Ever wonder if part of what he isn't telling you may be in the same vein as to why you withheld information?

Is it possible that despite his pain and suffering, he just can't imagine hurting you?

How do your breakdown interactions go?

He doesn't ask. I am not disrespecting his need for honesty about the A. He just doesn't ask me any questions about it anymore. The last questions about the A he asked are along the lines of "Is there anything you haven't told me?" "Have you told me everything?" "Have you told me the truth?"

I have written and verbally told him about my feelings/emotions during the A. That was not what he wanted to hear. He wanted details. So we did the timeline thing with all the bills/statements so he could get those details.**


**is that what you were referring to, HHH, about the breakdown interactions? there was really just the one session with all the bills...it went fairly smoothly, businesslike. I don't recall H getting upset although I may have gotten upset when I didn't remember something - like the cell phone location thing - obviously I'd gotten out of the office at lunchtime but was I on a random trip to the store or to grab some lunch..I couldn't remember and I'd get upset because I thought he'd think I was lying again. And when we were done, together we took all the paperwork and went outside and burned it. He told me we were done with it, he didn't need it anymore. The one after I'd left him my "feelings novel" (prior to the bills one) didn't go so well as he was very disappointed in it, it wasn't what he was looking for.

JC said I am not being completely O&H with H now over what I am feeling in our recovery - i.e., I am not following POJA - not being honest with him over things that I am not enthusiastic/happy about, and not being honest over things that are hurting me. Although she said I have to be careful and use my best judgement at pointing out any of H's LBs right now - so, essentially, I haven't been pointing out ANY LBs. But somehow I don't think this is the O&H H is referring to (am I DJ'ing?). He's stuck on the doubts he has playing in his mind over my A.

So what do I do? Sit him down and hash back through the entire thing with him again, start to finish?


I don't know...he's so withdrawn that I feel like he doesn't notice my hurt...regardless we're hurting each other right now anyway. Terribly. I'm doing everything I can think of to try NOT to hurt him but it's like he's a trauma patient and I can't stop the bleeding.



Thanks - any feedback and support is appreciated!

Poetic: "He's like a trauma patient and I can't stop the bleeding."

FWW kind of echoes this when I have a bad day. We've talked about it, and she tells me it's confusing; how do you comfort someone when you are the one who caused their pain?

What I mean by breakdown interaction, is how does each of you react to the other when you hit a breaking point?

Adding; sometimes I shut down and refuse to talk because the anger and pain rises to the point that I cannot take part in a constructive conversation.

This is a point I need to bring up in my own thread, though my FWW has requested that I just be O&H BEFORE I reach that point so that we can talk it through.

I hold back on that request because I feel like it will just keep us in the muck. Dunno...

Yes - definitely - especially when they don't feel safe with you, and are in withdrawal.


Sorry I misunderstood - was thinking breakdown meant literally "breaking things down"...Actually pretty simple answer. He withdraws. I get upset. I am better at managing my LBs at this point to where I just need to kind of get by myself (as JC put it when I spoke w/her, if I need to go in the bathroom and shut the door and have a good cry...just do it!). But I still get upset and do things that probably seem to be childish (stuff like throwing the journal I was making in the trash - I'll be honest and admit that after reading his thread yesterday I threw the note I left him on the bed AND the new lingerie in the trash). If I can get by myself I can usually sort things out and calm down. We're not even interacting with each other right now, I'm only reacting to the stuff I've read (which is why I am going to stay off his thread), maybe it's at least a positive that most of my "breakdowns" aren't occurring in front of H. I don't know.

He withdraws. Won't speak to me. Won't even look at me. It's like I don't exist to him. He had two angry-borderline violent episodes but they occurred months ago - the first was the night I finally admitted to PA - he didn't hit me but he drew back his fist and almost did - broke every picture in the bedroom. The second was the day he threw his wedding ring into the lake, shoved me, cursed me in front of the girls, punched the steering wheel in the car. Can't even remember the exact date. Honestly have tried to forget both those days. I wish I could forget. That's not what I want to remember about my H. What I hear when he rejects and withdraws now is his voice from that first night calling me a wh*re.


H said something similar to me once, that he shut down because he didn't want to say something he couldn't take back. And yes, his withdrawal is much less frightening to me than his anger. The times I saw his anger terrified me.



I don't know either, HHH...Dr. Harley says that every time you talk about the A, you are withdrawing Love Units from each other. His advice was not to talk about the A all the time - more like you save up your questions and things and have one conversation rather than asking one question here, one there, etc...obviously as more questions arise, there may need to be another A conversation...there's an article somewhere, I'll try to find it or maybe one of the vets will beat me to it!

If it's other things that you are needing her to be O&H about, well if we are following MB advice we must be radically honest with our spouses. I don't know how she's feeling, but for me I struggle with O&H because I am afraid if H knows how hard I struggle or how close I get sometimes to giving up, that it would only make HIM worse - does that make sense? It has nothing to do with the A for me, it's all about how I feel now. It's the constant feeling of keeping my Taker at bay and trying to let my Giver work and feeling so drained. Ignoring his LBs and not having my needs met. JC's advice to me was not to address H's LBs right now as he has to be on board with MB first. One caveat - if there are huge, blatant ones, I can use my best judgment as to how to address. Him becoming a part of this online community is a big step towards that, I hope, but he's not there yet. I need him to come to me and tell me that he's ready, he's on board.

Another point on withdrawal is that it is a typical male response. Men withdraw in the face of conflict with someone they love - women, however, "confront to connect." Explains why a woman will follow her husband all around the house arguing while he's just trying to get away. Read the book "Love & Respect" by Emerson Eggerichs if you haven't already - good stuff.

Kids are getting antsy - promised them a corn maze today. Invited H to go, I'll leave it up to him.

I just wanted to echo some of those things. My wife would sometimes interpret my withdrawl as pouting, which infuriated me almost as much as the original event that triggered the withdrawl in the first place! It was safer for me to just shut down than to actually speak my mind and risk an AO or DJ.

JC would always tell me that the truth wrapped in a DJ is still a lovebuster....the difference between radical honesty and brutal honesty, I guess. She figured me out pretty quickly and told my W that my withdrawl was not only to protect myself from further hurt, but to protect her feelings from me AO'ing or DJ'ing.

Like HHH said, if I can't have a constructive conversation - or express my needs/feelings/thoughts in an MB-correct way, it was safer to withdraw than cause further damage. Our situation is different than yours, and I don't know if this is where your BH is, but there you go.

BTW we used to live in the RTP area. Gorgeous out there, especially this time of year.

Exactly. Many men -- self included -- had experiences when we were younger that taught us that combining male strength with anger is an extremely bad idea. I broke a kid's arm. A close friend of mine put another kid in the hospital.

These aren't exceptions. Having a terrifying experience as a result of our own anger and strength combined are NORMAL experiences for many young males. The lesson we draw from that is that if we don't keep a tight check on our anger, we are capable of some extremely dangerous actions.

My wife used to always do the "follow me around when she wants to talk" thing. The trouble is, introducing a talk with "we need to talk" immediately puts the man on the defensive. It implies that he doesn't know that he should be talking about something, which is a DJ. Usually, the thing the wife wants to talk about is something the husband is doing wrong, which is extremely touchy ground to avoid another DJ, and often SDs for what she thinks he should be doing about it.

Often, a male's best bet to avoid anger overflowing into violence is to remove himself from the situation.

I just want to say that I feel sooo much pain and anger for what I have done to my BH and my family.Having a A destroys such a big part of a marriage and I have a realy hard time dealing with my own pain and disgust of myself .

Like you when I think of what I did and who I did it with I get so angry with myself and call myself every dirty thing I can think of.

My BH refuses to yell or call me names. Even when I wish he would.He like to think thing through and then dissect everything.Which is a good thing but sometimes I get so sad because Of how much he loves me and I threw that away.


We are still in very early stages of recovery but I think when I finally told him the whole truth and all the gory details that helped him not to be in withdrawal all the time.

He did have to pry for details because I didn't think that they were necessary.I know now I was just trying to protect him from further pain.

My BH still has very bad days which are rally hard to deal with.I feel so helpless.They always come after good days and that throws me off balance I feel like crap when I wake up happy and find him in a funk. So what might seem like smothering I don't leave his side. If he goes in the bedroom so do I even if theres no contact Ill lay there and just look at him.

The other night was a really bad one he wouldn't even look at me which absolutely killed me! I did everything I could ran him a bubble bath gave him a massage told him no matter how much he tries to push me away I'm not going anywhere and that I was sorry that I wasn't there before. He didn't say much other then I was stubborn and that's ok.


I guess my advise to you is even when it seems so helpless even the smallest gestures that you do do impact him even if you don't see them.I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel.Sorry for this is so long just venting;.

Wolfpackgirl
The six month to twelth month are known as the anger phase. Many a BH go through it. Some never do. Some never leave it.

You are working hard to repair things. But this is not a building, road, or any other physical object. So putting more people on the job, working a second shift, using bigger machines is not going to get things done faster.

Recovery can take two to five years.

Is it fair for someone being a WS having an affair for two to five months have to wait up to five years for recovery to be done?

Well it has nothing to do with fairness. It's what happens after an affair.

Changes during recovery can not usually be measured in days. Remembering this may help you to be able to get focused on your goal.

Remember this and think about this. Any WS can be the perfect spouse after the affair. Do everything perfect to recover marriage. Then after a year or two or three and the BS wants a divorce.

You have to work as a aerial artist without a net. No guarantees you will not be dropped.

Sounds just like JC's advice! She told me quite a bit along the same lines - for example, not to try and "educate" H because I'm committing a DJ by implying I know more than he does - she said it was just like saying, "Hey, stupid!"

Thanks to bitbucket & DNM for providing the male point of view on the anger issue. And see, pre-A I could never understand why H would withdraw from me. I absolutely HATE that it took an A for me to truly LEARN how to have a real marriage - how to understand my H and how to best let him understand me. I can only hope the knowledge is not too little, too late.


Thanks for your post, NeverGoBack. It's hard not to see yourself that way, sometimes. I've read luri's posts about how she used to feel like she'd wear a scarlet letter A forever. I feel that way now - like today, I was out with the kids and there's this thought in the back of my mind, like everyone can look at me and see how truly disgusting I am. GloveOil's posts really helped me to recognize how useless beating myself up is - I can't focus on my H if I am focused on wallowing in the bottom of the pit of despair. That's not to say I don't ever find myself there, certainly! But it's something that gives me the strength to crawl out. Mark posted some good advice to me about the concept of forgiveness - God's forgiveness and being able to accept that.


I think that is part of what frustrates my H now, how he had to pry for details - that I didn't admit to anything until he had evidence to prove it. We, as FWWs, only *think* we're protecting them, but in reality we're protecting ourselves. We don't want to face the awfulness of what we did. The whole time we were in our FR, I told myself I was protecting H. All I did was show him that I am a coward, and to him the behavior wasn't protective, it was cruelty. He's truly not got a dishonest bone in his body, so for me to look him in the eyes and lie was the worst thing I could have done. I didn't have MB then or maybe I would have learned all that so much sooner. Although ideally I wish I'd had MB years ago - even before DD#1 was born, when I sought counseling because I "wasn't happy." Do you know what the counselor's advice to me was then? She told me to leave him. I didn't want to do that - I wanted her help to "fix" my marriage - so I stopped going to her. Of course now I know that the "fixing" attitude is not right either - I can't "fix" what I've done now.

My thoughts today (well, for the last couple of days) have been along the lines of telling him I'd like to talk about the A, and then taking him through the 2 physical encounters step by step. Telling him he can stop me at any point, and asking him if he wants more details as I go. That's what is missing, the details. He knows the sex happened, but he hasn't pressed for details - his mind has made them up for him. It may be a help to meeting his need for O&H. It may be so painful that he may decide to leave me, but that's his choice. I gave him that card to play when I had an A. People can't control each other - I can't control him now any more than he could control me when I decided to have an A.

Thank you, TheRoad - I appreciate your perpective. It is hard for me to be patient when I know in my heart what I want, and that's my DH. I am scared he won't find his way out of the anger and resentment, and I am angry at myself for putting him there. I know recovery is a long and winding road - a rollercoaster - I guess I just tend to get frustrated when the downs are so much more numerous than the ups, and the downs seem to be neverending. That's just my Taker grumbling...my Giver has to be the patient part of me. JC gave me some things to think about when my Taker is in full swing - "My Reasons" for doing what I am trying to do now:

1 - Because we've never learned this information before. If we learn it, we WILL be happier. The past will be buried under GOOD memories.
2 - This is only a "speck" of time in the grand scheme of things, but the benefits are huge.
3 - I don't want to look back in 10 years and regret giving up. I want to be able to look back in 10 years with a clean conscience and know that I tried everything I could.
4 - This is the best way for my BH to heal.
5 - We model a good marriage for our DD's.
6 - Because I love my BH. Because I want HIM. Because my strategy is to care for him as best as I can NOW.
7 - I do it for me, to help me heal from the guilt and shame.

JC said whenever my Taker is grumbling, to read over my reasons. Do it in the car before I walk in the door from work. In the morning when I wake up. Whenever I need reminding.


Terrifying but apt image. I'm terrified of being dropped. I think part of the process is trying to recover what I lost of me to the A - and believing that if I am dropped, I'll survive. It will not be the life I want to live, a life without DH, but regardless of what happens I have to be OK. I've got 2 little girls to live for.

WPG, don't just dump it on him.

Take some time, and make the offer; "I want to offer you the opportunity to go over what happened from beginning to end, and I will answer honestly any question you ask."

We had a few conversations on the issue, and actually went over the whole thing beginning to end a few times. Each time, my focus was on different details.

Allow him to control the flow of the conversation based what he feels he can handle and what he feels he needs to know.

It was a lot like peeling an onion for me. I had different layers I had to explore.

I have no more curiosity left. I have no more wild imaginations.

I still have images, but they are more based on what actually happened. Now, those conversations and explorations are done, and I can move on to other things.

WPG

"My thoughts today (well, for the last couple of days) have been along the lines of telling him I'd like to talk about the A, and then taking him through the 2 physical encounters step by step. Telling him he can stop me at any point, and asking him if he wants more details as I go. That's what is missing, the details. He knows the sex happened, but he hasn't pressed for details - his mind has made them up for him. It may be a help to meeting his need for O&H."

There is a difference from being O & H, and taking away the control from the BS to how much they want to know about the affair.

When BS�s ask how much detail should they ask. They are told to ask to what ever level they need/want to know, but that once something is asked then answered it can�t be untold. So the BS�s are cautioned to think first before they ask.

WPG, has your BH asked for such deep details before?

If he has you can offer that you can handle answering them now.

If your BH has not asked for such details before then I would not make such an offer now.

If you think your BH needs to talk about the affair you can offer to do so with the further offer to talk about any aspect of the affair that he wants to. This way the BH controls what SF details he wants to hear.

"Take some time, and make the offer; "I want to offer you the opportunity to go over what happened from beginning to end, and I will answer honestly any question you ask."

Great Advice as well.

Well, okay, wpg, except that you don't tell him you'd like to talk about the A; rather, as TheRoad indicated, you tell him that if HE wants to talk about the A -- either now or at a later time -- you are willing to do so. Let HIM ask the questions. Let HIM control the pace. Your contribution is to be willing to give him what he needs, whether that's big gulps or little sips.

Maybe it's not the physical details that are the most important missing info for your H; maybe he wants to try to find out what your mindset was. For instance, over the course of weeks & months, my wife wanted to know where & when, sure, but more so, beyond the "what," she asked me stuff like "Where were the children when you were with her?", or "What were you thinking as you were going to meet her?" or "Whose idea was it to get a hotel for the first time?" and a bunch of other questions related to my state-of-mind. They were questions for which I had answers that, while truthful, could never be any more than partially satisfying. In hindsight now, I think that, at least subconsciously, maybe my wife wanted to know whether I truly "got" & understood just how morally messed up I had been at every stage of the A. I think it was important for her to feel that I had some baseline appreciation of that before she could start feeling comfortable with me again.

Thank you - got it! I will offer him the opportunity and let him take things from there. He asked certain details very early on (he wanted to know if there was any oral involved), he asked for other things later (did I have the big O). You guys are correct in that I don't know whether or not he wants to talk about more details of the A. It has to be something he wants, and he obtains in the way he wants it. All I know is he's stuck on O&H and I want to be able to meet that for him.

Wulff,

No don't just offer to answer his questions. Here is why! You have lied to him repeatedly, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So he will feel that while you answered his questions, you probably did not answer questions about things he did not know enough to ask in the first place.

Did you read my post to you? Do you understand that the issue is within himself at least as much as with you?

I would sit down and write down at least a fairly detailed timeline about the whole thing. Meeting OM, the beginning of the affair, some details of where and certainly how long each part of this went. Outline your basic thoughts then, during false recovery, now. Give him something to work with in his questions.

Then it is often recommended that the BS write down the questions he wants to know the answer to, why he wants to know it, and how it will help him. He should set it aside for a day or so, and then review. If he still feels the need to ask the question, then have him give you the list, the why's and the reasons and you answer them honestly. If there are many, set aside a specific time each week to address say an hour or hour and a half worth of questions.

This lets him see what he wants and it gives you something concrete to work on. Your outline of the affair, should cover all major aspects so that he will understand that he knows what he doesn't know and can ask questions accordingly.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL - yes, I did read your post - and your advice, as always, is excellent! The feelings that he's "second choice" have come up in our conversations (when we have them) often. I did talk about it with JC which was one of the reasons she suggested the new wedding ring. I guess I am not doing well at letting him know he's not second choice in any way - he's not a "consolation prize" for me. Do you think that part of the problem is the ways I show it are not resonating with him? I'm fairly comfortable with showing affection - I've tried to hit all the different "love language" ways of showing it - and tried to make admiration (admiration was ranked higher than affection for him) part of affection, but I don't think I'm doing it right or doing enough of it. I've asked him to give me feedback on how I am meeting his needs, how he'd like them met, and etc. but I don't get feedback. He's told me how he doesn't know what I do at work - and so much of my A was conducted during work hours, communicating with OM - so I do try to communicate with H throughout the day, texts and emails...it's ironic that I spend more effort during my workday now on this forum and reading books and trying to find ways to improve our marriage, things that H doesn't know about, I guess - but it's more effort than I ever put into anything with OM. It's become my full-time job, to the point I'm putting in only a minimal effort in the office these days. I don't know...I need help to show H what is in my heart in a way he will understand - that what's in my heart is that he's not just my first choice, he's my ONLY choice. That he is RIGHT for me. God chose us for each other for a reason - and it wasn't God that had a hand in OM crossing my path again.

I guess too I am confused about what to do to ensure his need for O&H is met. JL, we've done the timeline - and I have also written about how I felt during the A and the FR, what was going on in my head. In my eyes, all he doesn't have are any additional details that he felt like were missing. In his, he doubts I was truthful so he thinks there are events missing from the timeline - does that make sense? That's why I originally wanted to have that conversation with him, which I was advised to then just make the offer of answering any questions he has...I've done that before too, but he asks broad questions like "Is there anything you aren't telling me?" kinds of questions.

Help...just, help...I don't know what to do! I know I've been a little distant from him this week - I've probably given him more space and haven't tried to be as close, and that's my fault for nursing hurt over the whole ring incident. I've still tried to avoid LBs but I haven't done well this week at meeting H's intimate ENs. I have to work harder at getting over my fear of rejection because it is getting in the way of meeting DH's needs.

WPG,

He asked certain details very early on (he wanted to know if there was any oral involved), he asked for other things later (did I have the big O)

Others may differ, but as a guy I have to know the sexual details, and orgasm, and number of orgasms is very high on the list. A guys orgasm is a given, but a womans orgasm and intensity of orgasm equals passion and animal attraction.

Oral sex or not, is huge too, I honestly cannot believe a man could continue to live with a woman and NOT know the details.

God Bless
Gamma

Agreed, G.

I asked the same questions, WPG.

Is there a such thing as BS fog? It mattered to me at that moment, but now I don't care.

It did affect SF.

I can only speak for myself on this, but the other men/BHs can chime in if they feel the same;

A huge part of SF for me is satisfying my wife. The A felt like a threat to my ability to do so. After 10 years, I know every face, every sound, every movement my wife goes through when she is enjoying SF, and I know what it looks like when she is not.

I know her kiss.

Now, I have the image of OM delivering what was my exclusive privilege for all this time, what I thought would always be my exclusive privilege.

Still early in recovery right now, so sometimes I trigger during SF. It's HORRIBLE.

It's my competitive spirit, and my focus that, for me, fulfillment is met when I connect with and pleasure my W that allows me to carry on.

She catches it sometimes. But, I try my damndest to not let it break me.

Today, I live in the little moments.

WPG,

You asked First of all this is one of those things where the genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

Let me offer some thoughts but not advice. I hope others will chime in and discuss these thoughts as well as you. I am sort of a take charge kind of person, that is once I have decided what direction I want to go so bear in mind that this is my bias.

I think the truth is that during your affair he was probably not even second choice. You were not thinking of him you were thinking primarily of OM. You might as well tell him that...right up front. My point in this soliloquy is to point out that your best bet may be the direct approach. It lays this in his lap. Now he is the Bs and he is deeply hurt, but my guess is that if he is like many of us guys, what he needs is some direct honest talk from you. Once you have done this straight talk then you treat him like you do want him in your life and no one else. BUT, you need to expect him to start treating you well as well. I know that is hard, but often knowing that he is needed will help him rise up.

If you have done the time line, then I would suggest you offer to answer any questions he has asked but to do it in the manner I suggested. Why? Well it helps prevent him getting more information than he wants and the second and third part give him and you a better insight into what he is seeking besides just words and pure data. Often these questions are far deeper than "did you give him oral sex?" What he wants to know is how emotionally committed to him were you? Did you do things for him that you would not do for your H? Was he better than me, therefore you were willing to do more? How can I really match up to someone you risked so much for?

Did you get that out of "did you give him oral sex?" You need to consider that, which is why the how will this help you, do you really need this parts of the written questions are so important.

I hope this engenders a healthy discussion and enables you to put together a good plan. Our goal is not to confuse you but offer you as many options as possible accompanied by our reasoning so that you can make a better decision on how recover your marriage.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL