EXACTLY!

Now, I also asked the "big O" question. At the time, the idea was that, with a woman, it would only be possible if she was emotionally committed to the situation.

It's just not the truth. The truth is that there are several variations of orgasm, and in my pain and anger I chose to forget that most simply, orgasm can be achieved mechanically for women just as it can for men.

It's like implying rape isn't rape if a female victim orgasms. If she orgasms, well, she must have wanted it. Just due to the biological mechanisms for sex, orgasm happens.


Though, I may want to argue the second choice statement. It wasn't the OP taking the first choice, it was the WS. Self was the first choice - chasing that bubble world. Stuck in the snow-globe, and not wanting to let it go.

WPG, I have also kind of thought of an explanation for your SF frustrations.

Consider Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

If you click the link, and examine the image, here is what you will notice; that sex in and of itself is a basic physiological need, and that sexual intamacy is another - separate - need.

So, in the situation where he will go through when he initiates, he is meeting his basic physiological need, yet he is at this time not meeting the need for intimacy.

Why? Well, the way the hierarchy operates, is that - unless there is dysfunction - needs higher in the pyramid cannot be met until those lower in the pyramid are met.

Sexual intimacy is a Love and Belonging need, and below that is safety. Safety of; morality, family, health, property (among others).

He is stuck in the second tier right now. That means that meeting all basic needs above that tier is secondary until his feeling of safety is restored.

THAT is what the MB program is building into - that is what you are trying to achieve.

The A threatened his sense of safety, and now EVERYTHING above that in the hierarchy is compromised and secondary to restoring safety.

Exactly WHAT has been compromised? Morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts (self-actualization), self-esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by others (esteem), friendship, family, sexual intamacy (love and belonging), and the aforementioned safety needs.

Does it now make sense why an A is such a painful blow to our lives?

THIS is why the O&H need HAS to be met, before he can move forward, he NEEDS to address his basic need for safety before he is able to address ANY OTHER NEED.

The need for safety is met through EPs, NC, O&H, and UA. The feeling of "2nd choice" is a threat to that need that needs to be eradicated before the next tier can be rebuilt.

Thank you for that, JL. I have laid all this in his lap. I told him last night and again this morning that he is my choice. That I am the one who failed in all of this, but I need his help, because if he doesn't communicate his needs with me then I cannot successfully meet them.

HHH, the info on Maslow was very interesting as well. We actually teach this concept in our basic training classes as it relates to dealing with offenders.


I thought about this. Essentially I am a "booty call" for him, if he's not reaching any level of intimacy with me. On one level I am offended. On the other hand, I still can't get over feeling like I deserve to be treated like crap. Go figure.

I am not having a good day. It kills me that he refuses any kind of communication with me at all. I've got some medical issues going on and am scheduled for a test tomorrow (I threw up blood recently and am having an endoscopy tomorrow). I also contacted the polygraph examiner who'd been recommended to me today. I passed her info along to H so he could contact her and talk to her about the issues he needs to know. She can do the test this week. I want to do it and then I want to move forward. If a poly doesn't do it, then maybe this marriage is just not going to ever be reconciled and I just need to face that.

I'm sorry if my responses don't seem very well thought out or detailed today. I'm tired, I'm drained, and I am to the point that I think H just wants to be a roommate and will never let his guard down enough to even try to fall in love with me again.

Edited to add: Maybe the poly is what he needs to make him feel safe. I don't know anymore.

WPG,

Your husband is having a hard time believing that you had sex just twice with the OM.
Seeing you and OM were HS sweethearts, he lives 10 min away and you have a high libido..he questions that.
You have to agree it sounds hard to believe. Couple that with a FR where you were very convincing you were being genuine, the man's head is all over the place.
You may be tired and drained and that's understandable. You have been working real hard since the FR to be open and honest.

Imagine how he feels. His wife had an affair with an old HS boyfriend that lives not too far away. He's broken and doesn't know what to believe. I really hope the poly can help put some of this to rest. Good Luck.

exbf/OM lives ten minutes away?

Time to move far away. Put up the for sale sign and put a huge buffer zone between your BH and the OM. How can a BH feel safe in his own home when the OM can slip in at a momnents notice.

This BH does not have a home he can feel safe in.

10 minutes makes things to easy for an affair to restart.

WPG,

Or expose to OMW, perhaps THEY will then move.

As Patton said, the duty of a soldier is not to die for their country, but to get the enemy to die for their country.

OM4s place is on the way to work and every time I pass it I feel a small twinge of rage.

God Bless
Gamma

I know it sounds hard to believe that I had sexual intercourse with OM only 2 times. And it's pointless to defend myself on this forum. I've told him the truth and he chooses not to believe it. Even though he has told me before "I choose to believe you. I choose to forgive you." He doesn't and I understand why he doesn't. I sent his the info on the polygraph examiner I called and gave him her # as she said she would be glad to talk to him. I think at this point it doesn't matter if he says, "No, I don't need you to do it" - I think I need to do it anyway. And if the poly makes no difference, then like I said before, I don't think anything will.

I do not want to move. My parents live close by, I'm happy with the kids' school, our jobs are here. However, if he commits to recovery but says moving is the absolute only way that he'll continue this marriage, then I will move. I love him enough. I want him enough.

I don't give a rat's patootie where the OM lives now, there will be NO more contact and therefore no chance for this A to restart. If OM contacted me I'd immediately tell H and I'd consider slapping him with a restraining order to boot. The thought of OM - of being with OM - makes me sick. I'm ready for H to expose to OMW. I want this to get - if not behind us completely, then somehow woven into the background of our lives so that we can focus on rebuilding our marriage. I miss my DH.

I think, though, that the poly is going to be pretty much the last possible thing I can do to try and save this marriage. Obviously nothing else I have done up to this point has helped or worked. I destroyed everything. He hates me. I'll accept that. I won't fight him for the house or even child support. I won't even fight him on custody of the children if he believes I am an unfit mother after what I've done. I took enough from him and I won't take anything more.

Thanks, Gamma. I'm ready. DH is hesitating b/c she just had a baby, apparently. We have not discussed it (exposure or OMW having a baby), BTW, I learned this before I stopped reading his thread.

I still don't know how DH found out OMW was preggers or having a baby. When I said I had no more contact with OM, I meant it. I counted backwards on my fingers, though. OM would have had to have gotten his wife pregnant in January of this year. So basicially when all h3ll broke loose in my house, and H was contacting OM, and OM called me in January whining about "Please get your H to leave me alone," that he was probably frantically trying to get his wife preggers in the hopes that when the crap hit the fan at his house, she'd stay with him. What a miserable excuse for a human being. And now he's sitting there, probably pleased as punch, having gotten away with an A, thinking he's secured his wife's loyalty with a new baby. Yes, I want her to know. Regardless of how my marriage ends up, she deserves the truth about her POS "husband."

BTW, I emailed the info about the polygraph to DH earlier. I have not had a response yet. I think I am going to do it regardless of what he says - it would be better if he'd talk to the examiner and understand the scope of a poly first and write down exactly what issues he needs to know. The way she explained it to me, you can't ask about more than one "issue" per test - so if there are multiple issues, you would need more than one test. She recommended no more than 2 tests in one day. I think I can pretty much come up with the biggies that H is stuck on: the number of times I had sex with OM, did OM come to our home at all, did he go out of town with me to my work conference last fall, did we get together the weekend he took the girls to the beach. So if he will not give me an answer on the poly, I will find the money on my own and I will set it up based on those issues.

Will your BH come here to post?


Be careful how you approach this. If there is any sincerity to your words, then you should not fight BH but also don't walk away from your children either...that is plain messed up and not what most BSs want unless the WS continues to be wayward vs getting a grip. You can forgo alimony but to say you wouldn't even ask for child support is foolish too. Your kids should not be penalized or used as ping pong balls.

Many WSs make the mistake of thinking actions such as these are Just Compensation...and they can be to a degree but they can also be seen as a WS dumping everything on the BS who already has to deal with a number of emotions. So hold off on any big declarations.

"I know it sounds hard to believe that I had sexual intercourse with OM only 2 times. And it's pointless to defend myself on this forum."

It does not matter if we believe you or don't.

The point is many a WW, WH slid back into an affair because the OM lived and or worked close to the WS.

Even if it could be guaranteed that you will never break NC.

How is this going to guarantee that you, BH, your kids will never run into the OM when you live that close?

Many a BS find that having the OP live close by to be a constant threat to their marriage. Thus halting the recovery process.

Yes many people would lose money to sell their house now. Yes many people if they were to up and move may not be ale to find a good job in their new town.

However you do not want to move away from your family. Like the kids schools. You can give countless reasons why not to move.

The reason to move is security from having peace of mind.

You danced, now you complain that you have to pay the band by moving.

You may get away from moving but what have you done to isolate you and your family from the OM?

Move to next town over so you never have to pass OM�s to get to families homes. Change jobs to get you farther from OM.

Have you changed all phone no. for you, BH, kids, emails, new home without forwarding address so OM can�t know?

If you don't mind me asking;

What were your thoughts during the 5 months of FR?
I am not asking this to be facetious, you seem to be very remorseful at this point and doing all you can.

He does. He posts in SAA under broken2009.



No, I wouldn't walk away from my children. I couldn't do that. I have read posts on here from former BH's who get divorced and then get hosed in visitation. I couldn't do that to my H. He's am incredible father. And I wouldn't see a point in asking for child support. I make a decent salary - H and I make about the same, well, a little less for me now I quit the PT job, although I'd probably have to pick it back up if we end up getting a D - and with some downsizing in our lifestyle the kids and I would be fine. It would be great if he'd keep them on his insurance through work as it's better than mine, I think that would be more than enough. I'd never ask him for alimony. That would just be mean.


The EPs I put in place are a few pages back. Still have same cell phone #'s, although I offered to switch mine with DH's. DH has access to the phone, has my voice mail password (both to cell phone and my office phone at work). I had a cell phone for work which I turned in and no longer use as DH couldn't access it. He has all email passwords. My personal email is the same but OM's email address is blocked. My work email address is new (DH has access to that also as well as he can log into our timekeeping system online). No more social networking sites. No more part-time job at night. I currently work in a secure facility so it is not a place OM could freely walk into.



That's a fair question.

When DH first confronted me about the text messages between the OM and me, I lied and said we were friends. But I knew that the A would have to end. I think I thought I could be friends with OM at first. DH was of course suspicious and continued to snoop. He found evidence of chats online and emails, more and more evidence came out and it was pretty damning.

I remember the day he confronted me. We'd actually just gotten home from church. I can remember the clothes I had on. And quite simply, I panicked. I remember sitting in the living room and him staring at me, asking me did I sleep with OM. I remember blurting out "One time!" and he walked out, I followed, crying, begging, and I made the decision to go back on what I said. I told him no, I never slept with him. That yes, I went to his house and it came close, but that I left...blah blah. Just lies. I swore on my children's lives that I had not slept with OM. I believed that if he knew the truth about what I'd done, that he'd leave me. So I made the decision to lie that day in August and I stuck to it until January. I don't know how the wayward fog is for others, but for me that day in August I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I wanted my husband, not the OM.

And during that time I tried everything. I tried to be the best wife I could be. I had nothing else to do with OM. DH and I did Bible studies together. We prayed together. Yes, I sat there, praying with him, hearing the pain that was in his heart because he had so many doubts. And I kept lying to him. No, it wasn't easy and I know it was wrong. I was absolutely terrified that I would lose him. Part of me thought that if I could convince him that I'd only had an EA, that his pain would be less. That knowing the truth about what I'd done would hurt him too terribly and that I needed to protect him from that. Of course I know now how wrong I was...I lied because I was a coward. How long could I have kept it up? Could I have gone to my grave with it? I honestly don't know. There were many times I felt the urge to just tell him, just get it over with, but I never did. I let myself keep right on lying.

Also, shaken, our M pre-A, while not horrible, was not the kind of M it should have been. We related more like roommates than anything - did a terrible job of meeting each others' needs. For a long time I had felt alone and rejected by my H, but I did not do a good job of communicating to him that my needs weren't being met. During the FR, I had the husband I had always wanted DH to be. No, not the pain that he felt - besides that. He was romantic, he was sexually interested in me, he was affectionate and attentive, he sent me affectionate emails and texts almost every day ("Good morning, beautiful..." - he used to call me "beautiful" when we were dating and I hadn't heard it in years). We went on dates, we did fun things together, we cuddled on the couch and we had real conversations. We became very sexually adventurous and did things together we'd never done before - things I'd never done with anyone else or ever thought I'd want to do. He would hold me as we fell asleep each night and I felt so safe and so happy...I am ashamed to say that I wanted this to last forever and I thought I had to lie to keep it going.

What it all boils down to is that I was selfish. And now he sees the FR as an even worse betrayal, because he opened up to me in a way he never had before. And all the "happiness" I thought I had was based on a lie. Now he sees me as not only unfaithful, but manipulative and cruel. It doesn't matter what my supposed "reasons" were for lying during the FR. It's a shame I feel like I've learned a lot about how to have a good - no, a great - marriage and I've learned it all probably too late.

Thank you for answering my question.

The real truth came out in Jan right?

Did your BH keep asking you for the truth based on information he found investigating?

WPG, it seems you and my FWW have similar tastes in scum.

Though, hers wasn't an old HS BF.

A question; do you often or ever tell your BH that "just want to move forward" line?

I got it a lot. I requested to stop hearing it. It's just a candy-coated "just get over it" to my ears. Don't talk moving forward, act moving forward.

I know you are, but your word with him is pretty... bleh, right now.

A lot doesn't get through, and a lot that does get through gets improperly redirected.

I'm just relating my own experience here, and I'm in deep to integrating MB.

yes - the real truth came out in January - that was DDay #2 for us.

H did keep snooping - found more information. He couldn't get over his doubts. Confronted me and I finally broke down. The day he confronted me, I admitted to having sex with OM once. That was the night he packed a bag, flew into a rage, and left the house. The next day he came back home and we sat down and talked. I finally told him I'd had sex with OM twice, which is the truth. He was very calm and patient, total change from the night before. He heard me out, looked me full in the face, and said "I forgive you."

Since then we've been through several talks where we've walked through what happened, to where he has the dates now for each time I saw OM, places, and the dates and places we had sex. He asked about some details but not all, as I have mentioned in earlier posts. He recovered so much information (he's super good with computers, and we WS's are not very good at covering our tracks) that he had a LOT to dwell on and develop doubts. Yes, a lot of the chats that OM and I had were sexual in nature. Thinking back on what was said between OM and me, coupled with the fact that I lied for so long, makes it difficult for him to believe that there were only 2 sexual encounters. Yes, the OM lives in the next town over, so agreed, there was proximity there which again calls what I say into question. DH said when he confronted OM, that OM told him he had been to our home. Now, when I talked to OM the day he called me in January, I asked OM that question, and he denied he had said anything of the sort. DH also said that when he confronted OM, he told him he was parked a mile down the road from his house and was on his way over there unless OM told DH the truth. OM said (in January) that DH told him he was not out for revenge, that he was a "good Christian man," just wanted the truth, etc. So, obviously, someone is lying about what happened when this particular confrontation occurred, and I believe it is OM. I told DH that he could ask OM to give details of our house, that anyone who had been here would be able to describe it (dumb idea, as why would OM tell the truth anyway).

DH has also saved copies of pretty much all the evidence and I know at one point he was reviewing it frequently. He had copies at work, which he told me he destroyed, and copies at home...we supposedly burned all of it together earlier this year, but then in June he emails me copies of a chat and email exchange between me and OM he had saved.

Anyway, in February of this year he was telling me he believed me and forgave me. I was just going back through my old emails from DH since the truth came out...not a good thing for me to do as I can see it's been months since he told me he loved me. I have an email from DH from last February that says, "I love you. Will you run away with me?" It makes me cry. Since then, the "I believe you/I forgive you" and even the "I love you" emails have stopped.

I deleted all the emails and texts DH and I sent each other during the FR. I did it in a fit of anger at myself because it was all based on lies.

Wulff,

Just thinking, but I wonder if your H saw what you said, if it might make things clearer for him. You said

I don't know if he will believe it, but if this is really the truth and it is how you feel/felt I think needs to see this in writing. What "turned you on" the most? I'm betting his opening up to you was #1, he shared himself with you didn't he? #2 were the terms of endearment right? #3 Were the "real converstations", right? And yes "sexually adventurous" was also something that ignited your fire, right? All of this occured AFTER your affair or when it was really winding down.

What does it suggest to you? My guess you fell back inlove with your H. So how did OM compare to your H during the FR?

Please think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

Scum is right. OM is scum. I think sometimes DH thinks that if our M ends, I'll be running back to OM. No. I have boundaries now. I know who I am, and I know who I want. Scum ain't it.



I try not to - because I think it is contrary to what Dr. H says about "Just Compensation." You can't just "move forward" and "get over it." I focus on telling him that I am not giving up on him or our marriage - that he is worth everything to me. That I want to be the source of his greatest happiness, not his pain. That I want to be an expert in meeting his needs. I try to focus on having a romantic and fulfilling marriage. I tell him that I have made my choice, and it is HIM, it is our marriage. But lately I've been trying to also tell him more that I need his help to do that - I need his feedback and so forth. I haven't begun to even address getting my needs met right now. I'm just kind of sucking it up and smacking my Taker in the head every so often to get it to shut up.

The overall similarities between M stories here is downright frightening. I think this is what has drawn me to you and BH's recovery. I try to pass on what little I have to him, because I KNOW where he is.

And what you have to say is enlightening to me due to the echoes of my own FWW.

Hearing her words echoed by another soul helps, because... well, frankly her word is dirt, even when I DON'T want it to be so.

Bah. I'm trying to finish Nursing school and recover my marriage at the same time. What a croc.

Remember you can't do that forever. When your Taker starts rearing its ugly head as you try to Plan A your spouse back into the marriage, you need to pay attention to at least what it's asking for. Don't demand it out of your husband, but see if you can brainstorm a way to satisfy your Taker's needs, too.

I've hesitated to mention this in your thread because I don't want to derail it, but often if a betrayed spouse experiences Contrast Effect, their wayward spouse looks even worse. Is it possible that he is experiencing this contrast effect in some fashion? A sympathetic female ear at work? Masturbation to pornography? A female recreational companion?

Don't accuse, don't demand, but keep your eyes and ears open for the signs of contrast effect at work. Contrast Effect withdraws Love Units from your account without your knowledge; that's why it's so insidious. It's what happened to your husband during your affair.

My stepbrother took his own life three weeks ago. At the heart of his misery was his response to his wife's disclosure of an affair: he intensified his relationship with other women in his life, one responded sympathetically to his plight, and suddenly a marriage that looked salvageable went downhill fast. He concealed this relationship from everyone, and only unveiled her to family and friends a week after he delivered divorce papers to his spouse and moved out.

Contrast Effect can be at play even if he's not aware of it. Watch his behavior closely, but only for your own edification, not as a source of conflict in your relationship.

Double post to highlight echoes.

I have heard all this. It's not meaningless, but it's got a lot of defensive posture to get through. I need to hear it, even when nothing in me will allow me to believe it.

Make sense?

OK - lots to respond to so I am going to make a couple different posts!


JL, as usual you are dead-on. During our M, my H always had this wall up around him. He was just not a very open person, even with me - I remember sometimes how out of the blue he'd say something and it would suprise me, because I'd never known that about him before. During the FR, my top needs were being met (hadn't taken the EN questionnaire, since I had yet to find MB, but looking back now I can see it). Affection, admiration, conversation, SF...he was hitting all the biggies for me and doing it well. So well that yes, I'd definitely say that I fell back in love with my DH. What I'd gotten from OM could not even begin to compare with what I had with DH. He'd started the process - really his Plan A, without knowing it - before he discovered the text messages (or at least before he confronted me). We'd had a huge fight not long after I'd had sex with OM the second time and the next day DH sends me this email, how he didn't know what he'd done to hurt me so badly, and I did see a difference beginning in him. It wasn't quite up to the intensity it became during the FR, but it was enough to start breaking through the fog I was in. I remember that at the time I was simply confused, because I'd tried to convince myself that DH didn't care about me yet here he was showing me that he did.

I should show you the 20-page "novel" I wrote DH - he had asked me for details and so I started writing. For me, I wrote about who I was - how I'd gotten to this point, I wrote about not only my relationship with OM back in HS but other men I'd been with before DH, men who had used me physically and tossed me aside. I came to equate sex with love in a lot of ways. I was very needy and wanted attention and affection, and would let guys treat me like crap in order to get it (or a semblance of it). I wrote about how I felt about DH in our marriage, the little hurts that I kept from him and how I allowed the seed of resentment to grow inside me. How I felt when I saw OM again for the first time in years, how it made me feel when he pursued me. I did give him the details of the encounters I had with OM but it wasn't enough detail for H - I had the location of one restaurant correct but got the name wrong, so he Googled it and said there wasn't one of those restaurants there, for example. I wrote about how I felt during the FR and why I felt the need to lie - so he's heard it before. I was hurt by his response to the letter ("I was expecting more") and I ended up taking it and throwing it in the driveway and burning it. The next thing I did was the timeline - bare bones, dates from my calendar, lunch here, lunch there, when I went to his house, etc. That was more in line with what he'd requested. Later on we did the timeline with the credit card statements, cell phone log, and so on.

So yes, I'd agree that I fell back in love with DH. In fact, I'm so incredibly in love with DH now that I'm in even more pain, if that makes sense. I've done a pretty good job of protecting my LB$ that he had built up but it is still taking some pretty deep hits. If I wasn't in love with him anymore, I wouldn't keep trying.

I don't know if him seeing this again would help. I just approached him and asked if he'd gotten the info I'd sent him today on the polygraph and asked if we had the money. He said no, but then clarified that we wouldn't until we got paid again. I asked him if it was something he wanted me to continue to look into, and he asked me why, and I said so he could believe that I was telling him the truth. He said "Do you think it will help?" and I said only he could decide that, that I am not sure what is going to help. He changed the subject and walked away from the conversation.