Thanks guys. I know it's a start that he talks at all. And truthfully I don't want to talk about the "problems," I just want to TALK. To connect. Right now my needs aren't being met, I am hopeful he'll get there...when I bring things up (last night I tried "I'd love it if we could cuddle" while we were in bed) my requests are ignored. And right now I'm just letting them drop.

It was ironic today that our church sermon was on hypocrites. Specifically the story of Annanias and Sapphira from Acts Chapter 5. How they lied before men and before God. A sermon I needed before the A started. Or at least when I was trickle truthing DH. I tried to keep my mind from making DJ's today but I couldn't help but think that DH probably sees me as a hypocrite, probably wished God had meted out judgement on me as he did Annanias and Sapphiria...but I kept my thoughts to myself. And I admit that I was a hypocrite. The preacher said Jesus described hypocrites as a cup that is clean on the outside, but dirty on the inside. And that's how I was - during the A but also when I trickle-truthed DH. In fact, my hypocrisy was WORSE in my eyes while I was trickle-truthing him. And I NEVER want to be that way again. Outward appearances can mask a multitude of evil things. I don't want that to be me.

What's funny is that I've been told multiple times by people I've worked with over the years that I don't have a poker face - that you can clearly see what I am thinking just by looking at me. When I was in college and interning with a police dept, I went to court one day and sat in the gallery with one of the officers. A man was defending himself against a speeding ticket. The court bailiff came up to me afterwards and said, "Hon, if you want to make it in this line of work, you gotta work on developing a poker face." Apparently I had the bailiff about cracking up over the look on my face while this guy was trying to defend himself (cross-examining a state trooper, of all things).

Anyway just babbling. On Harmony's recommendation, I did some research on 5-HTP and bought some tonight, so I'm trying that now instead of St John's Wort (I checked, and had been taking SJW since Aug. 23 so seems like I would have seen some effects if it was going to help). If the 5-HTP doesn't help, I'll try SAM-e, then may have to bite the bullet and go to the doc's.

Got the pumpkins carved today (and had to rescue them from being carried off by ants, ugh). Didn't make it shoe shopping or work out, but I got a nap in. H worked on his car most of the afternoon.

DNM, I also bought a journal today - I think it will help while I'm doing this online course too. The first "dare" is to write my expectations - 3 for me and 3 for DH - and seal them in an envelope and put them in a safe place till the end of the course. Onward and upward!

This used to be said with much more frequency in the past: skip the relationship talk.

Good that you recognize that having a pleasant conversation will be more beneficial for recovery. This is why once all the questions after D day have been answered it's best to limit affair discussions to once a week if there is still a need to discuss an affair related issue.

Can't build anything if one keeps undoing what they do on a daily basis.

It sounds like you are putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward every day. Good for you for going to church even though you felt like going nowhere. I wish I had done a better job with that at times.

Hi all - another day...I am trying to keep putting one foot in front of the other, luri, it just feels like I'm slogging through waist-deep mud some days.

I'm doing my best to protect DH's LB$ but am not doing so well. Again I asked him yesterday for his help in our recovery. H refuses to tell me goodnight, refuses to tell me goodbye in the mornings. This morning he didn't want to get out of bed, his alarm kept going off. I went for my run and came back and he's still asleep. I tried to wake him up by kissing him, and it was like kissing a stone. He was totally unresponsive. He avoids touching me even by accident. And stating the obvious, we haven't had SF in over a week, since I initiated and he didn't refuse...but yet I find out he didn't want to, he just went along with it.

This hurts. It sucks. I am committed to continuing in Plan A, but his continued refusal to even try to meet my most important EN's is wearing on me. I don't understand what he wants, why he's staying, if he's not interested in rebuilding and recovering our M. I'm to the point I feel like I am living with someone who hates me, who will always hate me, and I need to decide whether or not I am going to live with it for the rest of my life. I know that's a DJ on my part as I don't know how he feels...

my boss keeps calling me, she's driving me insane. gotta go for now.

Classic sign of male depression. Suggested book: "I don't want to talk about it". You helped put him there, but it's not exclusively your fault.

Like I said earlier, you should do your best to meet his ENs, but in order to avoid depression & withdrawal yourself, keep working on improving yourself regardless of his reciprocation or lack thereof. It's your best bet to keep holding up: focus on how you can be a better person. Whether you end up staying married or divorced, you'll be better off for it.

EDIT to say: When you feel as if your needs are not being met, that's the time you're most likely to have another affair. It is at this point, during the long-haul to prove yourself to your husband after your previous infidelity and lack of trustworthiness, that you must stick as close as possible to your Extraordinary Precautions. Do not allow any other man to deposit Love Units, lest that cause your husband's Love Bank balance in your heart to drop even lower without his having done anything.

Yeah, it makes me very concerned that his AD's are not effective, that maybe he needs to up his dose. I have no idea when or if he's got a doc's appt. scheduled. I am afraid to bring it up to him for exactly what you mentioned, DNM - that I helped put him there, and that's exactly what he'll say to me...even though I am doing everything in my power to help him crawl out of that pit.

I'm sick of falling into the pit. DJ coming...at this point I feel that he is not with me because he wants a passionate, romatic marriage, but is with me for other reasons - the kids, my paycheck, clean laundry, I dunno...and since I am not allowed to fulfill any of his intimate ENs, I can only try to fulfill those that do not require intimacy - like DS, AS, FC, FS. Occasional C. I will take the poly to try to meet O&H. I am considering the post-nup, although the first laywer I was referred to as "good" doesn't do free initial consultations and money is tight at the moment. I'll continue meeting the needs I am allowed to meet as best as I can, try to include as much affection and admiration that I can, and avoid LBs, but aside from working on myself, maybe I need to be working on an exit strategy as well.

I will stick to my EPs. I would rather be dunked in hot oil than to travel the road of another A. I will not allow anyone else to make deposits in my LB$. I would rather go without having my needs met than to hurt DH like that again and destroy myself in the process. The A and the fallout almost destroyed me and I will not let that happen again. I'm at the point I don't want to be around the guys here at the office, rarely engage in conversation with them and certainly not intimate conversation. To be honest I'd much rather everyone here at work would just leave me alone. I could care less about work right now. I want my marriage. I can find another job. Just funny that I loved this job when I started working here and now I don't care.

I'm going to concentrate on the Respect Dare course I'm in. I'm considering picking up some PT work teaching online classes, which I can do from home. I failed to successfully train to run my half marathon in November, so I am going to train for another one in April. I want to drop another 10-15 pounds. I want to get DD#1 enrolled in gymnastics and I want to take krav maga. Maybe I need to make my "bucket list."

Get this - totally unrelated but just funny stuff from day-to-day life - I get sucked into a meeting this morning and the security officer comes to get my boss from the meeting. We hear them talking in the hall, and apparently there's a sewer problem and none of the bathrooms are working. We can't use the bathrooms at all!!! Shouldn't that be cause to just shut down and go home??? So we have "permission" to take breaks to ride to the store up on the corner to use the bathroom. I guess on the bright side that means we get to leave work...heck, I am headed to the house for lunch!

OK, DNM, I read your post on looking4's thread:


I realize it is a DJ for me to say about DH, but I wonder...could it be his principles are more important than my feelings? I don't think it's too far-fetched as he has told me before that he swore he'd never have the kind of M his parents had, he'd never put the kids through that, that unfaithfulness was pretty much the worst of the worst, the worst thing anybody could do to someone they claimed to love.

D*mmit. Why did I have to do it??? Don't answer. I know why I did it. Just doesn't make it any better or make any sense. I 2X4 myself on a regular basis.

There is a huge amount of "I" focus in most of your posts. Rarely is there much empathy or sympathy for your BH and what he is going through, but rather there is a consistent sense of "why doesn't he just get over it already?" You know--get with the MB program, up his meds, tell you how nice you look and quit moping about in bed.

I think that if you keep on this way, thinking only of what you need and want, your husband is going to a) remain with you in a state of despair, knowing you do not care about him or his pain and divorce you ten years from now, or b) bite the bullet and get a divorce now. Thus his depression--it's a lose/lose situation.

It is not an unusual thing for humans to be "me" centered--it's what many of us spend most of our lives trying to overcome. But if you want to stay in a marriage to ANYONE--this man or any subsequent husbands, you must learn how to change this focus.

Do you want to stay married to this man? Back off on trying to "make" him do anything. Get the polygraph, get the postnuptial (work overtime or get a second job), gently hold his hand when he lies in bed in despair and let him set the pace of recovery. What he is doing is not due to a deficit in his character. It is due to a deficit in YOURS.

This.


My DW does this when I spin out.

She will pick at me a bit; "What's wrong (ugh)," "What can I do?," "What do you need from me."

I don't often answer when I'm at my worst.

Oh, I have an answer, but it's neither anything constructive, nor is it anything she would like to hear at any time, more so when she's viewing the destruction her choices has caused.

So, she doesn't usually keep on pressing, but just lays there and either holds my hand, or gently caresses my back, or plays with my ears (her obsession, not mine!).

Then she repeats reassuring things, like she's not going anywhere, and she'll spend the rest of her life making up her single largest mistake and regret.

As I type, I almost eye roll. In those moments, I do. I don't know how or when, but it sinks in. Sometimes, even if it's insidious; whole life? Ah, I'll give you that chance!


At least 2 hours per day, WPG. At least. Minimum. No less.

If I be a positive example to you, then know this; I found out yesterday that just 1 day without that minimum 2 hours can knock me right off the pedestal. That is how fragile a state I am in. That is how fragile he is.

So I am not supposed to be working on making myself a better person and a better wife to DH? Fixing what was the defect in my character that caused me to have an A? I know I have a defect in my character. I'm committed to fixing it, with or without DH. I am a work in progress, but I also know that I am not the woman I was a year ago, or two years ago. I also know that HE doesn't have a defect in his character. He'd never in a million years do what I did. He's honest and loyal and strong, physically and emotionally. I am just worried about him. I worry about his health. I want him to recover - I want to HELP him to recover.

But I can't reconcile this M without his help. That's what I am asking for. He's withdrawn from me and I don't get the feedback I need to know what - if anything - I am doing to help. We seem stuck, and DH just seems to be numb and I am struggling to reach him.

I DO have empathy for him, for what he is going through. He's devastated and my A did that to him. The trickle truth I put him through did that to him. I am trying to be supportive and encouraging, sending him emails, writing notes, doing things to try to meet affection and admiration, which are the only 2 intimate ENs I can try to meet without his participation. I've had 2 sessions with Dr. Chalmers to try and figure out how I can meet his needs, avoid LBs, and introduce MB to him without him feeling like I am making a DJ.

I don't expect him just to "get over it." I've never said that to anyone, least of all to him. But I also believe that the best way for us to heal is to rebuild our marriage, following Dr. H's principles in his program. Counseling didn't do it for us. I know he's hurting but right now he's LB'ing left and right and I'm desperately trying to keep my head above water. I know that I caused this train wreck but I have been carrying the weight of recovery for some time - no, I didn't do it right to start with, by any means, but I am trying to do it right now.

If my M to my DH doesn't work, there won't BE any subsequent husbands. He's who I want, no one else. I'll be his wife for the rest of my life, whether he wants me to or not.


I do this too. I curl up in bed with him even when he's sleeping just to be close to him...to smell his skin...and I like my DH's ears too! He rarely answers me either. I honestly don't care if his answers weren't constructive - I just want answers! I just want to connect - somehow, some way.


DH is my one and only choice. I'll say it until I am blue in the face. But I need his help to help me heal too. My faith in God is shaky at best - God's forgiveness maybe SHOULD be enough for me, if I am a good Christian, but I want DH's too.




I wish he wanted to spend UA time with me. Everything I've read says MB won't work without it. We simply don't have it. Not by my choice. I'd rather spend time with him than anyone else, than doing anything else.

"There is a huge amount of "I" focus in most of your posts. Rarely is there much empathy or sympathy for your BH and what he is going through, but rather there is a consistent sense of "why doesn't he just get over it already?" You know--get with the MB program, up his meds, tell you how nice you look and quit moping about in bed."


Perhaps you are right; however, what I am hearing is someone whose love bank is draining rapidly and is trying so hard to keep it filled.

WPG, Maybe you need a break, not a plan B and not to cease meeting his needs entirely, just try to stop looking so hard for reciprocation. Pick a timeframe and stick to it...kinda like a diet or college course. Sometimes, if we know there is an end in sight, we can do amazing things. That is why plan A is to be time limited.

If you continue to think you will have to live like this forever then your LB will drain and you will be left with nothing to give.

Pick a date, don't analyze, evaluate or decipher his reaction until then. No expectations.

I truly feel for both you and your H.

God Bless

Classic WS syndrome. Insist on forcing pace of recovery. Expecting easily measured results for their herculean efforts.

What is needed is normal human effort and herculean patience.

Sometimes I think BS's maybe slow to react to their WS's efforts because they may be acting passive aggressive.

I'm not insisting on forcing the pace of anything. I just want some kind of signal that SOMETHING I'm doing is helping him to heal. That SOMETHING is encouraging him to reach out and take my hand. I don't need huge, just....something.

I don't know what is "normal" anymore. All I know is I miss my husband. I want him in my life.

He's gone from texting me and wanting me to meet him at home for lunch for SF at the beginning of this month to seeming to flat-out hate me. Yes, I know recovery is a roller coaster, but I can't help feeling that it is something that I have done in that span of time to cause this wave of hatred. That somehow I am failing in meeting his needs, but when I ask him for help in doing so - my "what can I do?" questions are met with "I don't knows."

TheRoad, do you see signs of this in our recovery? If so, is there a way for the WS to address this?

I guess it's just that it seems to be getting progressively worse instead of better. Is this normal? Will the roller coaster ever start climbing again?

You know the ordeal your BH went through with his parents. He saw you as someone who would be a rock, a cornerstone for him.
He saw you as someone he could trust. Someone who would never deeply hurt him. Especially the way his parents did.

Now with what has happened he sees his parents relationship within his relationship with you.
That was something he never wanted in his marriage and now it's there.

He loves you, but does not feel he can get to the point of you being his rock, or his cornerstone again.

I applaud your efforts because you really have been trying hard.

I hope that he can see that and see the wife he once believed in.
Right now that is too hard for him to see and he feels he needs to distance himself from the pain.
Distance himself from you and the familiarity of his childhood home environment.
He feels like giving up, because he doesn't have what he thought he did.
I know that is painful..it is painful for you to be in that spot as the remembrance of his childhood and painful for him to be reliving it with someone he never thought would bring it back.

I don't know if he will ever get past it. it seems so deeply embedded in him.
Just keep doing Dr. Harley's methods and maybe, just maybe he can see hope. He doesn't see any right now.

I know I've mentioned it before, and I do not want to alarm you, but keep an eye open for Contrast Effect. He was in a vulnerable position after your affair, and it's possible he's experiencing Contrast Effect with some other person himself. That can cause your Love Bank balances to plummet through no (current) fault of your own.

I'm probably over-projecting here, but I know the experience of my stepbrother. He was acting as if he was recovering fine with his wife until another woman at work sympathized with him. Shortly thereafter it was all over but filing the divorce papers. And him putting a bullet through his head out of despair a few months later.

Wulff,

Yes it is possible that he will get progressively worse and not better. He is the one that has to heal, you can only change the dressings. He is in a very dark spot and until he decides to change his life, he won't come out.

You need patience and you need time. Keep your life busy and fulfilling, and have patience with yourself and him. He has control of his healing and whether or not he wants to heal. Then he must decide how he will heal.

Calm down, be a good human being, show love when you can and give this time and patience, T&P.

God Bless,

JL

DNM, your 1st paragraph is good advice. Is the point of your 2nd paragraph that they should be on alert for signs of depression? I was very sorry for you and your stepbrother & all affected when you first posted of his experience, and I assume that repeating the bullet-through-the-head account here is connected with a point of advice and is not gratuitous, b/c I assume that WPG has been feeling plenty rotten about things already.

@GloveOil Alas, I'm human. My brother was really on my mind today, and the account here is disturbingly similar to me: the withdrawal, the spiraling depression after a seemingly positive turn, etc.

Quick post just to check in. Still working on getting DH out of withdrawal into conflict. Thank you for all the advice the past couple of days. I've been out of the office part of yesterday and today at a meeting so have been trying to text him frequently throughout the day. I gave him my boss's cell # plus the # of the place we're at in case he wanted to check to see if I was where I said I'd be. He has responded to one text, earlier today - I'd texted him to say that his kiss goodbye this morning was nice, I was thinking about wanting to kiss him now. He responded, "Hard to believe when you told the OM he was bigger and better in bed." Yes, it was upsetting but I tried to take it as a positive sign he was at least popping into conflict with me, if only briefly. I reiterated that he was my choice, that I was committed to our marriage. I also texted a bit later and told him when we were breaking for lunch, that he could come and meet me. No response to that one.

DNM, your brother's story scares me b/c I feared that DH was suicidal at one point not too many months ago. He had said some things that genuinely concerned me and I actually called his counselor. I wasn't sure how he'd take it, whether he would think I was overstepping or what...but I did what I thought was right. I wouldn't know where to start looking for any evidence of contrast effect at play here, though. I really don't know anyone at his work and he has always been a very private person, I don't feel the need to do any snooping at this point.

ANyway, have to go back to the meeting now. I haven't been able to concentrate very well - his earlier text came in the middle of one of the presentations this morning and he's just been pretty much all I have been able to think about while I'm here.

Just thanks, everyone, for your support, it means a lot!

Today's article for you. Your husband certainly has some resentment to overcome, but the main thing that needs to happen over the next couple of years is to complete recovery together.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html