This is so selfish, tbmc. I'm watching an old friend from high school make the biggest [censored] of himself right now. He is in the middle of divorcing a wife of 25+ years. Something is holding up finalizing it. He told me two months ago that he still loves his wife. I suspect that is the way she feels, too, or why the slow motion divorce.

Now he is muckled onto a SP like he just died and went to heaven. He plastered she and he together all over facebook, and had this to say: [size:14pt]

Quote

i am crazy about her, but i don't know about definitions of relationship...but she is beautiful, wise, intelligent, can i say sexy on facebook?...and she makes me want to write, play guitar, live with passion...she makes smile.

Can you see any of yourself and your spouse in this scenerio? And how the hell does a man in his 50s say: but i don't know about definitions of relationship

What does that phrase even mean.

He's still married but really carrying on with this sp. You sound a lot like him to me. GB

I agree with others tbmc, you were putting forth a lot of effort but it doesn't seem like it was effort well spent. All that effort wont get you the love you want if it doesn't create feelings of love in him. It might make him feel nice and happy but it won't create love.

You say there was never a feeling of romantic love in your marriage. Why did you marry? What was it that convinced you that THIS was the man you wanted to share your life with?

You CAN make this better. MB can help you have a romantic marriage if you USE it the right way. We can help you develop a plan to do just that, if that is what you want.

But if you're done - there is no EASY way to do this. No way that will minimize the pain your husband feels. In fact sticking around and giving him a false sense of hope WORSENS the pain. If you're done, BE done. Move out and move on.

I am sorry but the usual quote from a wayward spouse is "I was never in love with BS" ILYBINILWY.....Please in order for poster to help you more please admit if you have had an affair...If we are not getting the whole story it will be much harder to help you,

I've been away from the boards for awhile, catching up, and am a little late to this convo...

I just want to say two things:
1. The above is not always true. May be true in this case, but not always.
2. The above explains the reaction I got when I first came to this board (hundreds of posts lost when the board crashed).

I say this because I married for 12 years a man I was never attracted to after 3 years of quasi-dating but basically being best friends. I never felt sexual attraction for my ex. I have been divorced for over a year, and separated two years. Even being single there are extremely few men I am actually attracted to. Again, not saying this is the case with tbmc but just for posterity I want to note that, yes, there are indeed some people married to folks they are not attracted to. Some they stopped being attracted to (affair, got fat, not meeting needs, etc) and some they just never were. Some of us just aren't wired normally, I guess.

DTC

From your other post you were saying that you didnt feel real attraction for anyone like that....you said something about an asexual website you go on....

Here we are talking about something different...

It is sad that you were never in love with your exH though, Daisy...

Stillhere, I know this particular case is different, but if you do a google search on people who were never attracted to spouse, this board is one of the tope hits. So I just wanted to add my case to it in case someone else came along and felt like the site was telling them the same thing that counselors told me for most of my marriage: that I was either lying (because no one marries without sexual attraction) or hopeless (because you can't rekindle a spark that wasn't there).

TBMC, if you're still there, sorry for the threadjack... it's been awhile since you posted...will you come back and let these MBers help you...?

I was talking about being in love, not just sexual attraction...It is strange that you would marry someone you were never in love with.

Oh, don't get me wrong- I certainly loved my ex! He was my absolute best friend and I thought we were two peas in a pod. I'm a little quirky and so was he.

But my version of love wasn't enough to satisfy him. To him, my love was no different than that of a family member. I didn't understand this at the time, but now I do. And I think it's best that we went our separate ways.

By the way, this is not what destroyed our marriage, but was a major hindrance all those years.

So you were in love with your husband when you married him?

I disagree that a marriage is hopeless just because there was no spark there before. Dr Harley discussed this on his radio show and he says you most certainly can fall in love if you follow his program. He explained to Vibrissa, I believe, that this is very achievable.

If this is your situation, be assured it is not hopeless. Chemistry has very little to do with it. People fall in love because of the way their needs are met.

I believe that show was right here. (I might be off; the file I have is MB_070810.mp3, and they have now started splitting them into four files and putting them in a folder with a different date.)

Hi Markos, thank you.

I now know that it is possible to build the spark. Here's my thread on the topic. However, my marriage was over for quite some time before I discovered this.

I find it really interesting that everyone thinks I am having an affair and/or have a person "in the wings." You couldn't be more wrong.

I had forgotten...my husband did tell me 3 things he needed in our relationship. 1. to wear more sexy lingere 2. keep light on while were in bed and 3. initiate sex more often. We talked about this when I was bringing up some of my needs. I tried to explain to him that his needs would be met if some of my needs were met. Our needs tied into eachother. For expample: if he would give me more attention, tell me how beautiful I am, tell me how he feels about me and my body during and before sex, then I would have more confidence or reassurance that he really did find me pretty and sexy and I would wear sexy lingere more often, initiate sex, and keep the light on.

You don't seem to understand. He even told me that there are times when he doesn't find me attractive. I've been working out and changed my eating habits big time, knowing that part of why he doesn't feel attracted to me is my weight (and I am not a heavy chick) I am average. size 12 to 14. I eel great when I work out and so I wore some sexy lingere, and yet he didn't do anything.

The guy is totally hands off, thinking that he's better off giving me space instead of romancing me. And after years of no romance, and no changes from him, he really needs to not be so hands off and go for what he wants. He told me that he still loves me. But how can he love me and not have a clue after all these years, and all these discussions?

I'm sorry. I looked over the 5 step plan via the link one of you posted. I don't have any more to give. Especially if he's not going to try.

Why did I marry him? I really thought that I loved him and that we would make a good team. We had worked through our problems (before marrying), and I thought that we would always be able to get through our problems and our love would grow. I assumed that we would become more comfortable with eachother (sexually) and become more intimate. Isn't that what marriage gives you? The security to be who you are and explore all these nice lovey dovey things?

I looked through my Pre Canna workbook today. There were notes in it, concerns I had about sex. I don't remember what we talked about exactly, but the notes show that I was convinced we would be able to work through it.

Thank you all for your feed back. I know what I have to do. It's going to hurt. Both of us. But it's there best thing for the long run. I don't know how it'll work out, and I am really scared. But it's not a good reason to stay in the marriage. I feel bad for him but that's not a good reason to stay in the marriage either. I'm afarid of how the family will think of me but that's not a reason to stay in the marriage. I don't feel secure and loved.

Yes, it was stupid to think that I could make this easier for him. I don't know what I was thinking.

Thanks again.

"I am average. size 12 to 14."

How tall are you?

Sure you do. You don't know his name yet. You simply know he's not your husband. You probably have some sort of mental image of who he is, what he does, or what he will or will not do for or with you.

In your mind, he's none of the things that irritate you about your husband, and everything your husband isn't that you wish he was.

So while there's no person, yet. You are having your own fantasy affair, and it's with someone who may not even exist.

Since you are not in love with your husband, you have this idea there is someone else who is better suited to you.

Therefore, your mindset is as wayward as someone who is actively involved in an affair.
So how did you do? Did you live up to his stated desires? She he leave you if you didn't measure up? Or should he show grace and love and continue to work with you?
So you are a renter, not a buyer. What's wrong with saying that's a great set of needs, I'll get right to it. I have this set of needs and I'd like you to meet them as well?

Great! That's REAL intimacy. Because he's sharing something that is dangerous to share and he felt safe enough to share it with you.

Did you thank him? Were you grateful that he loved you enough to deliver a difficult message? It takes incredible love and courage to deliver a difficult message.

Do you realized he showed you great love when he was honest with you? Did you choose to see the loving nature of his honesty, or did you choose to be offended?

Because you send mixed signals. You want him to be close, honest, loving, and when he does, you likely melt down.

He doesn't live in your head. If everything he's tried ends up in some painful discussion where you are crying and wanting to leave, then where is the upside for him to try anything?

You are saying you want to leave.

What have you done to make it safe for him to love you? What have to done to make him feel safe to share with you? What have you done to make him feel secure enough to try, knowing that you won't walk out if he doesn't get it right, but you'll coach him to doing what it is you want?


What makes you think he has any more to give. You are sitting here telling us you have nothing more to give and it's all up to him.

What if he's in the same place. He's tried and tried again, but you simply don't acknowledge that he's tried, so he too has nothing left to give.

Then what?

You divorce, you find someone else and you exhaust everything he has to give and you repeat the cycle.
As long as it's safe for him to be intimate. As long as it's not safe for him to say he doesn't find your weigh gain, or whatever attractive, then you are part of the barrier to intimacy.

Intimacy isn't only about sharing the easy to share feelings. In fact, I'd say that's not intimacy at all. Intimacy is about a safe place to share the hard to deliver messages and knowing your spouse will recognize that because they love you they are sharing.

If you choose to be offended when he shared that intimate thought with you about attractiveness, then the barrier to intimacy is not him, it was you.

I'm not saying he's not a barrier to intimacy, I'm saying you are here, and I'm telling you how you are being your own worst enemy when it comes to getting what you want.
No, that's dating. Marriage adds to that the secure environment to dig into the not so pretty lovey dovey things. So marriage is about the rest of who you are, and those things for anyone, you and your husband are not so lovey dovey.

Marriage is about being there for one another when it's not so lovey dovey.
I doubt he feels that way either. And if you give up, you'll make the same mistakes with another man because you have unrealistic expectations and are not a wife who is safe to share intimate things from what I've read.

I'm not convinced you are thinking. I'm convinced you are feeling. But thinking, I'm not so sure.

5'8" and he's 6'6"

I'm sorry that all of you have gone through some really tough times. I felt it in a lot of the replies/advice.

Was hoping for simpler advice, silly me. I understand it's difficult, however, to give simple advice when you don't know me.

I made the difficult decision (hard for some of you to believe) to tell my husband last Thursday that I wanted to split up. It was difficult because, even though I wasn't in love with him, I loved him and wasn't so sure that splitting up was a good idea. All I knew was that I needed to take action because no action was happening in the marriage.

So, I told him I wanted to split up. He got on the phone (I assumed to talk with his parents) and I went to the marina to call my mom. Got on the phone with mom, and found out that dad was on the other line having a very serious conversation (found out later he was talking to my husband).

My husband called me when he was finished talking with my dad. He told me a little of what they talked about. My husband knows my parents have a challenging marriage and asked for advice. Dad mentioned taking action. Sometimes scrutinizing a problem so much isn't good. Take action, make a decision - you can always change your mind or fix it. My husband thought that was interesting as I have been talking a lot about needing action from him.

I still felt bad, sad, and had no idea what was going to happen. Since it was late, we didn't talk much when I got home and we went to bed (separate rooms). I woke up the next morning, still thinking we were going to split up. Made his sandwich and packed his lunch. He emailed me our marriage counselor's number and asked me to call her and make an appointment. I called her and left a msg. Then my husband called me and said he still wanted to go on the date we'd planned earlier in the week. Dinner and a movie. Ok, I was game. He texted me the restaurant to meet at, and when I arrived he had already ordered some food (he's never done that before). He said he is going to take more action and initiative in the relationship. We talked a little about our day, the food, small talk. I warmed up a little bit. I was hoping that you all would understand, I was hurt during these past couple of years. I felt hurt and unloved, undesired, unattractive. I didn't want (don't want) to be hurt again. That's why I distanced myself.

Back to the date night, my husband picked out the movie and decided to take one car. He was making all kinds of decisions Friday night. It was awesome! Food he ordered had meat and was greasy but who cares! He ordered it. Throughout the evening, he hugged me, held my hand, gave me more physical contact than usual. He also said that he wanted to keep our plans to go sailing for the weekend. Ok, great. We went sailing and talked a lot, and more importantly, he took action and initiative and gave me the physical contact I needed.

He had his biggest ah-ha moment during those few days. I have always been grateful for having my husband in my life. I still am - ESPECIALLY now because he is maturing. He even told me that he is growing up, and he finally heard me, really, really heard my feelings, and starting to understand how I work.

I mentioned to him how folks were telling me that I was self absorbed and self centered for talking about my needs and feelings all the time. And here's another reason why I fell in love with him in the first place - he said I wasn't being self centered because the things I was asking for weren't things I wanted but things I needed. He realized that I couldn't function in our marriage anymore because my needs weren't being met. I wasn't being selfish, I was being me, AND how terrible is it that I need more physical and verbal displays of affection and love? He certainly enjoys the love I show him, and he said he can make this change for me. He recognized that even though our families loved us (growing up), we grew up with 2 very different ways of showing love. I grew up with a LOT of physical and verbal affection and love, a lot of reassurance and support. My husband and his sister didn't. They still knew that their parents loved them. They just showed it in other ways.

We saw the marriage counselor Monday night. Told her about the past few months and how we dealt with the past week. My husband wanted to see her to make sure he interpreted my feelings correctly, and to tell me his biggest need: that I'll be there for him no matter what. He'd missed that feeling during the past 2 months as I distanced myself. And he understands why I felt the way I did and why I felt I needed to make the decision to split up. And he is beginning to understand how his needs are met when my needs are met. I feel so much better, I am feeling his love for me and I am able to reciprocate. We're still working on our physical, emotional and sexual intimacy issues, and now I have a lot more confidence that we will get better at loving eachother and become closer and connected to eachother on a deeper level.

Good luck to you all.

That is so incredibly awesome. You just made my day.

I wasn't one of those who thought you were having an affair. I recognized how you felt as I felt that way for years. I just couldn't/wouldn't comment because I did have an affair.

I think what you did is strong and brave and not the least bit selfish. By doing it you may have saved your marriage. Mine may be saved as well (the jury is still out on that) but at what cost? I wish I could have been as brave and self knowledgeable as you...and had such boundaries.

You deserve admiration and respect and a great life.

I think it's remarkable how your marriage has turned around in such a short time. Maybe he just needed the shakeup of the words "let's split". I wish you guys continued success and moving forward to making it work.