Flamed out last night. Flamed out HARD.

Just went off.

Every time I was met with an excuse or justification, I smashed it.

It is the first time since this all began that I actually spoke my full mind, and exactly how I felt.

It didn't feel good at all. I partially destroyed FWW. And then in the morning, she THANKS me?

The sad thing is, some of those delusions protected me a bit, too.

Now there are no delusions left. Every step and every action she took had no other outcome that what they lead to, and she was fully aware of it each step of the way.

It was her decision to make sure that every break and lunch every day she worked with him was spent with him.

It was her decision to text him outside of work (more so; she was the major initiator - she tried to excuse that he answered, but she initiated and carried on when he did). It was her decision to do this KNOWING that I would in no way be OK with it, and she knew that I wouldn't.

It was her decision to give him every opportunity to try to get physical, and when he didn't get far enough for her liking, she pushed back to make it get physical.

It was her decision to give him ample time, place, and opportunity for sex, and it was her decision to have sex with him, and to repeat it again and again. She made an effort to create the time and opportunity.

It was her decision to chase the attention of another man, rather than to work with her H on her marriage at all.

It was her decision to ignore me over and over and over over the years when I tried to communicate that my needs were not being met.


Yet, it is MY decision to give her another shot. It is MY decision to let her meet my needs, and to try to meet hers the best I can.

Bad to worse.

Nuked again. Two days in a row. Yeah, I'm good now, but at what cost? FWW has finally seen the anger and resentment that boils beneath the surface. I'm not proud of myself for letting it out.

Yet, I can still see something positive. How sad. I gained some admiration for her. I told her this morning how I admired that she could face me.

My "rage" is either the same as most people, or nothing like it. I don't know. To this day I have never called her any names. It's not just that I believe there is no use, it's just that the thought in and of itself of her fitting any filthy description has never crossed my mind or heart. I don't yell, I do curse. And she told me that the one thing that frightened her was that I was very cold, something she has never seen me be.

I hate these episodes...

@HeadHeldHigh,

Some Love Busting is to be expected in recovery. You want to do the best you can to eliminate it.

Most people feel better after they get angry. In fact, Dr. Harley just addressed this in his radio show Monday. We believe anger is therapeutic because we just feel so much better after we vent.

However, it's much better to retrain your brain to simply not get angry. Dr. Harley stated that this was his goal, and that it takes a great deal to make him angry now. When presented with a conflict, he's trained his brain to think through solutions to the conflict, and anger no longer enters the picture.

So while you can expect some anger as part of the bumps & bruises of recovery, do your best to learn to restrain it and learn to express your feelings without angry outbursts. Particularly, as males, we tend to be larger and stronger than females, and unrestrained anger can extract a terrible toll if we don't watch our actions very closely.

With 11" of height, and 100lbs on my wife, I am hyper-aware of the issue of physical manifestation of anger. I'm not a physically aggressive person in any form or manner... well, unless I could get my hands on OM. Otherwise, I'm more prone to approach things with humor or whatever.

I went through anger management at a pretty young age due to my temper.

And then, there is the issue of catharsis. Though I do feel some sort of catharsis when I let it out, I can't help but to fear I am only sustaining the negative within myself.

I'm really battling as to how to work this out. It's kind of hard when she picks up on it and works me until I give in and let it out.

You have entered Plan FU. This is not approved by MB, but it is *sometimes* effective when nothing else is.

However - you can't stay there for long. Not if you want to keep your marriage. What you need now are good strong boundaries *for yourself* that will keep you out of both the fog of Plan A and the destruction of Plan FU.

Here is the Boundaries post, in case you have not seen it:


A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

Now I need to rework that to apply to me somehow.

As far as I know; she hasn't lied to me since full disclosure. There has been no direct contact w/ the OM since February 13, 2010 - when he moved out of state.

FWW is working overtime to make just compensation. I'm just trying to battle my recovery cycle.

So... I am having a hard time applying that to myself with the examples provided.

Consider taking her at her word � she really is grateful to see your anger.

Helen Fischer wrote something to the effect that one impediment to recovering or creating intimacy in a marriage post infidelity is the WS�s existential fear of the BS�s rage that on an existential level seeks to annihilate the WS�s self. I have searched in vain for where I read that or I would give you the link. I can testify to the truth of the statement.

Manifesting your rage takes it out of that existential/annihilation category and quantifies it for her. Fear of the unknown is more paralyzing and corrosive than fear of the known.


This is SO HUGE. If you have ever laid a hand on your wife or children in anger, used your physical strength to overpower her or blocked her exit from the room, she will be very tuned into this.

When your rage takes over, make sure you don�t come close to invading her physical space or make any sudden gestures. Make sure she has a clean exit out of the room without having to come too close to you.

HHH, I�m not suggesting you do any of that stuff, so please don�t feel like you need to respond or defend. Sometimes I post stuff to anyone who might read the thread. DNM�s post is the first one I have seen that touches on this very real issue so I wanted to expand.

The toll is, indeed, terrible.

Consider adopting a code word between the two of you and a code word you give yourself when you feel the anger mounting, which means stop, walk away, no matter what, a waiting period, and a plan for how you will re-engage.


And stop over-noodling the blowing up thing. You have had by my count three WW�s, four including yours, telling you that it is preferable to see it as we know it�s there.

No prob, Seeking.

I have really started keeping my thread and my journey alive for the benefit of others, not for myself. There is times where it is helpful to me, but as I ventured out and tried to support others, I wanted to make sure that I have something that shows that I am no angel of a BS.

I experience the same pain, loss, anger, fear, hopelessness, helplessness, anxiety, depression, and a spectrum of other "low" feelings that a lot of other BSs do. If I wish to be truly supporting of others, I feel it important that I be viewed as I really am; broken and confused, but trying to put it together, pick up the pieces, and move forward - even if I can't see the way.

But, yeah. I am not a violent person, and when I say "rage" the image that it conjures for some is probably far more frightening than what I actually do. In my 2 day nuke, I never raised my voice, sparsely cursed, and didn't call her any filthy names. What I said was; cold, calculated, painful. In 14 years together, and 11 years of marriage, none of that was ever my way.

I refuse to be mentally or emotionally abusive, and that is how this made me feel, that I was.

I would never raise a hand to my FWW, nor my children (in an abusive manner - I am not averse to a bottom swat), nor anyone else save for defense of my life, or the lives of my family. I'm a weenie, anyway. Don't like getting hit.

I would never block an exit for my wife to walk away, and the few times she has angered me to a point where I had to leave, she has never blocked me.

In those times, I left not because I feared I would be violent, but I feared cursing or raising my voice. I would leave until I could be composed and approach the issue calmly (though probably not fairly).

I refuse to disrespect my wife. She doesn't deserve that.

I'm really just focusing on how and when to get rid of these feelings before they become insurmountably built, and I begin to shut down to avoid them - at which point, I still lose, because she will not allow me to shut down.

Nothing to report but a solid few days.

Carved pumpkins with the kids Wednesday, she made Halloween cookies with the kids while I did homework yesterday.

No real bubbling right now, just the "normal" images flashing that I have to fight, and of course they come at the most inopportune time.

I kind of fight doubly. Sometimes I react physically to a flash, a twitch, a breath... and she wants to dig. I don't want to really tell her exactly what went through my head - but I don't quite know how to react when she catches it and starts asking.

She even has a habit of keeping to it, knowing that even if I lie to brush her off, I will only lie for so long. In fact, the usual break is she will just ask if I'm lying, and I confess...



I can't break her down again. I can't lose to this...

Meh. Right now, there is no "this," I'm actually in a good mood. Gonna go bring her some flowers at work before I head to school.

HHH, for the record , the night I explained to my H that my fear about him bringing up the A was making it hard to stay in the same room with him sometimes, he asked me to please, please stop posting my story here. He voluntarily closed the door on the subject � �is that why you have been acting so weird?�

He doesn�t think I�m foggy or lack humility or remorse � he laughed out loud at the last one.

He is managing his anger, fear and pain for our marriage � not for me � for our marriage.

Closing the door has freed us up to talk about some of the issues, but we do so without reference to the A or any details. When his anger makes no sense in the context, I�m quick to say �remember, it�s me you are mad at.� When he does something I find demeaning, I feel it is safe to bring it up. When I do something that makes him feel unsafe, he says so. I try to be all over that, but sometimes I miss stuff.

I have enormous respect for how he has handled this the last couple of months.

He says "have you been reading on that site again? I can tell when you get all weird and go doormat on me. I'm begging you honey -- stop.� He doesn't even like me reading here.

I think he�s right.

Awesome. Bringing up the affair is one of Dr. Harley's "enemies of good conversation", that make conversation extremely unpleasant and prohibits intimate conversation. Good on you for having that difficult conversation, reaching an agreement not to discuss it anymore, and moving forward to greater intimacy!


Well, if he's not enthusiastic about your participation here... you know the rule. We'll miss you. All the best!

PoJA, PoRH, PoUA - good stuff. All this should lead to exactly where you are. My experience with my FWW is different, and guided by the same policies. My boundaries are set for each step of recovery, as are my expectations. She has met every one, and as of yet has not directly opposed or objected, and I make it perfectly clear that I am willing to adapt if she does object.

We have been able to thoroughly and repeatedly discuss the A because each conversation has been increased in interval, and has been focused on not the gory details, but feelings and conditions which facilitated the events. This has been a process which has not only aided in healing, but has allowed further development of EP's, boundaries, and an opposite sex avoidance plan.

It's not perfect, however. I think that is something in myself. FWW enthusiastically agrees that she needs very strict and rigid boundaries - yet doesn't feel that I need the same boundaries. I think I am going to keep myself to the same standards whether she sees it as necessary or not, as not doing so makes me feel like a hypocrite. I also see it as a reciprocated respect issue.

Update:

Things are doing pretty well. Started circling the drain this weekend due to not meeting UA time - got lost in the mix of Halloween, the kids, work etc.

This time, however I caught on early and communicated it. So, the downward spiral was circumvented before I sunk and/or bombed.

We did have a discussion about intimacy and SF. This is an unfortunate positive of the A. Prior to the A, FWW did not bring intimacy to the table with SF. She applied it to Affection and conversation, but was unconsciously removing it from SF - during our whole marriage. It was like an after-thought omission. It lead to "something missing" in the A situation.

I guess I win. SF is COMPLETELY different ever since the A - even before MB-based recovery.

I hate it, but I finally have what I felt was missing for all that time - and just could not get across to her.

My wife has expressed the same sentiment about me helping out with more chores around the house and paying attention when she's talking.

Posted this elsewhere, reposting in my own thread for conservation purposes.

For context; this was after ILYBINILWY on February 6th, 2010 - but pre snooping, and discovery of A activity 2-2 1/2 weeks later.

Had I been given full context for ILYBINILWY, this letter would not exist.

I almost started a bad situation.

I think it's time to merge FWW and I's FB accounts.

A day or two ago, I got an add from an "old friend." And not the good kind, either.

It was that "one friend" some people have had, where there was some kind of romance or whatever that never quite stuck. When I was dating my wife, and after she got pregnant, this friend backed off. I talked to her a few times, and supported her through a crisis at the time, but she kept her distance.

The last time she had any type of contact, she came and visited my W and saw my oldest D when she was a few weeks old.

She kept out of contact from then on... until FB.

I didn't think about it when I clicked accept, but it stewed. I sent her a message stating that out of respect to my marriage, I just could not be in contact with her, and deleted her.

I think my FB account has to go as well. I just can't have these inroads available. I now have to keep more stringent boundaries than I ever have in the past because the betrayal has left me far too vulnerable to temptations that simply did not exist before.

W called while I was posting, explained to her the situation.

She may not have considered this a "threat." At one time, I might not have, either. Now I do. I am too damaged to take any risk like this.

Ok, so we talked a little more, FWW stated "If there is ANYONE I would consider a threat, it's her."

My earlier assumption, I know now, comes from fogbabble when I was pushing for... well... something resembling NC. OM was a few weeks from leaving the state, and I wanted contact to be as limited as humanly possible until then.

Part of me wishes I had went Hiroshima and just exposed it right then and there to kill it at the root...


Rough day, right under the surface. No discernible reason. The thread I hold on to is myself. If worst comes to worst, I'll be alright.





I wish I was free of this!

I see her in my dreams!
Wish that she wasn�t there
But she still haunts me and I
Still feel her breath on me!
Still want to taste her skin!
But I know that would kill me

No damn her! still I choke on her lies!
Still Reeling from her last caress her goodbye!

Oh how this sickens me!
This wretched fools affair
I can't erase this from me

And now it permeates
And every thought I feel
The anger writhes in my soul

No damn her, still I feel my stomach turn
Choke back hold my head high I'm strong

No damn her, still I choke on her lies
Not reeling I'm strong

It's really descending on me today. Can't really nail down any contributing factors. UA time has been good - EN's.... pretty well met.

Just gonna take it as part of the cycle I suppose. Hoping UA time today will crush it. Don't know.



Too late, this is not the answer
I need to pack it in
I can't pull your heart together,
With just my voice alone.

A thousand shards of glass,
I came to meet you and,
And you cut the piece out of me.

And as you ripped it all apart
That's when I turned to watch you.
And as the light in you went dark
I saw you turn to shadow

If you would salvage some part of you
That once knew love
But I'm losing this
And I'm losing you

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

It's too late now
To stop the process
This was your choice
You let it in
This double life you lead
Is eating you up from within
A thousand shards of glass
You pushed beneath my skin
Left me lying there to bleed

And as you showed me your scars I only held you closer
But as the light in you went dark
I saw you turn over
I wanted always to be there for you and close to you
But I'm losing this
And I'm losing you

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me
The broken pieces
I hold these pieces

Maybe without me you'll return
To all the beauty I once knew
But if I stay I know
We will both be drowned by your holding onto me

Oh, I've gotta turn and run
From faces that you've never seen
Oh I've gotta save my blood
From all that you've broken
I hold these pieces of me

The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me
The broken pieces
I hold these pieces of me

'K?