HHH, thanks for your response. I will have to go back and catch up on your thread - I'm interested to know what things your FWW is doing that help you the most. I saw where you two had done the EN questionnaires - what were your top ENs?

We've been having a rough couple of days since coming home from our trip. DH is very withdrawn. I try to contact him frequently via text or email, especially since I've had 2 days of meetings where I've been out of the office (day trips, fortunately - nothing overnight). Working on planning a trip to a pumpkin patch with our DDs this weekend. I mentioned it to him so if he wants to go he can, if not, I will focus on them. Bought the girls their Halloween costumes today on my way back from my meeting, and picked up croissants for DH and I for dinner this evening.

He's already gone to bed (at 7:30!!!) so obviously any time together is out tonight. I want to spend UA time with him but he tries to head me off at every angle. I don't know...it's just strange, last week before we went out of town he was sending me suggestive texts and wanting me to come home for lunch. Every time he does, or otherwise wants to initiate SF, I agree because I love having SF with him but also I want to try to meet his needs...sometimes it is hard to get in the right frame of mind though because it comes out of nowhere - I mean, he'll ignore me for days and then WHAM! want SF...I guess it will get better eventually, but it is hard when I try to initiate and get rejected.

I am trying to focus on regular workouts again - I was running pretty regular and it's become sporadic...I think I need to focus some effort on me. Physically I am exhausted and am still having stomach issues. I need to make an appointment at the doc's about it but there's part of me that just wants to stay sick, I know that doesn't make rational sense and maybe it's a need for me to punish myself (totally nonproductive) or to get pity from DH (not gonna happen). I have this thought that if there was something seriously life-threatening wrong with me maybe that would be enough to knock him off the fence. Stupid, I know. I have to take care of myself and be healthy for my DD's...that means exercise regularly, get a checkup, quit smoking (geez-oh-pete I am doing my part to support the struggling tobacco industry since my A was revealed in all its ignomy).

So I'm looking into gymnastics for DD#1 and think I may find myself a good yoga class or even a krav maga class. Maybe it will help to build my confidence back in myself again - is it a crazy idea? And being in better shape will be a benefit for DH too - not that I am in bad shape, I have lost 40 pounds and kept it off with running, and actually weigh less than when DH and I met (better shape too, other than the fact that after 2 kids things don't sit in the same place as when you're 21, lol).

Just feeling down again, was looking forward to at least trying to spend time with DH tonight. Gotta get the girls in bed - DD#1 will play on the computer all night if I let her.

If your H is anything like I was after my false recovery with my H, he has been withdrawn from you since your trip because even though he was still suffering while you were gone you managed to make deposits in his $LB. I was very bad about that, if my H did anything caused me to feel anything positive for him I would withdraw so that I could regain my emotional distance. Your H doesnt want to lose you, but he is trying to keep you at a safe distance, in case you are holding on to anything else that could hurt him, or you decide to hurt him again. Just keep trying, be as consistant as possible, and rebuild his trust in you. Once he starts to feel a little safer, he probably wont feel the need to push you away anymore.

I see a lot of things that I do and say in your H, maybe because of the false recovery, so I am hoping and praying for both of you even though I dont usually have any constructive advice to give. You seem to be doing very well so keep up the good work!

I'll ask her to read in and put down her 2 cents.

Though, from what she has told me, when I hit those spots, she just tries to smother me... without smothering me. Still has a habit of asking "what's wrong." I don't tend to directly answer - we are not far out from full disclosure.

The other day I crashed horribly, and when I got home I was so wrecked I couldn't even look at her.

In our case, though, I am doing everything I can to not withdraw, no matter how much I really want to.

It created a situation that night. She showered me with affection, and she had the desire to fulfill her need for SF. However, she didn't feel "right" initiating when I was so low.

As I'm sure you know, men have little "tattle tales" for arousal, and she noticed.

I however noticed that something was wrong. I got it out of her, and let her know that no matter how low I get, I'm not going to shut her out or deny her needs. That's how she ended up vulnerable.

Anyway, in short - if he isn't open to SF, or if he's going to bed early, or whatever - see if he will at least let you be there. DW just tries to keep some kind of physical contact; hold my hand, or stroke my arm.

Don't dig at him - that may be an invitation for LB's. You know it isn't right, but he isn't on the same path yet.

I'll look up our ENQ's. My top I think were Aff, Adm, SF, Conv, and RC. Her top 5 were the exact same top 5 with little variation.

That's what has been most painful about this whole experience; while it may have been a catalyst for a better marriage, things weren't so far gone that it was the only path.

If any of you want to catch up with my DH's side of things, I just learned he started posting on here. He is broken2009 and is posting on the SAA board. I read all over the boards and saw a new post and saw the nearly identical sig line. GloveOil had already figured it out.

I read his thread. I don't know if it was good or bad for me to do that. I won't post on it. I've told him he was free to read my thread ever since I started posting.

He's posting about exposing to OMW. We had not done that yet, although we'd talked about it, and I've posted about it on this forum. I told him about what I learned here. I didn't push it as I wanted it to be his decision. He had learned that OMW was pregnant and told me he did not want to cause her more stress during the pregnancy. At the risk of making a DJ, on his thread it sounds like he's implying that I am the one who doesn't want to expose. She deserves to know what an SOB she is married to. From some of the things DH said to me about OM after DDay, I don't think I am the only woman he's had an affair with. I remember him chatting on FB with me about married friends of his who were getting a D, and that the H in that sitch accused OM of having an A with his wife. He had also told me about his little group of friends and how cheating was a game for them. But HE wasn't like that, oh no, cause he said so!!! I was so stupid. I don't care about hurting him. I have no loyalty to OM. I do care about hurting OMW. I see what this has done to my DH and I wish I could spare her that. But I didn't care about hurting anyone when I was engaging in the A. I've destroyed two families through my actions. The lives of 3 (4, if OMW is really pregnant) children have been ruined because of what I did. Not telling her is not sparing her anything...she's already been hurt, she just doesn't know it yet. Like walking around with a tumor inside of you that you don't know is there, and then you go to the doctor and you get this diagnosis that you never suspected, and you learn your life is irrevocably changed.

The reason my relationship with OM ended when we were in high school was because I went to college, and he broke up with me shortly after I got there. I did encounter him again when I was at college, not long after DH and I had started dating. He had started attending the same school. I was 21-22 (?) at the time (DH and I started dating the February after my 21st bday - in 1993 - DH and I got engaged in 1995). I was typical college mode and still partying quite a bit. OM lived with 2 other guys in a run-down house not far from where I was living with my (female) roommate. DH was pretty much living there with me as well. OM invited me to a couple of parties at his house, which I went to with girlfriends. The "reconnection" DH is referring to is one night I had to go see a play for this drama class I was taking at school. I'd asked DH to go but he didn't want to and I didn't want to go by myself, so I asked OM. Stupid. After the play we went back and hung out at his house. His roommates were there, but at one point we were alone and he kissed me. I got up and left and never spoke to him again, until he contacted me on FB. OM even referred to this night before our A became physical. How he wished he'd gone after me that night, blah blah blah.

So even more reason that I should have done everything in my power to avoid OM throughout my entire life. I didn't tell DH about it while we were dating - it came out after DDay. Another lie from the woman he trusted. When DH and I were dating, I knew I wanted him, not the OM. I didn't tell him about the kiss because I wasn't going to let it happen again. We weren't married then, although that's what I wanted, and I didn't know the things I know now, or I would have put EP's in place against OM or anyone else. I would have already HAD EPs in place.

One part of me sees him posting here as a good sign - he's reaching out and he is looking for help and advice. I hope he finds what he needs here. This site has been a real help to me.

I don't know anymore. DH sounds so hopeless on his thread. He deserves to be happy, and maybe that is not with me.

Thanks for your response, HHH - you guys really aren't far off from exposure at all. I am impressed with your dedication to MB and trying to rebuild - I think it's a good thing you found MB so early in recovery.


This is nearly every day for us. DH doesn't want to make eye contact or anything with me anymore.


I try. He never liked me touching him before the A. Used to pull away from me, sometimes even physically push me away from him. He was always very physically affectionate with our DDs. He seems to tolerate me touching him now but I am sure it takes a lot of effort on his part to do so.


What to you becomes too much "digging" or even "smothering"? I don't push anymore. I'll ask DH if there's anything he wants to talk about and he always replies "No." End of conversation. I try to just let him know that I am there if he needs me.


The only one you have in common with my DH is Admiration (his #5). Although in my sessions with JC, she said that we really should redo ours at some point because the revelation of the A has probably thrown DH's needs out of kilter. DH's top one was O&H, which she said was fairly common for BS's after an A. I don't know if I do Admiration well - I think I get mixed up with things that he probably thinks are more Affection. Otherwise DH's needs are domestic support, financial support, and family commitment. So...washing dishes? Doing laundry? His mother actually comes in and cleans the house for us every other week, which is nice and takes care of a lot of that. Maybe he wants me to work more on the outside of the house. I work and bring home a decent salary. I quit my PT job so I bring in less money now. I don't question anything he spends money on anymore even though right now I am a little uncomfortable with some pretty large expenses, but I trust he knows best how to handle our finances. He had indicated he didn't think I spent enough time with the girls, that I only see them for a few minutes each night. Truthfully probably most of my time with them is child care duties - getting them up and ready for school, fed breakfast, etc. I'm working on that one, wanting to do more fun stuff with them.



Yeah, I agree. An A was an inexcusable way for me to get DH's attention. Every day I wish I'd learned all of this stuff years ago.

I had the exact same experience. Openness & Honesty was definitely on my list somewhere, but a much lower priority prior to the affair.


Complimenting him in public is a great way to hit Admiration. Expressing appreciation for work he has done hits it, too. Compliments on his appearance, physique, and hygiene help. Other ones I like when my wife hits them are expressing traits about me that she is trying to develop in herself, expressing confidence in my abilities, and recognizing progress I've made on things that are important to me.


Possibly. But remember there are four Intimate Emotional Needs that should be met exclusively by you: intimate conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment, and recreation. He should not be engaging in these with anybody else, nor should you. They pave the way for affairs... but also for good marriages. You should become one another's favorite recreational companions.


I'd submit working more outside the home is the opposite of what you want to do. You build the most Love Units doing things together, not apart. Focus on meeting those needs that are best met in his presence; they will give you the most result for your efforts. And the four Intimate Emotional Needs are not ones that either of you can ethically meet outside the marriage, while the rest reasonably could be.

Funny thing; O&H - actually #1 when we filled them out (dated 8/31/10 - within a week of D-day: Full disclosure).

I guess at this point, with the changes she has made in her daily schedule and behaviors, that it has pegged down accordingly.

Part of the plan we have is to go over EN and LB Q's quarterly. Like a performance review. Of course these things are going to change over time.

Sometimes, the most important ENs don't feel like the most important because they are, but because they are not currently being met properly.

DNM, thank you for the suggestions on admiration - those are good!


I agree on the intimate ENs. The biggest hurdle we face is that often I don't get the opportunity to meet these for DH, and when he is in withdrawal he doesn't try to meet them for me. I'm more than willing, and when an opportunity presents itself I seize it, unfortunately they don't come along often. I felt like we had some good RC time this past weekend but in his state I am not sure if I was successful in making any LB$ deposits due to the triggers he had over the weekend.



Working outside the home wasn't what I meant - I was referring more to the area of domestic support and helping him with the yardwork. The yardwork has kind of always been his domain - I have told him more than once I'm an "indoor sort of girl" - lol. But he's great at the landscaping and things like that - in our old house we won "yard of the month" once - he's got a knack for it. I've always let him handle it but maybe it would be rewarding to him to work on projects together.

As far as any other work, my job is 40 hours a week, more or less. I'm done with the PT teaching job that took me away one night a week (all that's left is submitting grades online) so 1.) that eliminates (hopefully) one of his triggers and 2.) doesn't take me away from home at night. If financial support is more important, I can probably pick up some teaching jobs online which I can do from home, but it cuts into time I could spend with him and the girls so I'd rather not unless we have to for financial reasons.


Again, risking a DJ here but I think it has not dropped for DH because of the FR I put him through and his inability to believe I am being totally O&H now. He's mentioned before how he doesn't know what I am doing at work, i.e., on the office phone, work computer, etc. and much of my A was conducted during work hours. Case in point, me missing a text from him a week or so ago was upsetting to him.

HHH, I'm glad your FWW's changes have helped you feel that she is trying to meet this need.



Excellent point. I keep trying with O&H but am not hitting the mark exactly right, I guess. I actually asked DH if he wanted me to quit my job and he said then he'd wonder what I was doing all day if I wasn't working.

I'm not having a good day anyway. I need to save up for another session with JC if I keep feeling like I am still in this stuck place.

Wulff,

Since you read your H's post, did you pick up on what has really been bothering him? It was the conversations you had with OM, about wanting to be with OM rather than your H. It was comparisons you made between OM and your H and your H lost. Your H feels he lost every time in everyway.

It is not you he is struggling with, it is himself. He does not feel that you value, respect, or want him. He cannot bring himself to believe what you say to him now, because of what you have said and done earlier. He knows he was lied to and could not tell.

I would strongly urge you to talk to the Harley's and address this issue of the BS feeling as if they do not and cannot measure up to what you got from OM. By they way, your H's feelings right now are very very common in a BS.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

**edit**

Rising, I read your post the other day and realized I'd forgotten to respond - but what you said definitely sounds like it could be us:


It seems we've developed this pattern of getting close and then pulling away. I start feeling positive, like we are making progress, and then I get the wind knocked out of me again. I spent part of the day at work scrolling through DH's text messages to me since January. Most of them are still saved on my phone. I'll do the same with emails. I deleted everything he'd sent me from the FR, texts and emails, from August through December in a fit of frustration at myself, because I couldn't read the things he'd said that were based on my lies. Anyway in texts and emails you can see it like a wave - moving toward intimacy and then away again.



I guess I am not always convinced he doesn't want to lose me...I mean, yes, he's here, he's stayed, he could have met with a lawyer months ago...but what we've got right now is not much different than what we had pre-A. Oh, I have boundaries in place now and I refuse to allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet any of my needs, where pre-A I obviously had poor boundaries and no EP's in place. He has said previously that he has stayed, that should be the proof I need that he loves me.



In my 2 sessions with JC we did talk about DH's feelings of being "second choice." That was one of the reasons she suggested the new wedding ring. I'd never mentioned to JC that I was thinking of buying him a new ring. Maybe I got it wrong, but I gathered from our sessions that it would be the sort of gesture that would show he was not my second choice.

I have a clear understanding now of why my A happened, and why it happened with who it did. It has nothing to do with OM being in any way "better" than DH. OM was - and is - a selfish, childish man who is used to getting his own way in everything. He pressured his wife into allowing him to open his own business despite her fears that it was risky. He knew exactly what buttons to push with me when he realized that I had weak boundaries in place. And apparently, after OM learned that I revealed the PA to my DH, he promptly got his wife pregnant, perhaps to seal her committment to him when she learns the truth. There were many things that annoyed me about OM that I simply ignored while I was in the fog, simply because I craved the attention.

Anyway, JC said to keep focusing on meeting DH's needs and protect him from my LB behavior. She said I'd need to do a lot pf "priming the pump," that DH had spent a lot of his "rocket fuel" towards recovery during our FR. She wanted me to work on writing our his needs list and coming up with ways I could meet each of his needs.

What else should I be doing?



thanks for the pep talk, GO...I had a bad day yesterday. Read your post this morning and resolved to do MY part to make today better! My part is the only thing I can control.

Keep chucking the buckets of sand into the lake, WPG. Storms will wash away some of the work, but you're rebuilding the foundation. Your BH posting here helps him, I think. Hope the two of you can get a session with JC soon.

I second that, and add; actions speak louder than words. And you are at a point where your word has been so damaged, that you have to let your actions speak.

Life outside the fog sucks, no? I do have some empathy for my FWW. She tossed our M aside to be utterly used. By a chicken-excrement slimeball... KID. Has to suck for her. Sucks for me.

He has taken a huge step coming here, but let's do something; your thread and things discussed in it is for you. His thread and things discussed in it are for him.

The advice each of you receive is for that person to follow, and these forums are not leverage in your negotiations. If he reads your thread, he should follow this, too.

If I may go media geek for a second, and quote Morpheus in the Matrix; "What was said is for you, and you only."

Hey Wulff

Thanks for posting on my thread, it is good of you to think of me. Thanks for considering me in your prayers.

I have read your H thread, you hold his heart in your hands and it is yours to lose.

You have to be very sensitive to anything that triggers him, be completely O&H without fear, anytime you think, oh I am not sure I should tell him that, you have to tell him! You have to bare your soul and let him know EXACTLY what happened. TReat him as though he is at the edge of a cliff about to jump..

YOu can do this, and I will be very disappointed if you don't....

Best of luck

Harmony xx

Sage advice, HHH. I probably should refrain from reading his thread. It's too painful. The post he just made hurts, and I want to address it...and sometimes I just want to scream. And cry. The thing about the wedding ring he just said. The only ring I ever saw OM wear was some stainless steel thing with a tribal design (imho, fugly, but not like I am the fashion police!). And only saw him in that maybe twice at lunch. I picked a ring out for H that was - I thought - a beautiful ring and different from the ring that represented our old M. I shopped around and put time into it, tried to find one that would be comfortable to wear. Considered what to have engraved inside (we'd never had our old rings engraved). Honestly my first thought (OK, second thought - first I burst into tears) was that I'd put the ring on craigslist.

Oh well. So I'm off his thread. Otherwise I am going to go back and forth and try to address his thread on my thread in some passive-agressive form of communicating and it is going to drive me crazy. It's just that he's not telling ME these things, you know? And it hurts to read them like this, like it's through a third person. Should I block him, so I don't see his posts? Do you think that would be better for me? I think if I keep seeing them it's like probing a sore tooth, if that makes sense. And he didn't invite me to read his thread, I only found it by accident. He didn't tell me he signed up for this site. He knows I post here.

So - OK, anybody who wants to follow both threads, if there are things I need to do to help him, please tell me here. I think I have learned my lesson on reading his thread.

I feel like I get up, I start to try and fight again and chuck that sand, and then I get beat down with a stick. I know that feeling sorry for myself is non-productive. I know I did this to myself. It is just getting harder and harder for me to bounce back.

Agreed on the O&H - this is something keeping him in the muck.

You MUST answer completely and honestly each and every question he may ask - do not dodge questions, no more half truths, no more excuses.

You are too far along to continue to disrespect his need for total honesty. (I am not assuming much here, WPG, but it seems that this is a major issue for him)

Just don't toss it out. He needs to ask what he needs to know, and you need to answer. This is part of the process of claiming responsibility for your actions.

Forgot to ask my FWW to chime in for you. Tonight I will tell ask her if she will read over your stories and see what she can contribute - what she sees from me and how she approaches it.

You can do this Wullf, get your strength together, don't forget to look after yourself too, Ihad anice full body massage last night, that worked wonders!! Don't let us down...

FWW and I have hot bubble baths, and on alternate nights, do full body massages.

This all doesn't have to lead to SF, WPG - and for one or the other of you it may or may not - but that EN meeting and bonding is fantastic.

Harmony (I keep wanting to call you by your old name, lol!), you are such a sweetheart! It's amazing how a bunch of strangers has become my best system of support!

JC told me the same thing, about if I ever think, "Hmm, this is something H doesn't need to know" that I should tell him immediately. He hasn't brought up the A directly in quite some time, other than the feelings of being second choice. Months ago - after I wrote him that 20-page novel (I'd have to go back in my thread to see when that was) - the one where I pretty much screwed up and wrote about feelings rather than details, which was what H wanted - we sat down together and went over the bank statements, credit card statements, cell phone bills, etc. to come up with a "timeline." I indicated each restaurant where OM and I ate lunch, the days I saw him, and the dates where I had sex with OM. I gave him all the dates from my work/personal calendars (even went into the computer system and noted where I have taken time off from work) to fill in gaps. At the time H seemed satisfied, although he still had questions I couldn't answer. And the reason I couldn't answer was because I simply couldn't remember - not because I was hiding anything from him. Like the cell phone log would show a phone call between me and OM and the call would have gone through a tower in the town next to us. H would ask why I was in that town at that day/time. His suspicion was I was headed for a meet with OM. There were days I simply couldn't remember every little thing I did or place I went, and those things make him think I am not being totally O&H.

He has not asked for all the gory details. I've told him sex with OM was not better, and it wasn't. OM just wanted to take care of himself. I didn't think about it at the time because I didn't want the attention to stop. H said at one point he wasn't sure if he wanted to know all the details, and I said something about the way his mind holds onto every single detail, but that asking questions was totally up to him...H imagines it far, far better than it actually was.

I feel like whatever I say it doesn't matter anyway. The words that come out of my mouth are just dirt to H because of how I lied for so long. It doesn't matter why I lied during the FR, all that matters is I lied. I try to be consistent and loving with my actions but I am just so tired. I know recovery can take years, but I can't help but wish that something would happen to push us farther down the path to a loving and recovered marriage.