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There is one point that should be clear. WPG's H did not demand or even ask for the poly test. She decided that it would help her set his mind straight about a couple of things one was how many times thay had sex during the affair. She claimed two, he did not believe her, the poly apparently supports her claim.

Her H now has one data point that can be confirmed and that he is not required to believe, but knows.

Just some thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
WP,

My guess you were more open with OM, because deep down you didn't care what he thought. You worry what your H would think of you if you wanted something a bit...different. Yet, if you were to ask, showed/explained how you wanted it and it was successful, it is one more demonstration that he could satisfy you.

JL,

This is exactly why/how I was able to enjoy SF with the OM. It drives my DH crazy that he feels I "affaired down". What I have tried to tell him is that it wasn't OM, it was me when I was with OM. I didn't lhave to live up to any expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me. I was more free because I didn't care as much!

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Wulffpack_girl,

I am sorry I haven't read the entire thread - only parts here and there. What I see is some of the things my H struggled with (still does??? I don't know). He felt that nothing he did was good enough to help me heal... at one point, almost 3 years after the A!, he got so discouraged that he started to withdraw and build a wall around him. THAT got me so upset - I couldn't take it for more than a week. I cried and cried and told him we should consider separation.

My point is - don't give up! My H has tried really hard to prove his dedication and love and I still drop A bombs because of the triggers. I probably shouldn't, but I can't help it. And yet, I NEED to see and feel his attempts at making "us" work. He's been very successful and there are more good days than bad days. But if he stops, there's no future for us, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
WP,

Congratulations on taking the Poly. Although he might not admit it now, I am sure that having a few of your answers substantiated has helped him.

I hope so. I do have a lot of fear that I've given him more to doubt. GO is right, though, I do know that perfect love casts out fear. I am a long way from perfect yet...I would agree with you, JL, I think the trust issue is a problem for both sides. More on that in a bit.

We did not really dicuss the poly yesterday. I just didn't want to talk about it, and he didn't bring it up. I did apologize for being "all worked up" and I'll be honest, Gamma's posts upset me because I immediately started thinking "Cr@p, I've done something else wrong." And although I passed the poly, I didn't pass it with flying colors - the first test I passed with no problems (that one asked about # of times and verified NC); the second test asked if I'd seen OM at any time while DH was out of town and if I'd had sex with OM on any of our property. The first time I took that test, I failed. We stopped the test and the examiner re-interviewed me and we clarified the questions to include "physically" (i.e., "physically meet OM..." or "physically have sex with OM on..."). In the second interview, she said even the sexy talk on the computer - which is property - my mind could register as lying. Following the clarification of the questions, I took the second test again and I passed.

In my mind all I see is that is another door opened for doubt to creep in. I understand it the way the examiner explained it, and she said it was clearly a difference in my responses the second time. As a side note, the "scientist" in me was rather amazed at how specific and detailed the questions need to be and how the mind works.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Because it is imperative that you quit second guessing yourself and start being honest with your H. When you need a hug from him, ask for it. When you fear things talk with him about YOUR fears, and seek his help or advice. He does not have to solve your problems but it is best to keep him in the loop.
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You don't trust him much thus you constantly second guess what you should say or not say.

I am not saying blurt out anything that comes to mind, but I am saying if you expect him to communicate with you, do the same with him.

I say trust he will do the best he can, so make sure he has the best information possible...be open and honest. Seek his help, seek his advice, seek his comfort and show him that he is needed.

You're right, JL...I don't completely trust him right now. I know a lot of that is fear talking. I know that he's hurt, and that he, as the BS, must dictate the pace of recovery. But, on the other hand I think about the words he's said or written to me since D-Day #2, of forgiveness and love, of choosing to stay in this marriage with me, and then he shuts down again and does a complete 180. I have this fear that 5 years, 10 years, down the road he's going to turn and look at me and say, "You know what? You weren't worth it" and next I'll be hearing from his attorneys. And yes, that's his choice and I've given him that card to play. And really, it doesn't change things for me as I love him regardless...it's just a fear.

It's hard, too, to ask for things and then not get them ("I love it when you put your arm around me while we're snuggling on the couch") - well, ok, maybe that is not a direct question. It all goes back to fear. That one, fear of rejection.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Don't you see the pattern here? He was closed to you for years. I call this lying by omission. You had an affair, and lied to him by omission and just flat out lied. Worse you lied to yourself. He was open with you during FR and it helped you tremendously, but unfortunately you were still lying to him.

He then closed himself off again, and won't tell you why he does things like the bedroom incident. You meanwhile are trying to do the right thing, which means you are holding back on him. You need his help, you need him in your life, you fear something, you want to help, you want to talk about what you learned, YOU MUST OPEN UP AND BE HONEST. You have not been by the same standard I applied to him.

Have you realized that the history of your marriage is withholding information? Have you realized that a new marriage requires that you SHARE information.

We failed to communicate for years. Both of us. And I know I am holding back on him now. I could use his love and support today. I'm still just so raw from yesterday. Some people on here have accused me of being too "I focused" so I apologize if this comes across that way, but yesterday took a lot out of me. I tried to tell him a little of that last night before we went to bed. I haven't heard from him today, but then again I haven't tried to contact him today either.

Originally Posted by DrH
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future. If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.

Yes, I see where this works both ways. There are a multitude of things for both of us we're not being O&H about, and I am not talking about the facts of the A - I'm talking about what is going on in each of us now. For example, I discovered yesterday that DH had taken a loan out of his 401(k) without a word to me beforehand. I realize that it's his money, but it still bothered me. But then in response, do I do anything about it? No, I made a couple of comments, "I had heard that borrowing from your 401(k) was not a good idea" which were probably not phrased very well, but I was sort of suprised. And we're not honest about our feelings. I am trying to do better at that but yes, I do still sometimes second-guess everything before I say it. And I feel like I have no clue how he is feeling. I ask him often, especially if I can see in his face that he seems upset or preoccupied, but it's always "nothing."

I'm still here, I'm just working on bouncing back from yesterday.


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Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
I forgot about something; this episode Friday night. Has anything like that occurred prior to the A? Ask him.

I went through exactly that scenario, over and over, for years prior to closing myself off.

Same guilt; dishonesty by omission.


HHH, I can't recall anything like that ever happening before. A much more likely scenario in our M was me being the aggressor for SF and being turned down. I never got a reason for that either - I came to assume that it meant DH was not attracted to me, that he didn't think I was beautiful anymore, I worried for a time after we had the kids that after seeing childbirth he'd never want to go back down there again, lol faint If DH wanted SF with me, I very rarely turned him down, even if my other intimate EN's weren't met (as I've said, I think that with DH I accepted SF as a substitute for the other EN's of affection, admiration, conversation, and heck, maybe even RC!) and I can see that maybe this last week that he wanted me to be the "old me," my more aggressive self - the only reason I didn't was my own stupid fears.


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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
I know that he's hurt, and that he, as the BS, must dictate the pace of recovery.

That's not entirely true. It's very possible -- and quite likely -- that if you don't respond in the way he expects you to when he Love-Busts you with reminders of the affair, that he'll modify his behavior. Typically betrayed spouses bring up the affair for one of two reasons:

1. The betrayal is too fresh, and we have not yet trained ourselves to control our response to triggers, and act out rather than thinking through the consequences of our emotions, or
2. There is some secondary gain to be had by bringing up the affair, like winning an argument, seeing you cry when we feel bad, etc.

As long as you believe that mechanism #1 is what's at play here, then it's still time to provide loving support. IGNORE the Love-Busting comments about the affair as much as possible. REWARD behavior that you approve of, particularly on the days he refrains from bringing up the affair entirely.

If mechanism #2 is what's kicking in, then it's time for this little excerpt from Dr. Harley:

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.

Quote
I have this fear that 5 years, 10 years, down the road he's going to turn and look at me and say, "You know what? You weren't worth it" and next I'll be hearing from his attorneys.

But can't either one of you do this at any point in your marriage? I mean, here in Utah, at any given moment if you expedite the divorce you're just two weeks away from being single.

Two. Weeks.

And it doesn't matter if there was infidelity or not. No-fault divorces allow you to get a divorce just because you feel like it that day, and then you could walk out from the courthouse where you just got a divorce, write down your information for the clerk, and get a marriage license seconds later.

So this fear of yours isn't rational. This can happen to any person at any time in ANY marriage! It's something we all live with. Build Love Bank balances, work diligently to make sure you meet your husband's most important emotional needs, help guide him in meeting yours, avoid Love Busters, spend enough time together alone to deposit plenty of Love Units, be Radically Honest about your feelings at all times, and get on with your lives.

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I could use his love and support today. I'm still just so raw from yesterday.

Go tell him that. Right now. Send him an SMS with that exact message, changing "his" to "your". That's what Radical Honesty is about! How can he possibly meet your needs if he doesn't know them?

But don't expect him to meet them right away. This is a process, not an event. Offer him the opportunity to meet your needs through your honesty.


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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Originally Posted by Just Learning
WP,

My guess you were more open with OM, because deep down you didn't care what he thought. You worry what your H would think of you if you wanted something a bit...different. Yet, if you were to ask, showed/explained how you wanted it and it was successful, it is one more demonstration that he could satisfy you.

JL,

This is exactly why/how I was able to enjoy SF with the OM. It drives my DH crazy that he feels I "affaired down". What I have tried to tell him is that it wasn't OM, it was me when I was with OM. I didn't lhave to live up to any expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me. I was more free because I didn't care as much!

Hello Sunnydaze,

Could you tell us what the "expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me" were that made you more free with the OM than your H?

Question #2 is what exactly was it that you "didn't care as much" about with the OM that you did with your H?

I believe the answer to these questions is also what is "driving your DH crazy" because I don't believe he understands either and for him to accept you NOW he needs to know THAT state of mind no longer exists with you today and not simply because the OM is no longer a part of yor life...

He needs to know WHY that state of mind is NOT coming back.

God bless.

Jim



FWW 48 had EA and PA affair with my brother which ended in 2006. Me BH 53. Happily recovering with a new and better marriage through MB!!! My thread - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2110024#Post2110024
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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
I forgot about something; this episode Friday night. Has anything like that occurred prior to the A? Ask him.

I went through exactly that scenario, over and over, for years prior to closing myself off.

Same guilt; dishonesty by omission.


HHH, I can't recall anything like that ever happening before. A much more likely scenario in our M was me being the aggressor for SF and being turned down. I never got a reason for that either - I came to assume that it meant DH was not attracted to me, that he didn't think I was beautiful anymore, I worried for a time after we had the kids that after seeing childbirth he'd never want to go back down there again, lol faint If DH wanted SF with me, I very rarely turned him down, even if my other intimate EN's weren't met (as I've said, I think that with DH I accepted SF as a substitute for the other EN's of affection, admiration, conversation, and heck, maybe even RC!) and I can see that maybe this last week that he wanted me to be the "old me," my more aggressive self - the only reason I didn't was my own stupid fears.

So, on that point, I am more in-line with you than with him. Scenarios play out the same, resulting feelings are similar. Though, I never gave birth, and if I did, I WOULD BE RIIIIIIIIICH!!!!!

And while the floor is open on that; the conversation between you and seeking about SF - and a mention in another thread by another WS kind of struck up an interesting conversation between FWW and I about SF.

FWW hadn't viewed "intimacy" as something involved in SF previous to our relationship, didn't consciously view it as intimate during our M - until the A. It was one of the devastating factors. One of the things stated was "I didn't find what I was looking for," and another is "I never felt any connection." Post-A, her attitude and view towards SF has drifted dramatically. It was because her poor "admission price" to SF, and how she carried it through our marriage - that when she put herself in a situation where there was absolutely no intimacy involved or even intended - that she saw SF as an intimate act. She had always detached intimacy from SF. Not so any more, and I notice that very much.

Pre-A you and her were mirror image on your SF views and attitudes. It's what draws us both to you and your BH's recovery. We read your posts together, and she asks if you are her long-lost sister, or the same woman in another body.

Another thing that has popped up, is this idea of "With OM I felt 'free/not obligated/open' during SF."

What is this saying? It is saying that there is some sort of dysfunction. There is some sort of lack of O&H, and a bevvy of DJ's on the part of one spouse or the other, or both.

This feeling of "not wanting to disappoint" the BS on the part of the WS is directly routed in DJ, and thus the "freedom" experienced with an AP is as false as the fantasy itself. If you can not experience not only the same freedom with your spouse, and in fact more, then one spouse or the other has a DJ to overcome.

Bah. That's something we haven't expanded on, and I'm not sure that I really want to...

Anyway, hopefully your work and sacrifice this week will start to show some dividends for both of you.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by onefallday
Wulffpack_girl,

I am sorry I haven't read the entire thread - only parts here and there. What I see is some of the things my H struggled with (still does??? I don't know). He felt that nothing he did was good enough to help me heal... at one point, almost 3 years after the A!, he got so discouraged that he started to withdraw and build a wall around him. THAT got me so upset - I couldn't take it for more than a week. I cried and cried and told him we should consider separation.

My point is - don't give up! My H has tried really hard to prove his dedication and love and I still drop A bombs because of the triggers. I probably shouldn't, but I can't help it. And yet, I NEED to see and feel his attempts at making "us" work. He's been very successful and there are more good days than bad days. But if he stops, there's no future for us, I'm afraid.


Thank you, onefallday for posting. I can't imagine the pain a BS goes through and I'm happy for you that your H is working hard to help you heal. I can understand the urge to retreat and build a wall, though - it is something I struggle with as well. Not because I don't want my H, but some days the discouragement gets too overwhelming. I've struggled a lot with disappointment and discouragement, as I expect many FWS do when in recovery. I take every day as an opportunity for choice - I choose to do whatever I can for my DH to help him heal. I choose to show him love and respect regardless of what he does or doesn't do. We make choices every day, and it is up to us to ensure they are the RIGHT choices - during my A, I made all the wrong choices - but they were MY choices, I made them, I cannot blame them on anyone other than myself. In the same way, making the right choices is my responsibility, today and every day. And because my marriage is the right choice, because my DH is the right choice, that is what I allow to guide me from here on out.

I truly hope that you and your H are able to heal from his A. My DH echoes what you've said in that he's told me it is what I am doing that is helping to keep him here. If that's not motivation to keep it up, then I don't know what is!


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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Thank you, onefallday for posting.

I'm glad you found my post helpful. I wish you and your H all the best.

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Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
I know that he's hurt, and that he, as the BS, must dictate the pace of recovery.

That's not entirely true. It's very possible -- and quite likely -- that if you don't respond in the way he expects you to when he Love-Busts you with reminders of the affair, that he'll modify his behavior. Typically betrayed spouses bring up the affair for one of two reasons:

1. The betrayal is too fresh, and we have not yet trained ourselves to control our response to triggers, and act out rather than thinking through the consequences of our emotions, or
2. There is some secondary gain to be had by bringing up the affair, like winning an argument, seeing you cry when we feel bad, etc.

DNM, I also read your other post about when to stop discussing the A, if it is, as Dr. H puts it, an "enemy to good conversation."

I suppose I feel that since I lied to him for so long, that if he needs to discuss the A then I owe that to him. But I do agree that rational discussion, like DH and I had last night, is a far, far different cry than the text he sent me last week.

When I got home yesterday I asked him if he'd like to talk after the girls went to bed, that if he had questions about the poly or anything else that we could spend some time talking. I felt like it went well, he asked why I went with those particular questions and what I felt like they covered. He still wished that the question was asked regarding if OM had traveled on any of my out of town trips. Granted, an important issue, but it would be likely that if he had traveled w/me, I would not have passed the question on the # of times being no more than 2, since sex was defined as, well, anything sexual.

Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
I have this fear that 5 years, 10 years, down the road he's going to turn and look at me and say, "You know what? You weren't worth it" and next I'll be hearing from his attorneys.

But can't either one of you do this at any point in your marriage? I mean, here in Utah, at any given moment if you expedite the divorce you're just two weeks away from being single.

So this fear of yours isn't rational. This can happen to any person at any time in ANY marriage! It's something we all live with. Build Love Bank balances, work diligently to make sure you meet your husband's most important emotional needs, help guide him in meeting yours, avoid Love Busters, spend enough time together alone to deposit plenty of Love Units, be Radically Honest about your feelings at all times, and get on with your lives.

I know it's not rational. I honestly told him about it last night while we talked. I think it's not so much the fear of him leaving, it's the "not worth it" part. I asked him if he knew what he wanted to do, and he said no. That it still changes moment to moment. One moment he's all in, thinking yes, definitely, this is what I want, and the next he's done and can't get beyond it. He says the poly helped, probably more than he's letting me know or more than I realize, but that it is not all of it - that what devastates him is the totality of it, not just the acts but the lies and betrayal.

Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
How can he possibly meet your needs if he doesn't know them?

But don't expect him to meet them right away. This is a process, not an event. Offer him the opportunity to meet your needs through your honesty.


You're right. I admitted as much to him last night, that I know I am not being completely honest about how I am feeling and what I need with him now. And that's something I need to work on. As JL said, I've definitely got trust issues right now. And it's not just with DH - part of the problem is that I no longer trust myself. I've lost a lot of confidence in myself because of what I did, and I am working to bring that back.


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Originally Posted by seekingbalance
WP � I hesitate to speak after JL as anyone would � since I read whatever he says, I found myself back on your thread.

I don�t know who your H is so I haven�t read his thread.

I try REALLY hard not to project my personal situation on my posts to others. REALLY hard. I�m probably crossing that line with this post, but I�m going to say it anyway.

Know reading what I am about to say that if my H asked me to take a polygraph on the details of my relationship with OM, my response would have been an immediate and unequivocal �shall we have one lawyer or two � I�ve been researching collaborative divorce, and I think we can do that.�

Why? Because I recognize that if he were to put me through that as a condition for reconciliation, I would hate him so much there would be zero hope of building a healthy marriage. Given that he already hated me for having an A, I would simply end it there.

I don�t know if DrH has weighed in on the utility of polygraphs in infidelity, but in my opinion they have only one legitimate use: is the affair over?

There is a level of humiliation below which I absolutely refuse to fall. Taking a polygraph is at least 5 degrees below that level. Actually, it doesn�t even have a level it is so far off what I would do. That�s me. I tell you that so you can weigh what I am saying appropriately.

I have to ask you this. Do you REALLY want to be married for the rest of your life to a man who:

1. Will not commit to a marriage recovery program.
2. Will not let your A go and evidently brings it up at whatever time he wants in whatever way he wants with wanton disregard of how that might impact you in that moment.
3. Sends you A bombs in the middle of your work day 10 months out, thereby demonstrating zero understanding of your emotional state and vulnerability.
4. Sort of maybe kind of wants you to take a polygraph where you will be questioned about intimate humiliating details of your life.
5. Won�t commit to accepting the results of that polygraph as dispositive.
6. Doesn�t go with you to the polygraph, thereby reserving the right to question the whole process.
7. Doesn�t go with you to the polygraph to ensure that the exact questions he wants answered are asked and answered in a form and way he finds acceptable,
8. In my opinion, is obsessing to a grotesque and repellant degree on the physical details.
9. Puts you through that ordeal, which is solely for his benefit, without his presence to support you.
10. Reserves the right to question the results of the polygraph, and/or bring up the results and/or any details of the A at any time in the future he thinks he needs to �heal�.

How do you see your future with such a man (and at this point, I�m using that term loosely)? How do you envision your children�s future? What is going to be their �take-away� message about marriage from a father who does that and a mother who puts up with it?

There is a poster to your thread who is who are obsessing about the most intimate (�how wet did she get?") details his wife�s affairs twenty years after the A � is that where you are headed?

Really, what are you fighting for? From where I sit, it�s an illusion of what you wish your H was, but, based upon his passive/aggressive/punishment mode, never will be. He�s choosing that by the way. He doesn't want to get over it.

My M is not recovered. If it doesn�t, it will be because of what JL said, not because I was unwilling to endure X amount of humiliation or do Y amount of making amends. My M may not recover. But for sure I will.

I hate if for YOU that you took that polygraph as I fear you just gave your H another way demean you.

There seems to be this unspoken suggestion in this forum that a WS has to do whatever for however long. That simply isn�t the case, which is why DrH recommends that once the details of the A are disclosed, the subject is closed.

That doesn�t sit well with BS�s who are in the majority here. Many BS�s post vociferously about any limits on discussion of the A as the WS trying to �control the pace and scope of recovery�.

Never mentioning the A after the details are disclosed is the MB program, and DrH includes it for a reason: it matters to the WS, and it matters to the M.

The goal is recover the M, not serve the interests of the BS or the WS.

WPG, if you are serious about R do yourself a favor and ignore this fogbabble. crazy

Good job on getting the poly done. JL's posts are right one. Take care.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Originally Posted by Just Learning
WP,

My guess you were more open with OM, because deep down you didn't care what he thought. You worry what your H would think of you if you wanted something a bit...different. Yet, if you were to ask, showed/explained how you wanted it and it was successful, it is one more demonstration that he could satisfy you.

JL,

This is exactly why/how I was able to enjoy SF with the OM. It drives my DH crazy that he feels I "affaired down". What I have tried to tell him is that it wasn't OM, it was me when I was with OM. I didn't lhave to live up to any expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me. I was more free because I didn't care as much!


Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Another thing that has popped up, is this idea of "With OM I felt 'free/not obligated/open' during SF."

What is this saying? It is saying that there is some sort of dysfunction. There is some sort of lack of O&H, and a bevvy of DJ's on the part of one spouse or the other, or both.

This feeling of "not wanting to disappoint" the BS on the part of the WS is directly routed in DJ, and thus the "freedom" experienced with an AP is as false as the fantasy itself. If you can not experience not only the same freedom with your spouse, and in fact more, then one spouse or the other has a DJ to overcome.

I don't know about feeling more free and open. I mean, I can agree on one hand that I didn't care what OM thought, but then again I was only presenting a part of myself. I wasn't honest with OM either about myself or about the things about him that bothered me. The sex with OM wasn't anything unusual or "different" - I've done far more with DH, both pre-A but especially after the A, as we got very adventurous after D-Day #1 and before D-Day #2.

The only way I know to describe it was looking back, I was not being "myself." It was more like I was being that girl in HS and in college who just wanted to do what the guy of the moment wanted her to do, and did it only because I wanted approval. I couldn't see this at the time - the only "clue" I had was a feeling of not being comfortable in my own skin when I was with OM - this, my mind/body's way of screaming "Hey dummy! This is wrong!!!" I unfortunately disregarded in favor of the "high" I got from the attention.

Yes, the attention OM paid me was a thrill - the texts, the emails, the flattering words. But the sex in and of itself was unfulfilling. I was rarely honest or fulfilled with any of those previous guys that I put out for, because I felt that if I was, and told them "hey, that just didn't do it for me, do this instead," that the approval would stop.

But I can see that I carry some of the same attitudes into my M - it all goes back to fear. I know that I need to work on being more honest with DH about the state of my emotions NOW. I think our talk last night helped. I know that I feel better now after honestly telling him how taking the poly made me feel and how I'm constantly afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing to him, and I told him that I'd much rather he straight-up tell me when he's at those low points instead of retreating, that I want to help him heal and I want to know what he needs. And too, that both of us need healing. I think the fact that there are things I need to heal from too is something that I've tried not to express to him for fear of hurting or discouraging him even more. And HHH is correct, THAT is a DJ.

Last edited by wulffpack_girl; 11/03/10 08:32 AM. Reason: added info

FWW

"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Originally Posted by Just Learning
WP,

My guess you were more open with OM, because deep down you didn't care what he thought. You worry what your H would think of you if you wanted something a bit...different. Yet, if you were to ask, showed/explained how you wanted it and it was successful, it is one more demonstration that he could satisfy you.

JL,

This is exactly why/how I was able to enjoy SF with the OM. It drives my DH crazy that he feels I "affaired down". What I have tried to tell him is that it wasn't OM, it was me when I was with OM. I didn't lhave to live up to any expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me. I was more free because I didn't care as much!

Hello Sunnydaze,

Could you tell us what the "expectations that I feel my DH has imposed on me" were that made you more free with the OM than your H?

Question #2 is what exactly was it that you "didn't care as much" about with the OM that you did with your H?

I believe the answer to these questions is also what is "driving your DH crazy" because I don't believe he understands either and for him to accept you NOW he needs to know THAT state of mind no longer exists with you today and not simply because the OM is no longer a part of yor life...

He needs to know WHY that state of mind is NOT coming back.

God bless.

Jim



Jim,
Thanks for your questions. I actually think Head Held High answered it quite well in his next post. It is all about the DJ's. I could "sense" when my DH was disappointed or unhappy with SF. Most of all it, I'm learning now was a DJ on my part. Some of it was self esteem issues and some of it was the information my DH gave me through his verbalizations about me and others.

He often commented on women's attractiveness using strong terminology. I was worried about how I looked, smelled, performed etc. He did view porn and began making suggestions on how to imporove our sex life.

Before listening and talking to others here, I thought that I was a prude or a whiner for not wanting to participate in some of the things he was suggesting. I never trusted my gut instinct. I read forums and spoke to friends who woudn't perform certain sexual acts and would pride myself on not being like that.

Of course I cared what OM thought but not in the way I did with DH. I didn't have to hear his sighs of disappointment and disgust. Because I wasn't around him a lot, I didn't know if he ogled other women and wished that I could be like them so I could "suspend disbelief". Also the OM was not "good with the women" or so he said, so I guess I thought I was the best he could get.

I think I have always felt my DH married me because he didn't think he could do any better. He consistently chose IB over time with me and complained about all my faults.

It turns out that he has been depressed for a long time. When we discuss this, he says he thinks he was always looking for a bigger "thrill" to get him to feel. He does not appear to have the same hang ups as he had in the past although I am still wary of his scruntiny.

On my part, I am trying to stop my DJ's. I have told him that we need to openingly discuss what makes him happy in bed and how we can best achieve that without making me miserable. He still ties a lot of his attitude into whether I "finish" or not. This still does impose pressure on me. I resist the urge to "fake it" and keep the consistent message that I am enjoying myself immensely but biologically don't always have the same results. I am trying to be freer but like WPG, I worry still about how he perceives my actions and that is still a problem.

I hope I am doing this right....not to TJ but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

WPG, I relate a lot to your situation. I have posted to your husband from my perspective and hope he doesn't lose hope.

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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
He did view porn and began making suggestions on how to imporove our sex life...I think I have always felt my DH married me because he didn't think he could do any better. He consistently chose IB over time with me and complained about all my faults.

redflag Uhh, @sunnydaze53, is this still the case today? Or have the two of you fixed this together? The Policy of Sexual Exclusivity is pretty clear: pornography use causes Contrast Effect, reducing a wife's Love Bank balance with her husband without her knowledge or consent.

You obviously are working on your side of the fence here. If he ever engages in this behavior again, it's a huge Love Buster not just for you, but for him! Is he working on his other IBs, too?


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seekingbalance said:

Quote
Know reading what I am about to say that if my H asked me to take a polygraph on the details of my relationship with OM, my response would have been an immediate and unequivocal �shall we have one lawyer or two � I�ve been researching collaborative divorce, and I think we can do that.�

THUD. Holy fogbabble talk, Batman. Seriously???

WPG, my husband took a poly and it was one of the BEST.THINGS. he could have done. It helped us immensely. It more than proved his willingness for "just compensation". He didn't even bat an eye when this was suggested to us. He called and set it up IMMEDIATELY. This was a huge turning point in our recovery. If you want to begin to build trust then please do this.

Quote
WPG, if you are serious about R do yourself a favor and ignore this fogbabble. crazy

ITA.

"seekingbalance" ~ who are you helping by saying this? Your marriage is far from recovered, obviously ~ and it's very clear why. Please do not try to bring other FWSs down to your level by encouraging them to do things that have been immensely helpful to others. That is not marriage building, that is interjecting your own extremely foggy ideas onto others who are asking for help.

My FWH is THRILLED he took that poly. THRILLED. He recommends it to other FWSs wholeheartedly. If you haven't taken one and haven't seen the benefit to your marriage then you don't know what you are talking about. Your husband has good reason to want one from you, this fogbabble isn't normal after you have been in R this long.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
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Originally Posted by seekingbalance
I hate if for YOU that you took that polygraph as I fear you just gave your H another way demean you.

Try to avoid projecting your situation on other posters.

Quote
There seems to be this unspoken suggestion in this forum that a WS has to do whatever for however long.

No, there isn't. We just had a heated debate last week about whether or not a wayward wife should agree to all of her betrayed husband's sexual demands. The answer from the loudest oldest vets (and from Dr. Harley's writings) is a resounding "NO."

You are misrepresenting the opinions that people express on this board. I think you misunderstood some things early on and have missed a lot of chances to correct your misimpressions.

Quote
That doesn�t sit well with BS�s who are in the majority here. Many BS�s post vociferously about any limits on discussion of the A as the WS trying to �control the pace and scope of recovery�.

Again, no they don't. Right over on another thread AS WE SPEAK people are talking about how you need to keep such discussions controlled and not dwell on mistakes of the past for recovery.

I think you need to do a lot more reading before you can present your impressions of the majority opinions around here as conclusive.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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seeking balance said:
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I try REALLY hard not to project my personal situation on my posts to others. REALLY hard.

That's a fantastic plan. You should stick to it. wink


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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seekingbalance said:

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I�m probably crossing that line with this post,

Yes, you did. Not probably, definitely. Please stick to your original plan.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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Quote
There seems to be this unspoken suggestion in this forum that a WS has to do whatever for however long.

Not even close. We speak all the time about "just compensation". It isn't "indefinite compensation" or "just-for-the-heck-of-it compensation".

Reading comprehension, my friend. It's talked about allll the time on these boards. "JUST" compensation.

Marcos had a great suggestion ~ it would be helpful if you stopped projecting your situation onto others.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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