Mel is right....

Hi Broken. I am sorry you are here. I have been mulling over what i want to say to you all day. I know that the FR dealt you a serious blow and having read intimate conversations between the two of them has made the vividness of you triggers that much worse, but I do wonder why you have made no progress since January.

You don't trust your wife. Good! I don't trust my DH anymore either, if by trust you mean that blind, believe anything you say, kind of trust. But I do trust that my relationship with my DH is better than it ever was, and the EPs that we have put in place allow us to make course corrections easily when either one of us is getting off track.

When I found out about my husband's A, I made a decision that I would do whatever it took to save my M with the caveat that if he EVER did it again He was out the door. Did that mean that he told me everything that very first day or didn't try to trickle truth me for a while? NO! But in the midst of all that I could see that he was trying. He got the books. He read them on his long commute. He did the questionaires. He told me he loved me and was sorry, over and over and over again. From your W's posts I get the feeling that she is doing that also but you have your blinders on to all the good stuff so the bad stuff can't hurt you. It's no way to live.

Here I am almost two years after D day and I still have triggers, but I also have many more really good memories from this recovery that I intentionally store up to remember when the triggers hit. That's what taking every thought captive really means.

I just get the feeling that you are stuck and can't make a decision to stay or go. The silent treatment and keeping her at a distance while you still live together is not going to heal your marriage. Talking and crying and bonding TOGETHER is what will heal your marriage.

So what can your W do to make you want to try? Do you see your part in the weakness in your marriage? Have you been trying to control the triggers and redirecting your thoughts when they do occur?

I too had the situation where my H communicated with the OW mostly at work and there is no way to control that. It sucks! But DNM is right: make yourself part of her day so the memories of romance at the office include you, not the OM! If I could deal with the images of the PA occurring in my H's office (WHICH HE STILL INHABITS), you can deal with conversations she had from there. Trust me, it does get easier with time.

I hope you understand that this post is meant to encourage you, not beat you down. Recovery is work.

Ok, so if you have read around here, and have read the books, then let's do some short review;


The possibility for this one person, was due to 1) being of the opposite sex, 2) having been a previous love, and thus already having a "love bank" due to that previous relationship, 3) too much trust, too few boundaries, and a lack of O&H allowing LB$ deposits to be made, 4) a lack of O&H, possibly from both sides, about LB$ balances, leading to emotional vulnerability.

In SAA, you would be relating to the "Sue and Jon" story, and the whole "soul mate" scenario. It was a fantasy and a fog which fell apart when applied to the real word. A bubble, that when impeded on by actual life, burst into a flurry of disappointment.

Those "heartfelt" messages you read were a lie, they were supported by the fact that neither had any responsibility to protect or support the other in any way other than to cultivate their relationship. When that bubble burst, what she was left with to face was you; you and the pain and destruction that she has caused to the person she swore to love, protect, and be faithful to. The same person, that despite anything prior to her A, had at least loved her, and been faithful to her.

"It is a painful thing to look at your trouble, and know that you yourself and no one else has made it."

I got lies from my FWW. I got trickle truth. I got 5 or 6 months of false recovery. I know that it sucks.

She has apologized, she has cried, she has showed me her remorse, and she is putting everything she has into trying to "win me back." And almost every word, almost every action, has bounced right off of me. I don't trust her. She broke her vows, and she lied. And she did it all selfishly.

So, I know what it's like to be on the fence. I'm on the fence every day. So why am I here? Simple; I love her. I am here because I want to be, and for now, that is reason enough.

I'm not giving her a chance at anything. I'm giving me a chance. I'm giving myself the chance to say that I gave her everything, literally every last bit I have. If one day, I choose to walk away, if one day she decides it wasn't enough?

Fine. I know I could walk away TODAY and be fine with my life, but I refuse to live with the regret of not trying.

I suggest you read some of the wayward threads around here. My mind changed about a lot of this when I read the thread of one in particular, because in her story I heard the words of my FWW - and I learned to appreciate the fact that I had a W that was willing to put it all on the line to provide just compensation for her offense to me, our children, and our marriage.

Not every BS has had that, and I am thankful that I do, because I wouldn't have the strength to fight it out with one of those mean, spiteful, foggy WS's.

Ditto.... my now xh told me of his afair 1 month and 5 days after our only DD was born. Let me just tell you in some ways i am glad i didn't know before then..... it's alot already with her emotions and hormones after having a child.

Broken; have you fully met your need for O&H concerning the A?

Are there still questions floating around? Even if the answers are going to be painful, get them out, over, and done with. I can almost guarantee that the truth is far less devastating than the way your own mind answers those questions.

Banishing those questions by meeting them with honesty is one of the things that will help you move forward. And her willingness to answer your questions fully and honestly can help a little.

While I agree that trying to time it well for the OMW is a thoughtful thing to do for her, realize that the process of exposure is going to be a HUGE slip - there will be a sense of relief and vindication, but the process itself can be draining. Because of that, don't put it off too long, for your own sake.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and advice. DNM, I have read the MM tread and a few books that deal with deflecting memories. I am much better at it now and can move on to something else but sometimes it is just too overwhelming and I become that train down the mountain. HHH, I have asked all the questions. Just don�t believe she has been totally O&H with me from all the information that I recovered, and I�m tired of having to prove to her before she will admit it.

Broken

I am a FWW, and I have been posting and supporting your wife in her recovery, I have had to change my name though since I have moved to Plan B. I'll give you a clue its itch..

I wanted to try and explain some perspectiveon why your W may find it difficult to be O&H about the A. I found it difficult to be open & honest about the details of my A. The main reason was because I was a coward, but also if my H is not sure he wants to be with me now, then if I tell him more details about the A, then that will give him more reason to leave. Perhaps this could be the main reason?

However, I know it is more important to be completely O&H above anything. Please be assured of that. HOwever, when you fear that you may lose something you completely and utterly love, you become paralysed by fear.

Best of luck to you, in my heart, I believe that if you guys can work through this, you will go onto have a better M than you ever imagined.

Your W is utterly remorseful, I can tell, but only you can decide if you can both put the effort in to rebuild.

Best of luck to you.

Harmony

Well, it is up to you to decide when you have heard what you need to hear, and if it is truthful, or acceptable for you to move forward from that point. But, it is important to make sure that those questions don't linger - and remember, when you have this conversation, ask your question and just listen actively. Do everything you can to make the conversation pleasant and safe (of course it isn't totally pleasant, it's going to hurt) so that she doesn't get defensive.

There may be some things she withholds because she has the misguided idea that she is protecting you, or that if you knew these parts that you would leave. In MB terms, it is a DJ on her part. You are hurt, and as your name implies, broken. Most BSs are. However, despite all that, you are still there, you came here, and in your despair you are trying. That speaks volumes about your commitment and conviction.

So, let's do a little something, shall we? This experience has probably shaken you to the core? Your M wasn't perfect before, but in your mind, that didn't matter because you had a W that you believed loved you, and despite everything was faithful? Maybe you put some of that on yourself?

The A just confirmed your own short comings?

None of that may be true in your case, but if it is;

Realize that even if you weren't the best H previously, that this was not due to a lack of ability or willingness, but due to a lack of knowledge, and a lack of communication to where you were failing - due to a lack of knowledge in your FWW to communicate or recognize those failings.

Realize that you are an attractive person. Not only are you attractive, but you are a giving person who is willing to dedicate yourself to another person completely. Look in the mirror, admire yourself a bit. (I annoy my FWW with this one a tad, but DANG, I am a looker)

Think about the life that you have created; your abilities and potential abilities. You are driven and intelligent. You can excel at whatever it is you choose to apply yourself to.


This talented, driven, caring, handsome man who stands before you in the mirror can be the best husband possible to whomever he chooses.

This man was NOT second choice. This man was not chosen because they are the only choice available. This man was chosen because he is THE ONE.

That is the biggest problem for me. I was lied to before discovery while the A was going on. I was lied too when I first confronted my WW about many text messages to OM. Then a week later I discovered that it was an A and lied to again. Then FR for 5 months, more lies. I�m not willing to work on any type of recovery until I am positive that I have the whole truth. Maybe that is why I am still in a funk and on the fence. Too many lies to know when the actual truth has been told. I'm not willing to rebuild this marriage based on lies.

My other problem is SF. I don�t enjoy it because all I see are WW and OM. Now she buys new lingerie from the same store that she bought some for OM and expects me to want to be with her. Even the new wedding ring looks a lot like his. I just don�t know.

And this is an important point you make, because the BS needs all these facts in order to make an informed decision about whether or not he wants to continue the marriage. This is why it is so critical for him to have all the facts. He has a right to leave the marriage and it would be cruel to withhold any facts that prevented him making an informed decision.

So any wayward that withholds facts for this reason is simply being cruel and treating her spouse like a pet for her own selfish purposes.

True remorse is demonstrated by giving one's victims all the facts he needs in leiu of withholding them for selfish purposes.

Broken, do you feel you have all the facts now? Is she being honest NOW? Has she affair proofed your marriage in a way that you KNOW she is not in contact.

See, getting the entire truth is going to be a critical first step in your recovery. If you don't feel you have all the truth, something has to be done about it. And my suggestion would be to have a polygraph test. This has been a Godsend for many marriages here. What you would do is make up a list of all your questions beforehand and give her one last chance to come clean BEFORE the polygraph. Then, if she flunks the polygraph you will know this is hopeless. And it is hopeless if she is dishonest. Recovery will never come if it is based on lies.

You have nothing to lose this way.


I would ask her to get rid of that lingerie. Brainstorm about ways to manage your sex life in a way that does not trigger you so much. You will not be able to get all the pictures out of your head for a while, but there are little things you can do to remove some triggers.

I got a lot of the same crap, bud. Notice that I have 2 D-day dates. Could probably be 3.

The first was when I confronted her with evidence of SOMETHING. I had a record of texts and calls.

The second, was when I was checking her texts after admission 1 "we were just friends" and figured there had to be more.

Admission 2: "we just kissed."

I applied constant, but gentle, pressure for 5 months before I got the truth around July.

The willingness to be O&H about ANYTHING you might ask is on her, and it is on you to provide that opportunity.

None of this crap; I don't know, I don't remember, it's not relevant.

If you want those images to subside, you need to satisfy your curiosity and imagination with truth - because the truth is going to be sad and pathetic compared to what you provide.

I kind of had an epiphany one day sending movie quote texts. A line from The Notebook of all movies.

"Well that's what we do, we fight... You tell me when I am being an arrogant son of a [censored] and I tell you when you are a pain in the [censored]. Which you are, 99% of the time. I'm not afraid to hurt your feelings. You have like a 2 second rebound rate, then you're back doing the next pain-in-the-[censored] thing."

And I suppose, from the same conversation;

"So it's not gonna be easy. It's gonna be really hard. We're gonna have to work at this every day, but I want to do that because I want you. I want all of you, for ever, you and me, every day. Will you do something for me, please? Just picture your life for me? 30 years from now, 40 years from now? What's it look like? If it's with him, go. Go! I lost you once, I think I can do it again. If I thought that's what you really wanted. But don't you take the easy way out."

The truth isn't always going to be a happy-go-lucky experience. How many times has it been said that "truth hurts?" We can do everything to try to avoid that, but we must not sacrifice O&H to do so. Therefore, we must carefully approach how we provide that O&H.

I told my FWW that I would walk through hell for her. Well, she gave me the chance. You have that chance. It's going to be hard, it's going to be painful - but that pain will heal.


Ask yourself what your pain is telling you?

Is it that you don't love her? Or is it that you love her so much that what she has done has destroyed everything you ever believed in? Is it because you don't feel like she loves you the same way?

I didn't suddenly stop loving FWW - and I know, I KNOW how much those images hurt. However, I can tell you from my experience, that if you work through this, what you two will share will transcend anything shared in the A, and everything previously in your M.

The pain and the images are still going to be there. And that lack of trust.

What helped me is an idea from this program; spouses shouldn't be trusted. It's easier to end up in an affair than to not.

Believing it can't or won't happen is an invitation for disaster.

A lot learned through here will challenge everything you have believed or have been taught to believe. Yet, when you examine it, when you examine the stories here, you will see that it is right.

Quoted For Truth. Given the same set of circumstances, ANY human being would have had the affair. We are hard-wired for it. Every single one of us. Including you.

Then how do people avoid having affairs?

1. Implement Extraordinary Precautions to prevent them. Things like "don't communicate in private with any member of the opposite sex" and "do not be friendly with members of the opposite sex except in the presence of my spouse."

2. Ensure our own needs are met. This is where Radical Honesty comes into play. How can our spouse know how to meet our needs if we aren't honest about them?

3. Avoid behaviors that make our spouse unhappy. "Love Busters" -- particularly the affair-inducing double-whammy of Independent Behavior and Dishonesty -- can themselves cause an affair, or cause a spouse to believe they are justified having one. Not that it's the betrayed spouse's fault -- it's not! -- but we betrayed spouses must acknowledge that our behavior played a part in setting up the conditions in which an affair could occur, and encourage Radical Honesty in our wayward spouses so that we can know when we're engaging in those behaviors that make them miserable.

I'm going to reiterate my previous post, though. What you need right now is A Plan. If the plan is divorce, get the ball rolling; your wife opened the door to a guilt-free divorce because of the affair, and it's your right to walk through it if you wish. Dr. Harley even says that if a spouse wants a divorce as a result of adultery, they "have my blessing". It's what he would do if Joyce cheated on him. You would have hope that the divorce would reduce your suffering.

However, if your plan is recovery, then figure out what you need to recover and start working that way. You will then have hope for recovering your marriage, and be moving forward.

What you're doing right now is waffling in indecision and making both of you miserable. A plan -- whatever you decide that plan is -- will give you the confidence you need to move forward with your life rather than stagnating in your misery.

I'd once again suggest a counseling session with one of the MarriageBuilders staff. You'll come out of it with an astounding amount of clarity as to what you should do.

Thank you everyone for your honesty and support. I have been reading and following a lot of posts here that have been very helpful. Through all of this I have only had a few people to talk to and none of them has gone through anything like this. I have always been sort of private so this is new too me. I think HHH and me are twins. Just wish it where a different kind. H2010 stay strong, I have been following you for a while and I wish you the best.

Don't you know it's wrong to make another man blush?

:p

Anyway, I can tell you that there is more kinship there than you might be seeing.

I believe we both have otherwise wonderful FWWs who are going to run themselves into the ground to compensate their transgressions.

Even if each of us, at this time, is unable or unwilling to accept it.

Dig into some of the "foggy" WS threads, and think about your situation. Or even think about the "Jon and Sue" story from SAA.

The tremendous strength, and the depth of anger and pain that people have recovered from is something I can hardly fathom.

Yet, I didn't imagine myself staying, either. Did you?

Faced with this new reality, we will go through hell and face new realities.

We must reshape the way we think and act - to prevent the mistakes of the past, and make the future as bright as we possibly can.

We have faced the darkness, and we will survive. Not just survive, we will thrive, and grow, and succeed.

Fingers crossed for you, brother.

No matter the result, keep in mind this is a place where you are safe to speak your mind, receive guidance, and validate that you are in no way, shape, or form crazy.

Gawd, I felt so insane some times...

Broken09, it just isn't fair what your wife has done. She's put you in a lousy spot.

Question is, what should you do about it?

By her affair, and by holding out on the truth for so long afterwards, she's dumped you at the bottom of a steep ravine -- not a normal ravine, but a strange one with mountains on every side, no other ways out. There's no magic rescue helicopter to lift you back out to the way it was before she hurt you and lied to you.

You could try to stick with her. Ultimately, if you want to have a marriage that'll give you what you want & need, you're going to have to get to a place where you feel comfortable with her current honesty about the past as well as the present. But then you'll also have to make a choice to swallow what she put you through -- including her past dishonesty -- and forgive it. Even though she doesn't deserve it (forgiveness being, by definition, an underserved gift).

Or you could leave her & try to start fresh with someone else. As I'm sure you've already concluded, that's no easy trek, either. Since you've been back in her bed since the affair, probably means the adultery will get discounted by the court. Probably, you'll get hosed in a divorce settlement, because you know how courts stick it to dads. But maybe you need a clean slate for yourself when it comes to a marriage relationship? If that's your choice, to walk away, fair enough. It's your right, although not a fun one to exercise.

So yeah, it's a rotten situation she's put you in. No matter which path you choose, you'll have to hump over a steep mountain to get out of where you are. No, it ain't fair. You didn't deserve to be put there. But there you are. And you're faced with the knowledge that one of the paths out is the very path you started crawling up during what turned out to be the FR. And as you went up that path, you got knocked off your feet and ended up back in the bottom of the damned ravine. So I can sure understand you being reluctant to go that route again. As far as you're concerned, that climb you made part-way was wasted time.

But looking ahead...

If the direction you choose is to split, then years from now, you'll wanna be able to say you gave it your best. For yourself & for your daughters.

If the direction you choose is to stay with wpg, then you've also gotta be able to say you're giving it your best now; because from what I've seen in my 15 months here on these boards, this "recovery" business only works when both spouses give their best, all-in. That includes you. See, if my wife hadn't chosen to forgive me, there was nothing I ever could've done, no truth I ever could've told, that could erase what I put her through. I couldn't undo my past deception. I couldn't have wished it away, no matter how hard I tried. The affair happened. I was 100% guilty. It wasn't fair to her at all. I can't ever undo it. If even today you gave me a magic lamp with a genie & one, single wish, and told me that with that wish I could cure diseases, or prevent wars, or guarantee my kids prosperity, success, health, smarts, good looks, sound character and happiness all in one, or bring back dear relatives from the dead, I would let the diseases continue to ravage, I'd let the wars go on, I'd let my kids stumble their way through the world like everyone else, I'd let the dead stay dead, and instead my one wish would be to never have had my affair. But that's a fairyland, and I can't go there. Neither can my wife. Neither can you & wpg. Nothing she tells you will ever be able to undo what she's done.

But you can fall in love with her again, and she with you. If you're both all-in.

If there's stuff you feel she still needs to tell you, then write it down for her, and ask for her answers. (Or ask her in conversation where you've both agreed to have the conversation in advance. However you feel comfortable.) Get through the list. Reserve the right to circle back & ask follow-up questions. Stay calm on the outside, even if something she tells you takes your breath away like a kick in the stomach. Take a break if you need to, for however long you need to, for 10 minutes, or for a week.

If there's stuff she writes down or tells you, but you just don't believe it, that's fair; so then ask her to take a polygraph on those questions. (See Mel's post.) If she wants to save the marriage, she'll take it.

But once it's all out there, all the facts you've asked for, and if you decide to stay, then you're gonna have to give her a chance to meet your needs. That'll mean sharing your needs with her, and it'll mean giving her not your complete trust, but at least some minimal benefit of the doubt (provided you feel certain that the affair is over). So for instance, that wedding ring she bought you -- you could look at it from her standpoint & say to yourself "Well, maybe she thought that if she bought me one like my old one -- the one I threw in the lake -- it would be a bad trigger for me, and so maybe she got me a different kind because she thought I wouldn't like one like the old one." When practically any ring is possibly a trigger just because it's round & metal, then she's sort of damned if she does & damned if she doesn't. Of course, it's totally your right to allow her to feel damned-if-she-does-&-damned-if-she-doesn't. That's your choice. But it is a choice that you'll be making, to allow her to feel that way. It's a step up out of that ravine, in a certain direction. Is it the direction you really want to go in? (That's a question, not a judgement on my part, by the way. I've certainly got no standing to judge you, especially given my own past.)

Anyway, I think you've gotta pick a direction and start walking again. Because if you stay at the bottom of a 4-sided ravine, eventually, when a really rainy day comes, it'll fill up, and you'll either drown, or have to tread water like hell for long time just to stay at the bottom of the ravine, and that'll be more wasted time. So think, in your own mind, what's your best-case-scenario, realistically achieveable outcome from where you now stand (given that there's no magic genie available)? Once you know where you want to get, you can start moving in that direction.

Or as DNM has said much more succinctly, what you need now is a plan.

Consider this, sir.

In the situation of infidelity, the best revenge is happiness and success.

Even more so, it is happiness and success with the betrayer.

How so? Because of all the things that a WS believes they deserve, the continued love and support of their BS is not one.

Take care of yourself; start eating right, exercise, get in the best shape of your life.

Excel in your career without sacrificing time with your family!

Be the best father you know how to be.

Keep a pristine household.

Meet her needs like an MB-style kung-fu master!

She won't know what to do.

Who is this man? Why is he doing this? This isn't what I deserve, is he punishing me?

Why yes, yes you are. Because you refuse to feed the self-loathing, the self-destructive feelings by brandishing her transgression and giving her the thrashing she believes she deserves.

You are punishing her by loving her unconditionally, supporting her, and protecting her. You are punishing her by showing her that no matter how hard she has tried to destroy the life you built together, no matter how hard she has tried to push you away, that you refuse to budge!

And imagine, one day, having the ultimate revenge; forgiving the unforgivable!

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Strange when put into that context, no?

FWW looks at me every day like I am some kind of alien, and tells me all the time how she doesn't deserve for me to be here.

Good. Cause she ain't getting what she deserves.

GO and HHH thank you. I just don�t see how WW and OM could have been so connected and only have SF twice in 3 months that it had turned PA. I just don�t understand that. It has only been a week since SF with WW and she wanted it so badly last night. Even though I wasn�t in the mood I went along with it cause I could see that she wanted and possibly needed it. I don�t perform like I used to be able to because all I still see is WW and OM. I guess that also takes a toll on my confidence. So I guess for me in my mind it is how she can go barely a week with me when our relationship is very distressed but when her relationship with OM was like heaven how could she go almost 3 months without having more SF with OM than the 2 times that she has admitted too. I just don�t believe it.

Others have suggested a polygraph test. As ML pointed out, a number of BS's have found a measure of peace after their WS takes a polygraph. Many times the WS will crack a day or two before the test and 'spill the beans'.

I read on your W's thread that she offered to take a polygraph, and found a couple of places to perform the test. What have you got to lose?