takes to turn a man on-thats my conclusion.
He has started posting here and when referring to SF with me, he says his mind is not there, so I had to ask him, when you were servicing OW, did you have to have an erection to do it? he said no. So then, I guess the problem is me. To put it bluntly, he says that he is unable to sustain an appropriate erection to perform conventional sex, so his sex life is limited to oral sex.

Of course, what is now coming to my mind is that perhaps the problem with the erection may have nothing to do with his diabetes but more with his lifestyle.

Much as he has said that he is trying to R the M, he just has not been able to get it up for me on any level.
I just don't move him in that way!!!

Vibrissa

I have no idea why he is not posting here anymore. I can ask him to come back on board if you want me to.

I am sorry but right now I am just feeling so low, it is really really dark where I am right now.

I never thought that there was any lower to go. guess I am finding out differently.

Teaser, right now you have nothing to hold on to except yourself, your husband has a lot of problems that don't have anything to do with you......
He has lead himself away from you and your marriage and he has probably had to disconnect from you in order to pull off all what he did.......that's his problem not yours........he had to justify somehow.........
If he thought about you the right way then he wouldn't be having the problem he is having sexually with you. This has nothing to do with your ability to do anything......his problem......
Until that changes for him the intimacy for the two of you can't change, it isn't all about the act, it's the closeness you feel for someone else.........therapy could help him........
You want to run I can see that Teaser, but slow down, is this really what you want or do you just think it will be easier, I can relate I have mutiple things going on at the same time that just make me want to run.......but being alone dealing with everything is not going to help me or you......working through a tough road is what will help us both.......have faith in you Teaser...........if you want to love your husband, do it. don't feel bad about it.........you said your husband wants to work on recovery let him, it's a slow road to fix what has happened, don't worry about the sex part for now, work on the relationship part, when that is better I think you will see the other part will fix itself.......
feel free to pm me anytime you want to vent.......

Hi Vibrissa

You asked me a question (well maybe a couple) that I did not answer.

First, I did ask him to do the timeline, he did not really write anything down and last time he spoke. oh for maybe about 10-15 minutes, yea, that covered about a5 years of marriage. The end result? he said nothing, absolutely nothing he had not said before. So I am in no better a position than I was before.

The next question you asked was why is he not posting here anymore? I don't think he can handle the truth, he wants to be mollycoddled, he generally has what I call pity party when things are not going the way he feels they should.
So given the things that have transpired, I believe that he feels that although he has been wrong, there is no need for me to react the way I do and it is my fault we are not making real progress.

The timeline isn't done in 10-15 minutes. It is a fully thought out exercise that takes time and consideration. It fully details EVERYTHING about the affairs chronologically, even stuff you already know.

Honestly teaser, I got the impression he doesn't want to do the hard work recovery takes, that's why he isn't posting here anymore. Those that get it, those that want to fix it, stay here and work, battering their heads against the vets.

You are not to blame for the lack of progress if your husband wont actively HELP you.

He is still wayward.

Not actively cheating, but wayward. He's still hiding things, wanting to play 'sweep it under the carpet' and wanting you to, in essence, 'get over it' so you can recover.

Recovery isn't about getting over, it's about pushing through. You can't push alone.

Plan B might be a good route for you to consider now.

Dear Teaser:

As you know, CGIR and I are working on a timeline - we expect that it will take weeks or months to get through.

If your husband really wants to make your marriage work, maybe he would like to post to CGIR; CGIR could share his apprehensions/fears (both imagined and real) about telling me the truth about his affairs and giving me the depth and breadth of detail I need. He could also comment about the changes he saw in me as I began to get accurate information.

Obviously, we are still a "work in progress" and I don't yet know what the outcome will be. Regardless of how accurate I feel the timeline is, we will still summarize with a polygraph; if CGIR refuses at that time or fails, our marriage will end.

But, I think CGIR is beginning to see that telling the truth hasn't caused the world to end and that it's more satisfying to have a real relationship than one based on lies. Will CGIR be open and honest with me going forward, especially about his thoughts and feelings? Only time will tell. But maybe gwill would benefit by talking to someone who's on the same long journey but a few steps ahead.

BrokenVase

Jessi

Thank you so much for your kind words.

I am feeling so out of sorts today, I am amazed. I thought that D Day was the absolute worse day and yet, here I am, I guess all the crap is just building and it will explode, I know this for sure.

Yes, I want to run, as far away as I could. I even contemplated packing a bag and just disappearing, not telling anyone where I was going.
How do I pm you?

Obviously, each person is different, but I was COMPLETELY unable to do this. I considered this point of view and tried hard to do it, too. The gaslighting and additional lies that CGIR needed to tell to support his fiction were destroying me.

Additionally, if your husband is unable to tell you the truth about the past, how will he be able to tell you the truth about the future? He will need to fabricate new information to maintain the old, and with these barriers between you, old lies and new, you will never be able to have an intimate relationship.

If, however, you decide that you really don't want the details AND your husband is willing to tell them to you, I recommend that he write everything down, seal the document and put it away, in case you ever want it in the future. At that time, you can either go through the information together, or you can choose to destroy it.

I will say it's been challenging for CGIR and I to get through some events in our timeline; in the case of his first affair, 21 years have gone by, and some of the finer details I would like have been blurred, compiled or lost with time. (I believe CGIR with this, as I was struggling to accurately remember some details about my affairs, which happened 27 and 17 years ago, respectively).

BrokenVase

And one last thing, that made a lot of sense to me, from "31 Reasons to Stop An Affair" (Reynolds, 2004):

Affairs result in less intimacy, not more.

Most people who are involved in an affair claim it is easier to be intimate with their affair partner than with their mate, but in reality it�s a comparison of apples and oranges. Intimacy is the ability to be totally transparent� to be known fully by another. In Genesis 2:25, the closing verse states, "the two were naked and they felt no shame." This is a great definition of intimacy, for it is about man and woman being able to fully share all of who they are � their dreams, their hopes, their fears, their love, and their positives as well as their negatives.The intimacy experienced outside a marital relationship, however, is different than intimacy in a marriage.The intimacy of an affair or of a couple dating is an �other�s validated intimacy.� In those relationships, as one begins to reveal themself to another, they are almost always rewarded by the other person revealing certain aspects of their life in return.They are literally validated for their attempts at intimacy and the result is a newfound feeling of closeness, and of finally being understood by another. Even as one shares the worse parts of him or herself, the other person generally will respond by validating them or by sharing the worse parts of who they are. In a relationship based on validation, partners feel it is safe to share what they think and what's important because they agree on almost all of the important issues and even if they can't agree, they are at least able to come to a point where they can agree to disagree without much effort. Outside of a marriage, it is easier to embrace differences.

Marriage, however, radically changes the dynamic. Once we cross into a marital relationship there is a paradigm shift. Now, instead of two individuals searching for the ways their differences complement one another, they feel the pressure to become one. Most married people begin to define the quality of their relationship with their ability to be on the same page, to agree on issues, to see things the same way, and to be who their mate needs them to be.When there is a difference, instead of it drawing a couple closer, it creates
tension and pushes them apart. It is in this paradigm that intimacy takes an interesting twist, for instead of creating closeness and validation, it now creates short-term instability. Each time someone reveals who they are, if it is different than their mate believes them to be, it creates a tension. Each time they disagree on an important issue, they are threatened and afraid they will never have life the way they wanted it to be. Inside marriage, intimacy becomes self-validated, and it takes integrity and personal strength to share fully who you are, to be authentic even when the other may not approve. For example, I've always believed the most intimate thing a person can do in their marriage is to share with their mate they are having an affair. With that statement, you are exposing yourself, revealing something they may not know (and most likely will not be happy about), but at the same time, you are exercising the integrity to be real. Paradoxically, intimacy in marriage generally does not create immediate closeness. However, in the long run, it can lead to growth, maturity, love, true intimacy, and a strong connection.

As you can see, intimacy in the marriage differs from that in an affair.Validated intimacy is easy and carries little or no risk, but intimacy in a marriage requires integrity, while providing the soil for personal and marital growth. Marriage becomes the place where a person develops character and personal strength.The intimacy of an affair isn't intimacy at all; it's just the longings of two individuals caught up in romanticism and infatuation. True intimacy can never be experienced until the paradigm of two being one is set in place by a marriage; then, and only then, can a person begin experiencing true intimacy.

BrokenVase

teaser - I understand Jessi's advice, however, you aren't wrong for wanting details. You want to know the true story of your life.

If you haven't read this, maybe it will help. Perhaps you can print it and give it to your husband:

Joseph's Letter:
To Whomever,
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn�t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn�t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I�m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you�re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn�t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don�t have.

Now let�s enter my reality. Let�s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what�s the difference, it�s not important.

Then later when I�m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can�t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don�t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn�t come from jealousy, it doesn�t come from spitefulness, and it doesn�t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn�t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn�t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can�t and the reason I can�t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

BV

I am definitely not the ostrich type, I can't just say I don't want to know. For some sick reason I NEED to know. Especially when you are now distorting my reality.
Simply because he is willing to work on the M does not negate my need for information. God knows, I wish I could stop asking, because I am the only person who is being hurt by this info.

I contacted this OW on FB and asked her if she would answer a few questions for me. She immediately wrote to WH to ask him to call her, I guess that is so that they could get their stories straight. So now I no longer want to talk to her, her truth would be too contrived.

I feel so stupid, getting worked up over an A that happened some 20 years ago, but the problem is, I have only just found out.

I wish that when I had the opportunity, I'd had an A, maybe I would understand things a whole lot better but I don't. I just don't.

I feel like I have sacrificed a great deal of my life for my WH, and the thanks I get was that he was out there having a grand ole time sleeping around while I was so piously sacrificing my needs in order to secure his manhood.

The worst part? he never asked me to. Hows that for a good laugh!!!

BV

All I can say is wow.

I will be reading your post a couple of times.
I am also e mailing it to WH.

One of the things I am feeling right now is that WH says he wants to work on the M, but to date I have been more pro-active.

This is all going to stop. It takes 2 to make a marriage work, he has already done all that he can to break it up, he now needs to invest the same, if not more energy into fixing things.

Thanks again.

This has been an awful awful gloomy day, the light that may have been at the end of my tunnel is no longer there.

Vibrissa

Thank you.

I could not have put it better myself.
I have already sent it to WH.

You guys have been a tremendous support for me, especially when I needed it so badly today, needless to say I did not go to work today.
Hoping tomorrow will be a little better.

((teaser))

It will get better.

With or without your husband, it WILL get better.

Stick to your plan, come here to vent.

We're here for you, hon.

Thanks to all of you.

MB has become such a crutch for me, its good to know that you guys are here.

Teaser,
It's all a process, I remember trying to make sense of everything I was feeling and how my whole world seemed like it was gone......
I asked for all the details of the affair as well, but I think we all get to a point of knowing the facts and not being able to change them and trying to live with the truth.......to much is not good for our health and our sanity .........I think it's a situation that doesn't have any answers that we can accept.....I think it's tough feeling like we had no control over what happened, our lives are destroyed by someone else's decisions......
I'm a fixer by nature and I have had to let go of the fact that the history can't be fixed or changed, I have to accept that it for what it was and let it die in the past.......
It is painful at first and you feel like you are going crazy and that there is nothing left for you but as time passes Teaser you will see things more clearly and you will be able to make some sound decisions for yourself and your marriage......
Be totally honest right now with your husband if you need him to do something to make you more comfortable ask for it, explain your feelings to him.....
This is your chance to get the marriage you want........if that is what you chose.....
No more of the same......