((((WPG)))),

I just wanted to send you hugs and encouragement. Keep it up, and try not to lose hope.

I think you bring up a good point here. It's kind of something that I feel would be a good expanded discussion.

It seems that the issue of orgasm is HUGE for BHs - and there is a lot built into that.

Yes, I asked this question of my FWW. Yes, I worry about it when we engage in SF. Part of it is ego, part of it is "giver" thought. It is something that I am trying to overcome, because my FWW is trying to be more "giving" in the SF department, and I have to silence my giver and allow her to do so. KWIM? It's a hypocritical thing, because I will "give" to her without a second thought for myself, but won't allow her to do the same...

Anyway, back to "orgasm and the OM."

It seems for you, it does take a full physical/emotional/spiritual engagement. I can't say if that makes you the exception or the rule, but I think that most men feel that you would be the rule. Thus, for you to orgasm with the OM is an indicator of your engagement to the act with him. This, wrapped inside a DJ, presents a lot of increased pressure on a BH to "compete" with that experience.

"Why isn't she as engaged with ME?"

How many magazines have you seen about women "not experiencing orgasm unti XYZ?" That's a lot of pressure for a H to deal with. How much of a man can you be if you don't make your W "pop?" And some OM pulled it off when you can't? You AREN'T A MAN!!!!

These socially-programmed pressures just build us right in to a DJ. Then, we are told how "unsexy" it is to ask if she "went." Great! Now I have to guess! I'm working overtime here!

So, how do we fix this? PoRH, PoJA, successful negotiation. We aren't high school kids sneaking around the back seat of Dad's Lincoln. We are married people. We need to stop being so damned prudish about what we like and dislike about SF. O&H communication. I doubt there is a poster on this board that has not harped communication before their issues hit, and had just communicated in a miserably failing fashion.


My FWW, on the other hand, is the socially propagated exception (ie - the act itself triggers orgasm). So the fact that it occurred with OM is not a threat to me. I know that she experiences different types and intensities, and that the little [censored] brought the bare minimum to the table. As eloquently stated by WPG, "he was scratching his own itch."

My intentions are different, scratching my own itch is a secondary bonus to expressing love, adoration, intimacy, and attraction to my wife, as well as a complete willingness to meet her needs and please her.

Thank you, PUP...I need encouragement today.


I can understand that point. I guess my biggest problem lies in the fact of, well, my lies. DH doesn't believe that I didn't "O" with OM because he doubts my honesty. I suppose the fact that that question wasn't covered in the poly only adds to that for him - of course that is a DJ, I'm just guessing here. When DH and I have SF now, I make it a point to show him that I am engaged with him, whether that's talk, touching his face, looking in his eyes (or trying to, since lately more often his are closed). And it makes SF so much more fulfilling and intense for me, I don't know, maybe it's just that I am learning to be fully there and in the moment.

Honestly I just don't feel like dwelling on SF this morning so I'll stop there.

I had a bad night. DH seemed very closed yesterday and after our talk and intimacy Tuesday night I tried to (gently) encourage him to talk about what was on his mind. All I got out of him was that he was tired. I also had reached an assignment in the Respect Dare where I was to list 5 attributes that were reasons why I married DH, and I was to share those with him. I asked if he would like to help me with my assignment, so I sat on the couch with him after the kids had gone to bed. He turned off the TV, at least. He did not look at me while I talked to him, and didn't acknowledge anything I said. I know I am not supposed to have any expectations, so I simply thanked him for helping me with my assignment and moved on.

Next trigger for me, I am afraid, was your post, HHH, to your FWW. It brought tears to my eyes. I know comparing our recovery to anyone else's is a foolish pastime, especially since I complicated our recovery further by trickle truthing DH for 4 months. As I went to bed, I just had this overwhelming feeling of hopelessness. That I've destroyed any chance that DH will have that kind of love for me again. As I got into bed, I decided that I've been holding myself back long enough, and after I'd told him Tues. night that I had been having difficulty being completely O&H about my needs and feelings during recovery, I decided to tell him what I was feeling.

I told him I was having a bad night, and that I would really love it if he would just hold me for a while. His response: "Why?" I told him I needed his comfort, that I was struggling after the poly because having to talk about the A again in detail, it brought back the bad feelings I have about myself. I told him how sorry I was for hurting him, how much I wanted to help him to heal, how much I loved him. I can't remember everything because I unfortunately allowed myself to get all blubbery and crying. I wanted so badly for him to just reach out, touch me, say something...I finally rolled over and laid in the bed, but I couldn't stop crying so I got up and went downstairs. And still I wanted him to follow me, such a typical "pink" (female) response, and I know this - women confront to connect, men will withdraw.

I'm not giving up. It just gets so discouraging at times. But, I am trying to stay committed to being O&H with DH. I cannot control his reaction nor should I have any expectations of him.

Oh WPG, I woke up with you on my mind again. It must have been so hard for you, unable to get the hugs that you were craving.

It seems encouraging, though, that broken is still there with you.

All you can do is continue being open and honest, and hope that H will realize the beautiful person that you are.

You have a tremendous amount of courage and strength.

WPG ~ are you on ADs by any chance? My DH finally went on them after a few years in recovery because he was feeling much like you are ~ hopeless and the "bad feelings about himself" (he's used those exact same words so this is a common feeling for FWSs after an A) would not go away. Seeing me down all the time, triggering, crying, sad only made him feel worse and it was a vicious cycle he/we were in.

The ADs helped tremendously. They gave him the relief he needed so that he could do what needed to be done ~ mainly help me heal. This was a big turning point in our recovery, and even if you only do it temporarily it could be helpful.

Just a thought.

Also ~ are you doing the MB program? Meaning the DVD program? Around the time DH went on ADs we got back on the MB bandwagon and finished the program (his idea!). We went to the MBW so we had all the materials and online inventories and our marriage coach. Finishing the program has helped us a lot too.

Actually MarriedForever, the AD issue came up earlier in this thread, although it was aimed more towards whether or not DH was on ADs - I'm not currently taking anything prescription - I have in the past without much success. Side effects of those I tried drove me crazy. I had been taking St John's Wort with no difference, and Harmony had suggested 5-HTP as something that worked for her, so I am trying that now. Can't really tell if it's been helping, but it's only been a little more than a week and I just increased the dosage.

No, unfortunately we're not doing the DVDs. I have all of Dr. H's books, and I have the HNHN home study course that has the book/workbook/DVDs, but other than me cracking it open and giving DH the introduction to Dr. H's concepts DVD (at Jennifer Chalmers's suggestion, as part of trying to encourage him to participate in MB), we aren't using it. Beyond posting here, DH has not expressed any interest in getting on the MB bandwagon, so to speak. Jennifer told me that my role now was to gently encourage DH to participate in MB but I haven't really had much success.

I see. What are his reasons for not wanting to try it? Have you shown him this website and shown him that Dr. H specializes in helping couples recover from this?

Recovering from an A really isn't a "do-it-yourself" kind of a deal. You need professional help.

I'm sorry about your experiences with ADs. It does sometimes take time to find one that works for you. I just can't speak highly enough about them and my DH swears he will never go off of them (I kind of hope this isn't the case) because he feels so much better about himself and that has helped our recovery so much.

P.S. not to worry you anymore but you do want to be careful that he doesn't fall into an A himself. He is extremely vulnerable right now and it could easily happen, especially if he isn't engaged in recovery and he isn't protecting his weaknesses. I know how easy it is for a BS to fall into an A during recovery.

Well, that's been the frustrating part on the forum. His go-to excuse is "I just don't know if it's worth it" and "I'm not sure I want to recover". Occasionally there's a glimmer out of his negativity toward recovery, but rarely.

In my business, we call this "analysis paralysis". You're presented with a large number of available options, and it's easy to get any one step wrong. Therefore you do nothing, figuring that's better than doing something and making a mistake. I spend a lot of time motivating certain team members to get past the analysis paralysis and just do something; if they make a mistake, we can fix it, but if they do nothing, we're stuck in a worse place. Tough to persuade someone that where they are now is worse than where they will be if they make a mistake, though.

I think DNM is right on. He posts as broken2009 in SAA. He's read the SAA book and a lot of the articles on this website, so he's not unaware of MB. I try to stay away from reading his thread because it tends to discourage me even more. I've had 2 coaching sessions with Jennifer and invited/encouraged DH to participate, but he has not wanted to. We went to couples counseling from Aug-Nov/Dec '09 or so, and I was lying about the A during that time so it negated the progress we had made. After I admitted that the A had been a PA, we went to a second, Christian counselor. DH went back to the first therapist on an individual basis, ended up going to a psych for ADs, and also counsels with our preacher every other week. He still sees our preacher but none of the others. The last couple of sessions with the Christian counselor I ended up going to on my own. This may be a DJ, but from some of the things he's said I have gathered that he is unwilling to talk to Jennifer b/c he's "tired of talking about it." Sad thing is that if he doesn't talk to her, he won't learn that her approach is different because of the coaching vs. counseling aspect.



DNM has also mentioned to be on the lookout for "contrast effect". I don't have any evidence at this point, but then again, I am really not looking.

He's on this board too? Did he register first or did you? I've never read his thread. Is he still posting?

Coaching from Steve or Jennifer is completely different than any other MC. Traditional MCs were a complete waste of time and money and we both hated it. You do not re-hash the A or try to fix your "communication" problems with MB. You learn how to fall in love again.

I suggest you both talk about protecting your weaknesses or one or both of you is going to fall into (another, for you) affair.

I'm not sure of your story but I, too, went through periods of time where I was not willing to really engage in recovery. We
d been through a long FR,then had bouts and bouts of weak boundaries, extreme carelessness in protecting me and our marriage, lots of whining and complaining about implementing certain parts of MB, etc. If you recovery has been like that then I can understand his unwillingness to want to recover right now.

Your best bet is to Plan A your [censored] off if this is the case ~ show him how good your M can be. This is what my DH did and it paid off (the ADs helped him with this a lot). He Plan A'ed me for a long, long, LONG time while I just could not really do anything. My hurt and resentment were just too much.

He posts over on SAA. He actually registered before I did, but I lurked here for a long time before I started posting. He didn't start posting till fairly recently. I guess he's still posting - he still reads in some of the forums according to the computer history.


Totally agree. JC spent little time on the A other than to get the "Readers Digest" version. We spent some time discussing EPs and how to implement them but there was no rehashing and analyzing the A, or my childhood, or blah blah blah...


I put him through what I had kept calling a "false recovery," until DNM explained that FR implies I was still in contact with OM, which I wasn't - really I put him through 4 months of trickle-truth he77 where I lied about the extent of the A. He opened up with me during this time and he was so incredible, so amazing...and yet I kept lying to him because I thought I was protecting him. Yeah. I was protecting my own stupid selfish behind. This past January I admitted to the PA, but because of how I'd lied for so long he has struggled with doubts. That's why I took the poly this week - I felt like maybe if he could confirm what I had told him that maybe it would help him to put at least some of his doubts to rest.



That's what JC has advised me to do. That's what I am trying. I just get to the point sometimes where I really need some help from him...sometimes things seem to be going well and then he shuts down - if he is hurt, if something has triggered him, I want to know what it is so I can help if I can...but when he shuts down I feel helpless. And it's hard to keep the reins on my Taker. JC gave me some "reasons" to remind myself of why I am doing this to keep my Taker at bay. I can't expect him to feel like meeting my needs when I hurt him so badly...it still doesn't make me feel better that my needs aren't met, but then I feel selfish for thinking about my needs...ugh! Does that make any sense?

At least he's responded to a couple of emails I sent him today. Didn't send him anything mushy, after my sob-fest last night I am keeping it low key. A link to some Bobby Flay recipes (he loves Food Network!) and about a race coming up later in the winter that we ran together last year.

WPG,

In my opinion you are doing great. I liken it to being on a diet...it sucks but the results are worth it. Of course sometimes I feel like I deserve to lose weight just for driving past the ice cream parlour.

Just keep keeping on and know that we are rooting for you.

I could be jumping to conclusions but it sounds to me like you have GOT TO reign your Taker in. If you are whining or letting on to him AT ALL that you are upset that your needs aren't being met, that is a BIG FAT HUGE LBer to him. In the nicest way possible I am going to share with you what is going through his mind when he knows/has a feeling you are upset that he isn't meeting your needs:

"[censored] you. Sorry I can't meet your needs. You had them met by TWO PEOPLE while I was dying inside and you were having your A and scr*wing someone else. Suck it up, I did".

"You lied to me for 4 months on top of the lies during your A. What are you lying about now? The poly doesn't take all the lies away, it doesn't tell me that you won't lie to me again in the future. Sorry I don't feel like sharing my deepest, darkest feelings with you, I don't trust you. I don't even think I know you."

"I feel like I am going to die. Can emotional pain kill a man? I'm pretty sure it's going to kill me. I wish it would, I can't stand the pain anymore."

"I will never get over this pain. I can't imagine it getting any better. There is a hole in my heart the size of Texas and I know it will never heal. How can I love someone so much and hate them at the same time?"

And these are the NICE thoughts going through his head. I am not trying to discourage you, but I hope you can see how, with these thoughts racing through his head ALL THE TIME, he cannot meet any needs right now. He is completely overwhelmed and trying to nurse his OWN wounds, much less can he help you with yours.

Again, I am not trying to be harsh but this is the reality. Your best bet is to put your needs completely away for now and meet his 150%. I know it doesn't seem fair but it will pay off in the end and your needs will be met better than ever. You just need to help him get through this without any complaining.

Comprende?

P.S. Just to be clear, anger stems from intense emotional pain. He is angry because he's been hurt so badly. If you think of his anger as a burning HURT maybe that will make it easier to understand.

He is hurting but it is coming out as anger, withdrawal, protecting himself. He is very afraid of you right now. If he opens up to you and is vulnerable to you, that opens him up to the possibility that he could be hurt again. That is a terrifying thought to a BS. It often feels easier to stay in withdrawal. I know it did for me. My husband had to drag me out of withdrawal ~ Plan A did that.

MY thought the kinds of things MF is talking about as well. but to give you hope.....it has been a looooooooooong time since he has thought any of them, and we are more in love right this second than I can remember us being in a very very very long time.

When two people care more about their M than anything else, amazing things can happen.

QFT. I often put it into the reverse order: If anything is more important to you than your spouse's feelings, that thing will probably become a problem in your marriage. Don't let anything be more important to you than your spouse's feelings.

Yes that makes sense but you need to control that Taker. An A is bad enough to recover from but trickle truth crushes an already crushed and bleeding BS. I don't know if a WS can ever fathom the sort of pain an A inflicts on a BS but you need to be mindful of the hurt and damage you have done...not to punish yourself but to have compassion for your WH. I see you have 2 DDs...just imagine the anger and hurt you would feel if someone you loved and trusted raped them and even smiled while doing it. Actually living it is far worse than imaging it.

Take a deep breathe and stay focused, WPG. It does get better.

WPG, do you know your H's top 5 ENs? When was the last time he gave them to you? They change often.

Here is something that's interesting ~ when my H first took the ENQ he didn't even list Physical Attractiveness as one of his top ENs. I eventually figured it out because he CONSTANTLY (as in many times a day) tells me he finds me attractive. This was going on even during this affair. It's ramped up while we've been in recovery.

A good way to figure out ENs if our spouse is having a hard time is to pay attention to what he comments about or does for you. For example, someone who has an EN for DS might do the dishes or fold laundry without being asked (this would be me, LOL. I get turned on in the funniest ways. DH has figured this out and is fantastic about helping out with DS when he can now).

I understand I need to control my Taker. I guess where I get confused is that DH's top EN was O&H, and that is an area that I have struggled with. I'm not referring to the A, although since we took the ENQ's several months ago that could be what he was referring to - but I struggle with letting him know how I feel now. I mean, I've felt like I was walking on eggshells and second guessing everything that I said and did, so I'm trying to be more O&H with him about what is going on with me and how I feel. I don't whine about my needs - I am careful to phrase things like "I'd really love it if/I really like it when you..."

But last night was just bad. And regrettably it probably was a LB for him. I can picture him saying every one of the statements you made, MarriedForever. As much as it would hurt to hear him say those things, I almost think it would be preferable to him withdrawing because if he said them to me, then it would be a sign he was in conflict.

As I said, we both took the ENQ's a few months ago. His top needs were O&H, DS, FS, FC, and Admiration. His mom actually comes every other week to clean the house (we pay her to do so and he's more comfortable with that than having strangers cleaning the house) so the "big stuff" is taken care of; I've worked on keeping up with the little things - like one of the things he mentioned on the ENQ was how he hated that I'd leave the breakfast dishes in the sink so he had to wash dishes before he could cook supper - so, I make time to make sure the kitchen is clean before the girls and I head out the door in the mornings. I work harder to keep up with the laundry so he doesn't run out of socks or underwear. He always did most of the cooking (he gets home from work before I do and plus he's much better at it!), so I've been pitching in and trying to cook dinner more often so he can have a break.

FS - we both work FT and pull down decent salaries. Our income took a slight hit when I gave up my PT teaching job at night, since it was a trigger for him.

FC - an area where I could do better, as I think Harley puts child care under DS, and I feel like so much of what I do would be considered child care rather than FC. We do have dinner together as a family every night but we do have a tendency to let the kids do their own thing - they probably watch too much TV and play on the computer too much. DH helps them with their HW since he is home with them in the afternoons. This is an area I can focus on but I need to find activities that we can all enjoy together. The few "fun family outings" we've had recently have been me taking the girls somewhere (like when we went to the pumpkin patch) while DH stays home (I make sure to invite him), unless it's out to eat or grocery shopping as a family.

Admiration - I admit that affection comes much easier to me, and sometimes I think the things I do may come across as affection more than admiration. I try to ask his help/advice on things, notice the things he's done around the house, compliment his cooking, express honest admiration of his skills or ideas, those kinds of things.

O&H, other than my needs/feelings, then, I let him know where I'll be during the day and how to get ahold of me if I'm out of the office - I've focused on becoming transparent with my activities and let him know he can verify them at any time - last week I was at a big meeting for a day and a half and rode to the meeting with my boss - I gave DH her cell # and the # to the hotel we had the meeting at so he could verify if he needed to. I scheduled the poly not because he demanded it, but because I wanted to do something to meet the need of O&H. I started journaling and leaving it where he is free to read it if he wants.

It's just we didn't have a perfect M before the A - no, before anybody hits me with a 2X4 I'm in no way justifying my A - that was 100% my decision and could never be justified by anything. What I'm getting at is neither of us were doing a good job in meeting each other's EN's in our old M. Now that I see what a great M can look like THAT'S what I want. And I want that with DH, not with anybody else. I don't mind at all meeting his needs - I enjoy the chance to make him happy, you know?

I think the biggest fear for me (yeah, I know, I said fear again) is not so much the issue of whether or not my needs are being met - I know he can meet my needs, I've experienced it - it is the fact that I don't know what he wants to do - does he want to recover the M or not? And that's not a DJ - that's exactly what he told me Tuesday night. He doesn't know what he wants. I know that making that decision will not stop his pain, but I feel like if we both know - YES, this M is what I/we want - that would give me a greater measure of confidence and help me cast out some of this fear. I know that it is completely his choice and I can't make it for him, and if he wants to play the "get out of marriage free" card that is his right...so maybe I'm answering myself here that I don't have a right to have an answer from him as to whether he wants to recover or not. Yeah, I think I answered myself. lol there is a reason I take so long to write my posts!!!

For you BS's who have posted to me - was there a point where you were sure that recovery was what you wanted? MarriedForever, you said you were in withdrawal a long time - when did you decide that you wanted to recover your M? Was it not till your H got you out of withdrawal? How long were you withdrawn from him?

(sorry for the barrage of questions there!)