I have already addressed this TWICE and you ignored my answer. Here is one post where I touched on your scenario where the BH made a "thoughtful request" :

Sucks to be her.

Remember, I've tried Dr H's plan to recover from an affair, and failed. I worked with Steve H, did my assignments faithfully, filled out my surveys, tried to engage her, tried to even get her to speak with Steve H, eliminated what I thought were the LB's since I got no feedback from her, tried to meet what I thought were her EN's since I got no feedback from her.

I exposed the affair, including the OM's wife, my XWW's parents, family, friend, her employer where she met the OM, the OM's employer, and beyond.

So one cannot say that I didn't give the program a good faith effort.

The sheer effort and the typical results are why I would never try to win a WW back again. I've tried the program, coached by Steve H and I'd never try to win a WW back again.

So I stand by my statement, if I should ever discover my wife is unfaithful, she has exactly a nanosecond to prove that she loves me. If she doesn't love me, then it's her loss.

I have nothing to lose other than someone who doesn't love me. What loss is that?

She would be the one to lose, she loses a husband who loved her.

So if what you say is true, that she doesn't love me, then what am I really losing if I close the door on her? The answer is I'm not losing much.

Let me state it AGAIN so you see it clearly:


That is the answer. Just because a spouse makes a respectful request does not mean the other spouse should do it if it is a sacrifice. If she agrees to something that repulses her, she will soon stop doing it.

Does that answer your question?

This is the burden the WW faces. The BH is keying in on this fact. If she's always refused a particular act to her BH, but freely gave it to the OM, her BH is going to conclude she never and still doesn't love him, but loved the OM enough to try this very act.

Mel wrote:

Quote

Bingo!! That is a correct conclusion. She doesn't love her H.

I am happy you have now reached this conclusion. It was the whole topic and motivation of this thread to make you and others understand that this is how the BH will perceive her choice. And that meeting him like suggested in Schoolbus's letter would add wounds to his injury. But I was not as provocative as you are, I just said he would perceive her choice in this way. Not that she did not love him. Yet you and others spent half this thread labaling me with DJs and claiming I wanted to force the WW to perform degrading sexual acts because i said this very thing that you now said here.

Does this mean that you will call back the DJs you have labeled me with?, or will you persist in your untrue statement that my agenda is to force the WW to perform degrading sexual acts?

I don't think that what you and I have said will contribute much to this thread, faithy.

Frank's argument is that there is a sex difference, with men understanding each other's feelings of "evisceration", and women posters standing up for other women doing "what feels right".

Threads like these only cause the sexual division around affairs that they seek to illuminate. They begin by a man saying "men have it worse than women when it comes to betrayal; BWs don't know how lucky they are; WWs are the very devil", and not your story or mine or anyone else's will change that view.

The result, for me, is disappointment that anti-affair campaigners - BSs, FWSs and neither (like Frank) - line up to compare hurts, instead of supporting ALL the hurting people on here.

The FWW whose situation started this debate has an H who wants her to participate in 3-ways. She will not do that. Men here are arguing that her refusal is a detrimental to her H's personal and marital recovery and is causing him to not love her.

Walk away, faithy! This thread is a pointless, divisive indulgence.

I did answer that. I said feelings are largely impervious to facts.

I said that she can deliver that message just as you've said, and it may not make a bit of difference to her BH due to her self-destroyed credibility.

She has to PROVE, not just say that she's doing what she's doing to build romantic love.

The WW has seriously damaged her BH. So she likely has to go first and work longer and harder to convince him that she really does love him (or want to love him) before he'll trust her enough to engage in the program.

That's what I see in the idea of just compensation. The WW is willing to go it alone, doing the program to fill his love bank enough that he'll trust her that the program will make his/their marriage better.

The dilemma she faces is how does she do that while at the same time refusing to honor a respectful request made by her husband who has the knowledge she consented to with the OM?

You can say she's trying to build love. But how does she prove it with her self-destroyed credibility?

Yes, she is the big loser in your situation. You didn't lose much in your situation and it sounds like divorce was the measure of success in your situation. You can honestly say you tried everything to recover your marriage. There is only so much one can do when one partner will not participate. But you can't save a marriage alone ultimately.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that others have not successfully recovered their marriages. We have scads of BH's who are in fully recovered marriages today. And their wives were not in love in them at one time. They are today.

Frank, what is wrong with the BH's understanding the truth of the state of the marriage? This is not a secret. After an affair, Marriage Builders solution is to "restore the love in the marriage. " Something can't be restored unless it is lost, right?

However, to your point, the WW's refusal to do affair sex acts in her marriage is not a signal that she doesn't love him if it is accompanied with an OFFER to engage in something better than PIG PEN SEX. It indicates her willingness to rebuild the love in the marriage.

What would erode the love further is if she, in a misguided attempt to make sacrifices, agreed to engage in sex acts she finds disgusting.

Yes, this is true of almost all affairs. WS's do things with their OP that they don't do in their marriages. The BS is right to conclude that the love is lost in the marriage.

The solution is work to restore the love in the marriage. NOT by engaging in sex acts that she finds disgusting, but finding sexual techniques that make them both happy.

That's why in my case, a WW would have to prove in that short period of time that she really loves me and would do what it takes to first never hurt me like that again, and second, build a stronger marriage.

The burden of proof falls on the WS.

Now I don't think threesomes fall into that category, and I'm not talking about anything that would bring another person into the marriage.

The WW does have to offer something better. However, understand that the BH is the one who judges what he believes best meets his needs. That's not being selfish.

Let's take sex out of this, since it's such an emotionally charged topic. Let's say the BH is Jewish and doesn't eat bacon. Let's say he's always wanted Lamb, but has refused his requests for Lamb.

He finds out she made lamb numerous times for her lover. So he asks for lamb. She refuses saying lamb is repulsive.

She offers bacon, because she really thinks bacon is the bees knees.

She doesn't get to decide what is better than what he's requested. If his favorite dish is lamb, then anything less will not hit the mark.

Of course each of them has a vote to stay or go. If he really wants lamb, and she won't make it for him after she freely made it for the OM, he can always pull the plug.

Likewise, if he's made respectful requests for lamb, and she freely gave it to the OM without emotional or physical trauma, then she COULD choose to offer lamb to her BH as well.

Frank, you are not my husband so please stop trying to silence any opposition by labeling it a "DJ." I am not trying to fill your lovebank!

And yes, I do understand your agenda, even though you continually deny it. You believe it is WRONG of the WW to refuse to perform sex acts in the marriage that she performed in the affair even though she now finds them disgusting. No one is confused about your point, Frank, so please stop acting like they are.


It is not we silly female posters who believe it is ok for the WW to refuse to do sex acts she finds disgusting, it is the opinion of Dr Harley.


So, yes, the WW is right in refusing acts she finds disgusting. What should happen is finding acts that both find enjoyable.

Let's take sex out of this, since it's such an emotionally charged topic. Let's say the BH is Jewish and doesn't eat bacon. Let's say he's always wanted Lamb, but has refused his requests for Lamb.

He finds out she made lamb numerous times for her lover. So he asks for lamb. She refuses saying lamb is repulsive.

She offers bacon, because she really thinks bacon is the bees knees.

She doesn't get to decide what is better than what he's requested. If his favorite dish is lamb, then anything less will not hit the mark

There is a third choice. She was willing to make BACON for him occasionally before the affair....so now she could offer BACON every day and cook it in the style of LAMB.

Relating it back to sex, he maybe preferred the "Lamb style sex" that she willingly and eagerly engaged in with the OM for years".

But she does not want to do this with the husband, first because it is now disgusting to her, and secondly because she reserves that kind of sex for HER OTHER LOVER because it is THIER SPECIAL THING.

So, as a compromise, could she not offer BACON every day as often as her husband wants it, willingly....at least she could up the frequency and excitement of thier sexual life....

It is not always black or white, Lamb or Bacon, vanilla sex or disgusting wild sex....it could be a compromise to honor the husband's masculinity and his feelings and to have them both heal from her selfish affair.

"EE, how can she prove something that doesn't exist? She is not in love with her husband! And how can she love a man who makes selfish demands and angry outbursts? Those are lovebusters that have destroyed her feelings for her H.

The solution is for both to STOP the lovebusters, meet each others emotional needs to create romantic love. "

100% true as usual melodylane.

But what has to be said that will get the BH to accept that his WW will not do for him what she did for the OM?

It's interesting that now the insisted response is that the WS is, in fact, NOT in love with the BH. Fair enough. But, we see statements of that love urged all the time, in the context of the NC letter, in the context of what to say to the BS when they are angrily confronting the WS. I know that I have seen WS counselled to say: "What I had with the OP was not love. I love you." Or something to that effect. Clearly, though, that cannot be the case in the immediate, or even not so immediate aftermath of the affair. Right? Are we not, then counselling the WS to lie?

"I understand the issue is about her being willing to do things with the OM she wouldn't do with the BH, but it seems to me the best solution would be for her to do things with the BH that she wouldn't do with the scumbucket. "

Melody, I have never heard of a WW ever refuse to do for the OM anything that she had did or have not donefor her BH.

Your proposed solution will not fit any cases that I have read about.

No, we are counseling the WW to put her money where her mouth is. If she wants to save the marriage, then there must be some sort of love there, hopefully romantic love.

After all, why would a WW want to save her marriage if she didn't love her husband? Now there are reasons such as she's grown accustomed to the lifestyle his career offers, or he's really good in bed.

But the question still comes down to, does she love him romantically. After all, that's what marriage is largely about in this corner of the world. (In other places, not so much, folks get married and stay married WITHOUT romance. Not saying it's better or worse, just citing the idea that romance is a largely Western construct, and others have made it work without such a heavy reliance on romance.)

She can say that what she did was NOT a loving act and she wants an opportunity to build or rebuild romantic love.

Here is what I would have died to hear from my XWW.

E_E,

What I did to you and our family was hurtful and wrong. I sinned against both God and our family. I ask that you forgive me and offer me the opportunity to rebuild our love one for another and to offer you the wife and marriage you've always wanted.

Signed,

The former Mrs E_E


I think something like that would work because it shows she knows what she did was not loving and wrong, and that she valued me and the family enough to be honest about how hurtful her actions were and how valuable our marriage was to her, and how she was throwing it all away with her choice to have an affair.

Saying that, then living out those words would go a long way to convince a BH that she is committed to a program of MB, and he would be far more open to entering the program with her and better meeting her needs and eliminating his love busters.

But the WW still has to go first, with that admission, the humility and then the courage to actually live out what was said by hanging in there, proving she meant what she said, even when he was too wounded to respond in kind.

So I'm saying the WW has to demonstrate that romantic love is a real and reachable possibility. Her window to do so may be exceedingly small. But if she wants to restore her marriage, it's a step she must take.

You surely know that "compromise" does not create romantic love, it erodes it. A better solution is win/win.

I agree they should both heal from her selfish affair, but it needs to be done in a way that satisfies BOTH, not just one.

One of the biggest mistakes I see FWW's make around here is they adopt practices of SACRIFICE in order to atone for their crime. Sure, they should make just compensation for their crime, but not in ways that harm the marriage. And sacrifice will definitely harm the marriage.

Nevermind not worth the argument

Sucks to be you. MB does not save every marriage. Don't be bitter about MB failing you. You did all you could do. Be proud in that.

Can you give me the link to the material on this? I thought I had read all of Dr Harley's material but I may have missed this.