First let me tell you that this is not even the 5 year relationship, but it is one of te As I discovered on D Day. They communicated almost every week by e mail, flirtatious e mails. she actually lives in NY,

She is down here right now and I made a derogatory comment about her, and, well.... the rest is history.

Melody

Just wanted you to know I asked him if he has responded, he says that he is thinking about what to say.

So now he will think long and hard and see how he can explain his way out of this one, when he does this, it usually ends with him saying I misunderstood, or that was not what he was trying to say.
It will be interesting to see how he gets out of this one because one cannot misinterpret the word "pretty"

Well, of course he's being an insensitive clod. Did you ask him how pretty she was? I think all BS's ask. I know I did. I suspect the OW was prettier than me - I've never seen her. And would I have felt better if he'd affaired-down, looks-wise? No.

H has always told me this: "It wasn't the looks, it was the hits (his phrase for the attention/admiration she gave him)."

Mb
You know something? somehow, for whatever reason (which I have yet to analyze) I think I would have felt better if he had said it was just about the sex, but he went to great lengths to let me know that it was NOT all about sex. That hurts like hell.
Listen, deep down I always knew it was not just about sex, but you would think that a WH who claims that he is so sorry for the pain he has inflicted on his BS would go to great lengths not to hurt her more. Of course this does present a dilemma because I want the truth don't I?
But at the end of the day, NONE of the 5 As I found out about on D Day were one night stands so I guess the real answer is that, any A that lasts that long has to be about more than sex, am I right?
He has started posting here, maybe you guys can better answers from him because I sure can't and the thing is, whenever I start asking questions, he gets this attitude that is a put off to any further questions, in the past, this is the tactic that he used when discussing personal issues and I would react by backing down, so nothing would be discussed. Now when he was originall asked about the reason behind his As he said we never talked. So it bounced right back to me, because of course he was incapable of coming to me and say lets talk about our problems.
Now when he gets the attitude, I don't back down, I keep asking, then his attitude escalates, which then triggers my rage. I have never seen someone who has screwed up on so many different levels, get so angry when being questioned. This sense of entitlement to his silence is slowly driving our marriage down the tubes and he appears not to even realize it. I cannot and will not attempt to work on this marriage alone. It takes 2 and right now the ball is squarely in his court.

He sounds like my FWH. His attitude is intended to discourage you from asking questions. It is uncomfortable for WS to own up to their misdeeds. Your H learned this somewhere in his life, and it appears to have worked for him, which is why he does it.

That habit of bullying his way out of owning his sh*t will need to end. When you're trying to communicate and he does that, say "Your attitude is discouraging me from asking questions. You are bullying me and that's unfair. Can we look at my question again without any bullying?" And don't let him sidetrack you by veering things off to a discussion about attitudes. Stay with your question. When he says "Oh yeah?? Well what about all the times you...blah blah blah" you respond with "I understand that's a concern to you, and we'll talk about that. But right now I would like you to give me a straight answer to my question." Then ask the question again. He needs to learn that the question doesn't go away if he cops an attitude.

Caveat: Try not to LB him when his answer isn't something you want to hear. If you want the truth, be prepared to get the truth. It may be ugly. Distance yourself emotionally from it long enough to look at it without AOs. Then thank him for being honest with you.

FWH told me it wasn't about the sex, too. That's a common comment from waywards. They are looking for something emotional, and it escalates to physical. Look at it like this: A's usually start out with flirting, escalate to private meetings, escalate to touching, escalate to declaring they're soul mates, escalate to...see how it typically ends up with the 'ultimate' act? I mean, how many times can one person tell another person that they're 'soul mates' until it starts getting old and a 'bigger bang' is required to get the same emotional rush?

I think it's harder for a BW to hear that there was an emotional component instead of 'just' a sexual one.

MB
The problem is that he has yet to come clean and tell me exactly how it all started. The closest he came was to say that they worked together, got to talking and from there the relationship grew. That is the total extent of his explanation.
I keep asking because, remember, this was a "friend" and the last I knew of their relationship, they both used to complain to me that the other did not like them, so I am asking, how did they get to the point of having a 5 year relationship, who started it? Given the amount of destruction that has occurred, the family relationships that have been severed, I ask him, did you guys talk about the ramifications of your relationship? he says never, I ask, did you guys ever discuss that the relationship should end, he says never, WTH? I can't believe that 2 people who are married and are having an affair. NEVER discuss their spouses/marriage. I do not accept that.
And by the way, whenever my questions get too specific, the answer is "I can't remember"

So MB. I get very few chances to say thank you for being honest with me.
I swear to God at this point I don't see how I will ever be able to trust him again, much less have any respect whatsoever for him.

Shuck and jive, bob and weave, lie and deny.

Be careful! A very close second tequnique is to answer the question by saying something horrible, designed to shock and hurt you, (under the "innocent" guise of the truth) to get you to stop asking the hard questions.

I have lived with this (but not at the level you seem to be, for 4.5 years.)

Pshew! Your H sounds very familiar to me.

teaser - it seems to me you're both flailing around a bit. You need him to be honest, but his honesty hurts. He doesn't want to be honest because he feels punished. He uses words like lambast to describe your discussions.

I know you are experiencing incredible pain and shock. What he says is going to hurt, no two ways about it. If his affairs were ONS and not relationship, then the fact that he threw your relationship away for nothing is hurtful as well. If the girls were ugly, then you'd feel just as bad b/c he was so desperate he'd take an ugly person over you.

There are no un-hurtful answers. They will all hurt. That is why adultery is so ugly.

You need to accept that it will hurt no matter what he says, and he needs to accept that no matter the answer he gives, he will hurt you because he HAS hurt you.

But you also need to control this cycle of pain or it will control you. In order to rebuild you need to be in charge, not the pain.

A recommended tactic is that you limit discussion of the affairs to a set time each week. You write down your questions, and for a set time you ask and he answers questions. Set a timer. When the timer is done you stop. Then give it a week to process. If you have more questions, write them down. Don't bring them up except during the designated time to talk about it. Work during the rest of the week on rebuilding - on spending pleasant UA time together.

Limit and control the process of working through the A's so that it doesn't consume you and drag you down into an inescapable well of despair.

At the end of an honesty session, THANK him for his honesty. His honesty is essential to your recovery and you need to let him know that. He needs to know there is some good that will result from all this pain.

((teaser)) I know this is hard, they say recovery is the HARDEST. You're gonna need incredible strength to get through this, but I think you'll surprise yourself at what you're capable of.

Vibrissa
I will try this for sure.

But please tell me what to do when he DOES NOT give an honest answer?

Cause at the end of the day, that is what has been sending me into a rage.

The last rage episode went like this.

I had repeatedly accused him of being in love with OW (5 year A) and he steadfastly denied it.

So I came across an e mail from a female, who I assumed was a casual friend because there were not too many mails from her, she ended the mail by wishing him luck with his new love.
So I go to him and say, you keep denying to me that you were in love with OW but you told this person that you had a new love? so you admit it to her but not to me at a time when you are supposed to be open and honest; his response? I never told her I had a new love, so I asked, so she is just making that up? his response, no man tells a woman he is having an affair with, that he has a new love. WTF? I said , you were having an affair with her too? so then he tries to back pedal and say, well I did not mean I was having an affair, you are taking it the wrong way.
The reality of this discussion is that it further shows me how distorted my reality has been of my life, because this means he was cheating so far back that I don't know now when he was ever faithful to our marriage.

Thats a hell of a thing to take on. here I was thinking the last ten years was all I had to worry about!

Hey Barbie

Yea, know what you mean.
Unfortunately for him, he is not even good at the bob and weave, thats why we keep getting into fights.

I keep telling him, it is an insult to my intelligence when he tries these tactics, I may not know what the truth is, but I do know when I am being lied to.

I'd avoid arguing. Simply state that you do not believe his answer because his story doesn't line up. Let him know his dishonesty is hurtful to you and impedes your recovery and you refuse to stay in an un-recovered marriage. As he is unwilling to be honest, you will have to end this weeks session. Next week begin where the dishonesty began the week before.

If he truly doesn't know an answer or doesn't remember, that is an acceptable response. If he doesn't remember ask him to think on it over the next week and see if he remembers at the next session.

If you still sense dishonesty, then ask for a polygraph.

You need to be satisfied you know the truth!!! It is essential, but don't be your own worst enemy. You need to adopt behaviors that will HELP you get what you need: truth. This means, as hard as it is, you have to avoid losing control and letting your emotions run you.

You are letting your emotions take control. YOU need to take control. You need to be honest about what you think, feel and believe - but degenerating into fights isn't going to help you. It prevents honesty.

If you are hurt and need to cry - ask him to hold you while you cry if you'd find it comforting. Be very explicit with your needs.

Ok I get what you are saying and I am totally in agreement that my emotions are getting the better of me. I truly know that this is something I have to work on.

Him holding me when I am crying does not work for me, just because I see him as the source of ALL the pain I am going through right now, I feel that he is the last person to give me comfort.

I have to tell you that for someone who has been married for 34 years, I am extremely lonely, I feel unloved, I feel despondent, I have absolutely no sense of intimacy. Isn't that funny? while all this time he has been making others feel good?

Because another problem between us is the fact that he LIED to me telling me that he was impotent when obviously he was not, when I asked him how could he have been having such racy sex with OW (as evidenced by their e mails)when he was supposed to be impotent, his response was "we worked around it" Well that sure as hell made me feel better about myself, I was not even given an opportunity to work around anything.

(((teaser))) I know it hurts. I'm so so sorry.

Stuff like that you discuss during affair-talk time. If him comforting you doesn't help then be clear that after affair-talk time you need some time to yourself to process what you've heard.

Try, try, try to make positive UA time possible. You need to provide him the opportunity to meet your needs. You need to create positive associations with your husband to combat the pain he's put you through.

It will be hard. It will be awkward. It will be painful. But you gotta push through. You two need 20+ hours a week aside from affair-talk time. THAT is what you need to create the intimacy you crave - time together meeting needs.

On top of the time, you need honesty.

So create your plan to foster honesty. Honesty from YOU as well as him. Remember - fighting with him gets you no where. All you need to do is communicate what YOU are thinking and feeling. "That hurts me because ______." "I don't believe you are being truthful." "I need _____ from you right now."

Simple statements of fact. You can't argue about what you think or feel. If he says you shouldn't feel a certain way, politely inform him that is a Disrespectful Judgment and you cannot change the way you feel.

Hey Mb

You guys said that when I felt like ranting I should come here and rant, so here goes.

Looked at my confiscated e mails last night, discovered that another one of WH's whores was brought to my house. I confronted him with the information and he admitted it, of course he tried to tell me he had already told me this (and yes I slipped, rage galore!!!) and of course I told him something like that, I would not forget, so then he went on to say that it only happened once; yeah right, and there is a bridge that I could probably buy cheap, real cheap.

I am FED UP.

How much more of this am I supposed to take?
Where does this end?

You know, if when confronted he had just said, yes and I am so sorry, it would NOT have been ok, but what tripped me over the edge is when he tried as usual to wiggle, bob and weave, by saying he had told me this before, and she did not stay long. WTF?????

(((teaser)))

Remember, rage here, not at him.

I can't remember, have you asked him to do a timeline exercise?

This is where he sits down and details EVERY event he can remember regarding his infidelities and puts them in a chronological order. Dates, times, events, locations.

If he hasn't it may be useful to ask him to do this, then go over it and ask questions and clarify anything unclear. As questions to jog his memory. It will take time to put it all down and his recall may be fuzzy but over time it should all come out.

Then request a polygraph to ensure you got it all.

Going back and forth "I said so" "No you didn't" is unproductive.

Get it ALL out at once.

If you'd like, I'd suggest putting a shoutout to Schoolbus who works with memory recall and see if she can suggest any tips.

Hi
No I never asked him about the timeline thing.

I will ask him tonight.
Unfortunately, we do not live in the US so they do not do polygraphs here. Its a pity huh?

Teaser:

You may want to stop by my thread: CGIR's Wife: 30 Years of Lies and Trickle Truth.

CGIR is working on a timeline for me. I know some of the information.

I had no idea.

BrokenVase

Teaser:

I left a reply for you on my thread!

BrokenVase

Thanks BV

So here is the latest; there was an affair that I discovered and wrote about 9/22 at 11;08. He had confessed then tried to back pedal which at the time sent me into a rage. Well he then told me it was nothing serious and that much of it was just groping in the car.

Well, last night he confessed the whole thing, co-worker, they used to go to a motel, etc etc etc

I think I want out. This is doing my sanity no good.
I am feeling so low today that I want to put an end to all this pain.

This man does not love me, and he is being cruel to me in the way he is handing out his information.

I really and truly can't take this any more.

My self esteem is at an all time low.
Was I ever happy? can one be truly happy if the foundation on which they have built their happiness is nothing more than an illusion? i don't think so.

I am drained, I have no fight left in me anymore.

You must know that he is 100% into this. That he wants this M back with all his heart.
If you doubt this then yes, given his history I would move on, and you have every right to do so.
Blessing