While I agree about labeling. There are times when the label makes all the difference. It allows for understanding as well as directs appropriate or more directed treatment. It also allows for recognition of expected behaviors and how those behaviors typically manifest and often what those behaviors mean. In Bi-polar disorder, understanding the manic and dysthymic/depressive modes allows for understanding outside of normal circumstances. ie There doesn't HAVE to be a understandable reason for someone to be acting the way they happen to be acting at any given time.

Ignoring diagnoses and the understanding inherant within, in an effort to 'maintain' neutrality simply because you don't have a 'degree' can be as devastating as mislabeling.


IMO

I don't know - I think my Al-Anon training kicks in at some point. My mother would never consent or submit to a psychological screening. She's an expert at gaslighting. Because I see it and got the worst of it, I live the furthest away from her. I'm the only child who can't be at her side in a matter of minutes - for me it's hours. We didn't speak for three years at one point. I won't be manipulated, dominated or controlled by her illness.

She's not as whacked out now - I'm guessing menopause eased some of her symptoms. And bi-polar also imitates other personality disorders and mental illnesses, so while she manifested the extreme cycling when I was a child, she also appeared to be enough in control in public that I really felt crazy.

I think for me, I'll leave the diagnosing up to the professionals, recognize there is an abnormal current running her and keep my distance - someone was talking about loving detachment on another thread - that's what I have to do.

I agree with both of you.

Regardless of labeling/diagnosing...the actions of your WW are the same.

It's the actions.

And Kayla's experience with gaslighting is what your WW was doing...saying she wasn't doing what she was doing while she was doing it.

Hugely validating. Sans diagnoses/labeling.

Hugely validating.

She really was doing. Period.

You aren't crazy and neither was Kayla. And you both figured it out...

one of you, Just.



Grateful to God...and no wonder you were struggling so much with your addiction to your WW, JFIT...because that's what this gaslighting dance becomes, in really subtle ways...we know that dance, even when we don't know we're dancing it...and you're gonna miss it, the exhilarating parts (not the crashes), and even the mis-defined reality...just for awhile.

And in glimpses, you won't. I do believe God is in the works, in your marriage, and there for you. Not ignoring, not neutral...he's at work. And he works.

LA

The funny thing is that since I read those articles, and was hit with EVERYTHING all at once, I have been so much more relaxed and calm. It is like I finally have the 'diagnosis' of my sick marriage, and with that knowledge, it is OK and completely 'deal-with-it-able'. I can't believe the change in my 'mental state' given the understanding which I gained just reading those articles. In fact, it was really the TOTAL acceptance which allowed me to see what has been occurring.

It does make me worry why it is that I 'allowed' it to occur. I SAW EVERYTHING which was occurring, however, I cut it up and put in little 'managable' boxes, not allowing each box of 'crazy' to touch the others. This allowed me to think of only one thing at a time, which allowed me to manage them. I always KNEW it wasn't right, and I never thought things were 'good' since our wedding night. HOWEVER, I just kept thinking that I was put here because I was strong enough to deal with it, as she worked it all out.

I NOW realize that I could have been made out of GRANITE and had the patience of Job, and Nothing would have changed. The only change occurred when I quit allowing myself to be walked on and manipulated. I had finally, after 3 years, reached even MY breaking point. And when I did, I quit playing the games she was manipulating me with. THAT was when SHE couldn't take it any longer. When I quit playing, she couldn't tolerate the 'REALITY' of life, and had to bolt. I believe that is why she could never go to more than 3 sessions of MC together. The first 2 were kind of 'historical' but when the 3rd rolled around, and it became "Work", she just didn't have the 'work' in her toolbox, so she had to bolt. When I finally learned how to not be as reactive to her 'fury' and just worked right on through her craziness, she was at a loss and had to leave. She had no other choice and had to do it before she was 'found out'.

I have read about Borderline Personality Disorder for a couple years. It was just that MY perception of Borderlines, were those whom I worked with in the LOCKED WARD of the hospital when I was a psychologist. She was basically functional, so it was much harder to interpret her as exhibiting Borderline Traits rather than just basic 'crazy wife pissed at her husband' traits. But when I REALLY began reading, more and more things began to merge, and when I finally read the page where my LIFE over the last 6 years had been written, I REALIZED just how much I had been blocking from consciousness.

Now that I DO realize it, it is odd, because the Angst of my LOVE for her is no longer apparent. I love her, but it feels like a completely different way than I did before. I can recognize the things which I 'thought' were her LOVE were in a large part, simple manipulation of me in order to gain something for HER. NOT LOVE OF ME and FOR ME. Given that revalation, I can see so much less connection than I had before.

My MC (IC now) and even my preacher said that they felt that our marriage hadn't really ever 'taken hold' or 'put down roots' and that is so very true. It is almost like I WASN'T actually married, and that is sad to the extreme. It wasn't that I didn't love her, but it is that the community and connection between Lovers, Husband and Wife, and Mother and Father were NEVER THERE. It was almost like we were 'playing marriage' rather than 'being married'.

So my current calm is quite nice. I hope it is a beginning rather than transient.

I am feeling so much better, it is hard to explain. I just feel 'different'. I am still sad about my marriage because I love my wife. However, the freedom of understanding why nothing I did ever had the effect it 'should' have has so changed my baseline confusion, that I can now recognize just how badly things were, almost constantly.

I recognize that I no longer have the baseline 'anxiety' which I had almost constantly while married. I was always checking, testing, thinking about, trying to avoid, trying to improve EVERYTHING that I had even the smallest amount of control over, in an effort to improve our marriage. This might sound good, however, I was spending so much EMOTIONAL energy on all of this that I simply couldn't maintain. EVERYTHING had the option to either be 'good' for our marriage or more often "BAD" for our marriage. I don't have that sense any longer. I don't have the dread of 'screwing up' no matter what I do. I don't have the dread of unfulfilled ENs with little thought that they will ever BE MET. I didn't realize how much this was drawing me down, but it really was. I was avoiding all sorts of 'life' because I didn't want to feel the 'let down' of a Potential EN MEETING, being ignored once again.

It is still sureal. Just boom... OVER... no contact. Just like a death I suspect. It does kind of worry me, in that since I have realized so much, I have truly felt 'moved on'. It just doesn't seem 'RIGHT'. It seems like it should have taken MORE pain and MORE difficulty. Believe me, there was alot, and maybe that is the difference. I didn't have the rug pulled out from under my feet this time. I never even got ONTO the rug to begin with. So maybe the trauma and trouble I felt during my first divorce, which hit me so hard and fast, has been occurring for so long, that the 'recovery' phase is much less severe simply because I have been living the 'trouble' all along.

But anyway, I feel alot better than I did WHILE married and certainly immediately afterwards. I really miss my girls, but I believe that it is better this way. I simply cannot have contact with them, in a reasonable form, without getting sucked into my wife's world. I KNOW I couldn't, and I would be back to trying to make things better, for her and the girls, putting myself under the wheels in the process, once again.

Hey Just, I'm glad to hear that things are going well and that you're feeling better.

You do a really good job of writing/expressing your thoughts and feelings and I appreciate reading about your progress. Our situations are actually pretty similar (I've wondered if WH was BPD for years, but it's so hard to really believe it even though I dx and treat mental illness as a career!)- so I can relate to a lot of what you write, on both a professional level as well as a personal one.

I think it's probably pretty normal that you feel you have 'moved on' with your healing so quickly because so much of your pain and struggle was spent while you were still IN the marriage, trying to fix things that just couldn't be fixed. Now that you've made sense of things and understand why those things couldn't be fixed despite your best efforts, I hope you continue to heal and grow.

Quote from one of my friends about this situation...

We were talking about dating etc. He was baffled by how things were so skewed. He couldn't understand how I could have missed the problems when we were dating. I told him that what I saw early, I assumed was real, and what I saw later I assumed was because I wasn't doing what I needed to be doing to cause her to feel how she felt EARLY on.

When I told him how things were early on and then the way things changed...

He said...

"You were being you... and she was being you. That was the problem."

And that was absolutely the truth. SHE was being ME. She was taking on the things I LIKED as her own, and I was ignorant or blind to the fact that those things were not HER, just a reflection of ME which she was portraying.

My word... no WONDER I felt so confused about everything all along... I fell in love with a portrayal of myself. There is no wonder I felt like we fit together so well.

I'm sorry--it's not really funny, but I snorted anyway when I read your last 2 sentences. What a deft way of describing what happened. As an RN of almost 41 years, I only hope your charting has such clarity!

tl

Heh... Thunder... it is amazing at how much more succinct I can be while charting.


.............


I have been giving things alot of thought for the last 2 months. I am at a pretty good place, overall. I miss my girls terribly, and have some days which are certainly worse than others. However, I know that I can't have any contact with them because I could not stay out of the tangle of my wife's world.

I feel so badly for her. I love her and further more I actually CARE ALOT about her. If there was a way in which she could ever see her issues and really work them out, I would STILL stay with her. However, I have absolutely no thoughts that it will occur. I no longer say this out of guilt. I no longer say this out of hope. I don't do it for manipulation or fear of being alone. I say it simply because it is true. The woman I love and care for is not capable of loving me back in a meaningful way. That understanding has allowed me a unique view of both her and MY future.

My first marriage was rocked by lies, adultery, and blindness to the world. It was easy to be angry and feel the strings which held me to her, to be cut by each and every intereaction. Everytime I dealt with her, it literally felt as though more strings were cut. Now, however, I just don't feel many strings at all. I think they were cut or never formed during our marriage. We simply had so much trouble for so long, that they were cut long ago or simply what I felt had been there, was more because of my OWN sense of responsibility and DESIRE for them to be there. NOT because they were ever formed.

So now, it is easy... perhaps easier, once again, than I would ever think it should be. I remained concerned that it could simply be reactionary, however, I don't believe so. I no longer think about my marriage much, and although I absolutely do miss having a 'wife' I can clearly see that I never had a 'wife' in the sense that I would miss. The wife I had was a person who did several things a wife would typically do, however, ignored so much of the most IMPORTANT things a wife would do, that without her, I feel like I have not been missing very much. That might seem cruel, and I am sure if she reads this, she will read it with the worst possible slant to it. That is not what I am meaning however. I am meaning that we have led such separate lives for so long, that the few ways in which we intereacted were NOT the important ones for me. I constantly TRIED to gain those important interactions, however, she would have nothing to do with it. Therefore, the things which she DID DO, were not the important ones for me, therefore, there are not those things to 'miss'.

I wish it was different. I wish she had wanted to be the person who fulfilled my ENs. However, she was not, and I am finally OK with that fact. I no longer take the responsibility for her actions upon myself. I no longer believe that 'had I been doing something different, better, perfect... she would have been responding normally'. I recognize that I DID do things pretty damn well, and there was no response. And understanding WHY this was the case, allows me to move on without all the animosity I felt for my first wife. My first wife made the CHOICE to be the way she was/is and to act in that fashion. My second wife, God love her, is just the way she is, and although it certainly is her choice to act the way she does, it is based upon a personality disorder which precludes her from even seeing she HAS a problem, much less recognizing that her view of circumstances could be skewed.

I finally realize asking her to LOVE me in a way which was meaningful to ME, is akin to asking her to jump off the ground and FLY. I can ask, explain, read about, etc. in every way I can in order to explain that I would like her to fly, but she just does NOT have that ability. She might even go so far as go through the motions, but in the end, she just doesn't have what it takes to fly... any more than she has what it takes to Love me in a way which I understand and feel.

This understanding has allowed me to be OK with all of this. Yes, I remain saddened, because I do care about her. But I also realize that it does not matter one bit what I feel. And that is finally OK.

Heh...

All kinds of hell is about to break loose around here, and for some reason rather than dreading it I am almost giddy.

It makes no sense... maybe it is just that so much has changed recently, that I feel so good about actually having a future rather than simply being worn down by the past.

Regardless, I am blessed to have 2 great boys and a great job. I have opportunities which most only dream about and a loving mom and dad. Lots going to happen in the next couple of months, and for some reason, I just want to sing, workout, and paint. If I was looking at myself from the outside, I would say that I was in denial. However, I clearly recognize everything which is happening in my life, but I am simply not 'worried' about it.

My dad has Prostate CA and is having surgery in a couple weeks. I am confident he will be fine. I have a divorce to finalize, hopefully soon. Child support laws drastically changed in my state and I might be paying double what I pay now, even though I have half time custody.

And when I look at everything... I am a lucky man.

I have come to look at everything which happens in life as colors. The good and the bad are simply colors within my life. And with ALL the colors, my life becomes a painting with more character and brilliance. Without the bad (dark) colors, it would be difficult to understand the bright (good) colors. Because, if you paint... you know that the best way to 'highlight' something, is to add a shadow to help bring it out. Without the shadows in life... our lives would be a canvas of only a couple bright colors. And while that 'sounds' good, it is boring and insubstantial.

I pray every night and thank God for ALL the experiences in my life. I look at everything as God putting another 'tube of paint' in my box, allowing me to express myself 'just that much better' with a more worldly view.

The more a man knows, the more he forgives. - Confucius

Things have been going pretty well lately. Lots of 'crap' coming up I suspect, but all in all, nothing which isn't to be expected and nothing which is any worse than what has happened before. At least there is an end in sight at this point.

Some things I have been really thinking about which have concernend me have come to some sort of 'thought' resolution. I have been tormenting myself, even with the understanding of my wife's personality disorder, about what to 'expect' or at least 'believe' depending upon what a man does in life.

Basically, it is because over the last 3-4 years, I have 'been' the person women are constantly talking about wanting. I was being that person for my wife, no others, and because on the baseline... that is just 'who I am'. I have remained in counseling, and basically my counselor believes my main issue is that... I am NOT SELFISH ENOUGH! He says that I have been to forgiving and willing to forego love coming TO ME while continueing to GIVE LOVE.

This is correct in a sense. I was certainly willing to continue to be loving, kind, generous, etc... all thinking that if I was ENOUGH of those things, my wife would respond. I constantly put that upon myself, as my wife's failure to respond was directly related to my inability to do what I needed to be doing. This was despite her inability to point at anything which I was doing 'wrong', it was just that actions didn't result in relatively expected outcomes.

I liken it to dropping a ball from an outstretched hand. Everyone will tell you that the outcome from doing so will be that the ball falls and hits the floor. Simple, drop the ball, it will hit the floor. No ifs, ands, or buts. However, my marriage felt like me dropping the ball, and sometimes it would shoot up towards the sky... sometimes veer off to the side, sometimes dip and then ascend again... and RARELY it would actually 'hit' the floor. Over and over again, I would drop the ball and the expected or reasonable outcome would not occur. And on those rare occasions in which it 'did' occur, I put all my heart and far too much care on THOSE rare instances as being the 'true' state of the overall situation.

My marriage was like that... in that I would do the 'things' people all over the world would say I should be doing, and the consequence of those actions would NOT be as intended or for the most part even remotely similar. On the rare occasion that the stars, moon, and planets all did align, and she actually seemed like she understood and valued me, I ended up putting far to much emphasis that these rare occasions were the 'real her' and all the other crap was just that... 'CRAP'.

Now, I worry... and wonder... whether the things I did were actually what I thought I was doing and whether the things I do naturally, are the things women say they really want. I am naturally giving... and not enough naturally 'taking'. I KNOW I want things, but am willing to give regardless of anything coming towards me. Now, this is where I am currently having some problems, because my Christian faith says that I am doing what I should be doing. However, it has failed me, in my execution of it, twice now. My counselor says that I tend to fall in love with women who are needy and are very good at taking, but who have little if any ability to give. Thus they fit perfectly with my willingness to give without much receiving.

However, this is where it is hard for me. I WANT LOTS... but have not chosen women who consistently GIVE LOTS. I Give LOTS and have found women perfectly willing to receive that giving. Early on, my wife acted like she was giving. She actually WAS VERY giving, however, I see that this was not her baseline, it was merely her TRYING to be what I needed. She reflected back to me, who I was. However this was not her.

Now I wonder how do I avoid this in the future? How do I avoid 'getting what I want' in a relationship, when it isn't real??? I made the mistake of telling my wife what I wanted in a wife, early on. And she GAVE that to me. But it wasn't who she was, and she couldn't make it part of her, so immediately upon marriage it halted. How do I trust that someone ELSE might actually BE A GIVING PERSON, and want to give to me, the things I desire, as I give HER the things she desires?

Man... it is enough to make your head spin. I am a very trusting person at heart... to my detriment up to now. NOW I find myself being worried about my very nature. The very things about me which I should be proud of have been taken advantage of by two different women. It scares me, because I want to be giving, kind, generous, loving, romantic, exciting, etc. But I want those things from my lover/wife/etc as well, but I want her to BE those things inside herself, not merely acting like that on the outside to catch me.

Ugggghhhhh.....

My IC (MC) says it is tragic... he doesn't often have someone in counseling for being 'too nice'.

Any tips on dealing with repeated lies during the divorce? She has jumped off the deep end.

Off to court, I am not playing this back and forth lying crap.

Did you happen to get the book "Splitting" (protecting yourself when divorcing BPD)???

Unfortunately, the lies are par for the course when dealing with BPD.

Keep very good documentation about every contact you have with her (dates and details) to help protect yourself. Better yet, try to not have conversation or contact with her at all and if you must, not without having an honest (mentally healthy) witness present.

Does your lawyer know she's BPD? I actually saw the book 'Splitting' on my lawyer's desk, you might want to present the issues that you will more than likely be facing with your W to your lawyer as a head's up.

JFIO

Your story really moved me.
You chose the words to describe exactly what I have lived.

If I only love enough, eventually some of the love must come back to me.
If I could only be helpful and kind enough, the other person will eventually trust me.
If the other person would only understand how it hurts he/she will stop doing that.
If...

Talk and self-help books only work for spouses which are fairly normal. The gaslighting, the entitlement, the lack of love, the lies, the fact that you start doubting yourself, if it is really your fault... After having spent way too many years trying to love a narcissist into a warm-hearted person, I could write a book (or two). (By the way NPD and BPD have overlapping characteristics, you might want to have another look at the DSM IV concerning your ex.)
You probably know the famous experiment of the little monkeys which grew up without their real mother, and who clutched unto the fur or unto the iron mother. In hindsight I was hanging unto the iron-wired mother, trying to melt a lifeless rock into a real person. You cannot love somebody like that back to health. It is a bottemless pit. Sad for you, but even sadder for them. They will never know the reason for their unhappiness.

I am an M.D. too. I was amazed how easy a relationship could be once I found my true love. How easy it is too be with a normal person. You can't imagine. After years having done everything in every book and having sore knees from praying. It was like having struggled though thick mud and suddenly discovering you can fly!
You might want to read Dr Joe Carvers Articles: Love and the Stockholm Syndrome (as to why you stay too long) and Signs you are dating a loser http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html



Some quotes which I found applicable:

There are no victims, only volunteers � Dr Phil

if i could only make him/her understand what he/she is putting me through... They do understand and are making it perfectly clear to you that your needs do not matter to them. - Wayne and Tamara Mitchel

forgiveness does not mean that you put someone in the position to let them coninue to hurt you. - Wayne and Tamara

If a person is nice at first and then turns nasty, the easiest explanation is that they weren't nice to begin with and succeeded to hide that for some time. (Instead of the other way around.)
Sometimes the first impression you had from a person is not the real them. They were just pretending and manipulating long enough so that you would be captured. - me

If you go into a relationship with a loving heart and honesty and the other person sets out to deceive and manipulate and lie to you, you will in all probability not see through it as an honest person. It is not your fault. - Oprah (to the woman who had a relationship with a nice man... who murdered his pregnant wife while dating this woman)

People will always give themselves away with the stories they tell about themselves and by what they brag about. - Dr Joe Carver

So when you vote for a politician, or hire an employee, or choose a neighbor or a date: don�t ask yourself if they are charming or make you feel good. Ask yourself if they listened and thought about what you said. (Note from me: in the beginning they can listen to you, until they know what makes you tick, so they can manipulate you. Listen to the stories from how other people treated them (badly of course, they were the innocent victims of their environment) Look for examples of when they learned from making a mistake (you can even ask them that question). Ask what their self-doubts are. Charm can interfere with your objective observations and even your negative gut feelings.
Beware! Never stop paying attention and thinking. That�s what pathological narcissists do. It�s not surprising that what offends us most about them is that they are rude, uncaring, and �thoughtless people.� I think that�s the key difference between healthy narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder:� thoughtfulness. - Bill Eddy


In general: beware of people who have a history of being mistreated and are pityfull beings, or who tell you over and over about their problems. Run, you are not their therapist. Let them find someone else to deal with their whining. You had better choose someone who is cheerful and has a realisticly positive outlook for the future. Someone resilient and dependable who can pick herself up after falling.
I also made the mistake of wanting to rescue people. You can't rescue them, they will only drag you down with them. Let them join a self-help-group. Nowadays I run from disfunctional people, because it does not work that way and you know as a licensed psychologist, that you cannot treat someone to which you have too close a connection.

I wish you all the happiness in the world. In 2 years from now you will be more of your true self than you have been in the last years. I am certain, that you will not make the same mistake. You will have learned and naturally be more cautious.
I wish you God's blessing.

This is the thing about which I am most fearful. I was played maximally, I can see that now. I just hope that my head works better. I really MUST develop my ability to walk away from lies. I had that opportunity so many times, but I kept believing that she would 'see the light' and see how good things could be.

I appreciate your thoughts and your encouragement. I ESPECIALLY appreciate the fact that you have found someone who loves you in a GOOD and APPROPRIATE way! This makes all the difference to me, that someone like me, with similar issues, has learned from them, and found a way to NOT repeat the same behaviors.

In my gut I KNOW that there are women out there who are loving, kind, and honest. It is just that, my choices have thus far been to be drawn to the ones who simply 'PRETEND' to be so. My fear is two fold... that I WON'T be able to walk away if I see things which are bad... or that I will be TOO QUICK to walk away, because I am gunshy.

I have no fear about trying again, I am just not sure how long and what it will really take to learn to trust. I am hopeful and actually excited to find out. I have lived too many years without any love of substance. I relish the thought that there might be a woman out there who in her heart, wants what I have to offer, not just the finances I can earn. I think I am going to invent a little LED screen which stays over everyone's head. It will have readouts on a scale from 1 - 10 on different attributes of the person. ie, Honesty, integrity, work ethic, ability to love, etc etc. This will allow everyone to simply look over the person's head, and determine if they are someone who they wish to become involved with.

Signed the final papers today.

Mixed emotions... alot of sadness but mostly because it is just sureal in the way that everything occurred as well as trying to think about my entire marriage.

I go back and forth understanding and then unbelieving how my actions could have had no good effect upon her behavior. I had always believed, and married her believing, that I could Love her enough for her to return to the person she had been when I asked her to marry me. I recognize the folly. I recognize that the person I 'remember' was never real, but a shell... a chameleon color if you will, that could only be held so long.

But... regardless... what little marriage we ever had is no more.

I have been feeling so much better... my relationship with my boys has improved greatly, without me trying to ride the fence between her and them. We have had time to do alot of things which we could never have done before as well.

I just have to keep my head on straight. I have been getting pressure from several corners to begin dating, and while I really want to, I know that at this moment, I am probably far to vulnerable to anyone who actually could show me TRUE attention, not the Take alot give alittle, which I have had for so long.

It blows my mind, when I read on here sometimes, listening to WOMEN talk about how much they care and try to love their husbands. The lengths they will go to improve their marriage and themselves. I have just never seen that in reality outside of my mom and dad. Both of my wives were truly maximally takers, and it completely blows my mind to understand FINALLY... that they are NOT the only thing out there. That thier behavior and choices are NOT representative of all women. It lightens my heart and fills me with hope. Hope that there is someone out there who will truly love me and want to give that love TO ME rather than merely be good enough to get everything out of me.

But... today... (well basically) I am free.

Final and official.

Man... it still just breaks my heart.

To be so willing to give... to be so willing to love... to be so willing to forgive... to love her daughters as my own... to be so willing to protect them all... to be so willing to provide everything for them all...

and for it to be completely thrown away...

I have taken a while to try to get my head around my life. Trying to understand what has been going on and what needs to change in order to learn from the experience.

I believe I have found a major issue within myself, which has led me to the attraction to my Borderline Ex and my inability to walk away when I knew it was the best for both of us.

I found the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover. Truthfully, it has changed my outlook on what I have been doing. And ladies, NO... it isn't a 'how to be a [censored]' book at all. It is based upon what is coined the 'Nice Guy syndrome' which fits me to a T. I put up with so much bad behavior from BOTH of my exs, and my reaction was that I needed to be doing better. If I was 'good enough' they would respond, and since they weren't responding, this merely meant I wasn't good enough. I gave and gave and gave, without anything in return, and my assumption remained that I hadn't given enough. I backed up further and further, and even when my feet were on the cliff face, I felt it was my duty and responsibility to find a way to back up further.

This is the basis of the book and within it, I have read my basic biography from childhood to the current day.

Men, I would recommend you read the book and see if it represents you. I know that I have read so many Posts by so many men on these boards, which sound so much like myself, I really think that if nothing else, reading the book is a possibility in finding a direction.

I will post a separate post in the coming days with more information about it. I just wanted to update you on what is going on with me and let you know that I am well... and actually for the first time, feel that there is a definite light at the end of my personal tunnel.

Glad you are on the recovery path. Is there a "No More Mrs. Nice Guy" version? I usually write up my niceness to being the "middle child" -- the pleaser.

FYI, There is a thread about this very book over on Marriage Builders 101. The name was changed. It was started by Barbiecat maybe about a month ago. Sorry I don't know how to link the threads.