I'm not going to apologize for being with my mother on Saturday. She and I had made plans well before I knew we had a child-free day, and I asked DH if it was OK, both then and when I found out the kids were going to spend the night elsewhere (which he told me the afternoon of). If he was being O&H with me, then he should tell me if he doesn't want me to do things with my mom. There's a lot of family issues going on with Mom, too, and I've been ignoring her and to be honest, I needed her comfort and I needed to spend time with her.

DH does not want to spend time with me. I try and try, I sit on the couch with him and watch TV, which is practically our only time together - and I know TV watching is not UA time, but during the week that's about it. I invite him to lunch w/me and get turned down or ignored. I'm working on a plan for us to do something fun on Saturday since the weeks are always so, well, blah.

He is my #1 priority. I am willing to do whatever work it takes, but I know my efforts aren't hitting the mark. He is not O&H with me, because all I want him to do is just to communicate with me, tell me if there's something I can do to help or something that he needs.

I had one of those one-sided conversations that we have these days - I'm talking, he's listening (I suppose), but not responding. I was very calm and avoided LBs - the convo was spurred by my dare yesterday. It was to come up with 3 achievements that I have done, that I have felt the Lord helping me in. Well, I couldn't think of anything. And I have a reasonably successful career, I'm a public official, I've got 2 degrees on my wall, etc...earlier at dinner I'd asked him for his take, and he said that I am forgetting the 2 most important achievements of all (the girls). But I thought about it, and I explained later that I don't see the girls as "achievements" - I see them as blessings. That they aren't here by virtue of anything I achieved, other than being able to pop 'em out safely. I explained that the way I am feeling, that none of the worldly achievements I have matter to me anymore - that what I had that WAS the thing that mattered, our family, I screwed it up. That I am willing to do whatever it takes to prove how important DH is to me, how important our M is. That's a reader's digest version, I suppose, and maybe it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I said my piece and went to bed.

Y'all can beat be up for this but I'll be honest. I'm tired of fighting. Most days I think he wants me to be the one to walk away. I keep taking my ring on and off today. The old M it symbolizes is dead. I want a new M but I can't do it alone. If he really believes I am the Wh*re of Babylon then, well, he should just tell me. I'd rather he say something to me than nothing at all.

THUD. Good luck recovering your M if this is your attitude. Seriously shocking. Why are you here on MB if you aren't willing to follow the program????

I'll finish reading your post now but I don't have a good feeling about it.

My bet is if he doesn't want to spend time with you it's because you are missing the mark on his ENs. I had a hunch this was a problem from your posts and your comment that he doesn't want to spend time with you solidified that.

Ready for a 2x4? This paragraph


doesn't sound at all like a FWW who is willing to do "whatever it takes, for however long it takes". My FWH FOUGHT for me and he didn't give up. I didn't want to engage with him either, I didn't always want to spend time with him. He wasn't meeting any of my ENs and he was being a big old whiner. That is a HUGE LBer and turn-off anytime, and especially after an A.

If you want help on what to do from here, let us know. I don't mind helping others through this but I also don't want to waste my time if it's all falling on deaf ears.

Remember ~ the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again but expecting different results.

Are you ready to stop doing the same things?

Married Forever,

This is sort of a threadjack but I feel a relevant question. How do you "do whatever it takes for as long as it takes" and still remain O&H regarding your feelings?

I ask because I am looking for the balance and I think WPG is also. I can't speak for her marriage before the affair but I do know mine was miserable. Most of that was my fault as I failed to communicate pretty much anything that made me unhappy. I was one of those people who, if someone called at 3:00am and apologized for waking me, I would tell them no problem, I was already up!

Add to that I had no boundaries (duh) and did anything my DH wanted sexually, agreed to expeditures that put me in a financial mess, and encouraged his IB.

My point is now I know that "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" while a nice sentiment, isn't really accurate. If WPG's H never begins to meet her needs, when does it no longer fall her on? I'm not saying it is now. My point is there is no time frame....2 years, 10 years?

I think it is good she is coming her to vent these feelings and leave herself open to 2 X4's rather than presenting them to her H.

"DH does not want to spend time with me. I try and try, I sit on the couch with him and watch TV, which is practically our only time together - and I know TV watching is not UA time, but during the week that's about it. I invite him to lunch w/me and get turned down or ignored. I'm working on a plan for us to do something fun on Saturday since the weeks are always so, well, blah."

Plan a family outing. Day trip, barbicue or picnic at a park as park of the outing. Invite BH. Go with the kid if he says no.
When the family gets home let the kid talk about the fun they had. What eventually happen is that after a few missed out days of fun the BH will then want to go so he is not left out from the family fun.

This stops the BH from being passive agressive to control things.

I'm not following you here, what does doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes have to do with O&H? Are you saying you and WPG (possibly) don't want to do this and you want to tell your BHs?

Please clarify so I can answer, I'm not sure this is what you are saying and want to know for sure before I respond.

I think what she is saying is that she can't really be O&H about the fact that none of her EN's are being met because that would be a huge LB to her H if he doesn't feel capable of meeting them at the moment.

I will speak for me as I can't speak for WPG so if I get 2X4's please don't assume she is a partner in crime.

I would like to be able to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. I pray to have the strength. I know I don't deserve to be happy given what I have done.

HOWEVER,

I also know it is not in my nature (or probably any human's nature) to remain in a situation where I am not getting my needs met by my H and am unable to get them met by someone else.

Before you get to angry....I DON'T mean an OM.

Using WPG as an example...her H doesn't want to do anything with her. She goes shopping with her mother and is told she should have sat around being ignored by her H.

I guess I am thinking that after doing this for an extended period of time, I couldn't help but be resentful of my H. I realize how ridiculous this sounds from someone that had an A but I am trying to be honest. I think I could do without my needs being met, not sure if I could do with them being actively avoided....forever.

When you say you didn't give at all to your DH, for how long? Do you now? What if you still couldn't? What if he really does want her to leave?

Without any movement on his part, forever seems like, well forever

Sunnydaze: Why do you think you don't deserve to be happy? I think everyone deserves to be happy. Just because you made a mistake (and an A is a HUGE mistake, don't get me wrong) does not mean that you must resign yourself to a lifetime of unhappiness. Nor does it mean that WPG should do that either. No one should have to accept a lifetime of their needs not being met.

I may get some huge 2 x 4's here, I know, but I would venture to say that most women who have an A are not getting their needs met in their M. That's not an excuse to have an A, of course, but it is what leaves us vulnerable to one. The prospect then that a WW should somehow have to accept a lifetime of not ever getting their needs met again because they have had an A and no longer have a right to get their needs met by their BH isn't a very attractive prospect. Yes, there is going to be a period of time when the BH is hurting too much to meet those needs, and maybe those needs have to be put on hold, but when this starts to look like a permanent situation, where the BH has no desire to meet his FWW's needs at all, ever, then I don't think it is a sustainable situation for either person.

For me, what made me come back and decide to work on my M was my H's almost immediate willingness to work on the problems in our M. Yes, he was in a lot of pain, and I know it must have been difficult for him. But he was able to recognize my needs that had not been getting met and take responsibility for his part in the disintegration of our M. No, he didn't take responsibility for my A. That was all mine. But he was able to take responsibility for not meeting my EN's (just like I took responsibility for his EN's that I wasn't meeting). At some point and time, I think this has to happen in order for the M to be recovered.

From what I can see, WPG's H doesn't seem to think he should even be moving in that direction, and it's beginning to wear her down. In a perfect world, someone would be able to go on giving forever without the prospect of getting anything in return, but really, how many people could sustain something like this indefinitely? And why would they want to? Why would anyone (Wayward or not) want to settle for a lifetime of never getting their needs met?

This is the ugliest lie ever propagated upon truly repentant WS's. It's garbage. It's the reflection of bitterness personified that we allow to be imposed on us as some sort of indefinite penance.

Do whatever it takes for as long as it takes means be sensitive to your BS, be O&H and allow them to freely snoop, question, grieve, etc. Work like crazy to meet their needs. BE the change you need to be.

It does NOT mean you are scum of the earth and never deserve to have another need, another hurt, time with a family member, a pedicure with a female friend (for FWW).....It does not mean groveling to your BS for the rest of your life because you are now and forever tainted.

I can say that because my marriage IS recovered. I KNOW who I am, and so does my DH. So the whole, "You aren't towing our thin red line so you are still a hussy" doesn't scare me anymore.

Folks,

Let me remind you that this is a marriage building site. One of the prime concepts on this site and actually any good site on marriage, is that both people HAVE TO BE HAPPY, to engage in a good marriage.

If people reread Harley's concepts on the giver/taker it is clear that there must be a balance for all parties concerned for their to be a good marriage. That is why Plan A is not a marriage strategy, it requires the BS to push the taker back and be a giver. If you think about it, this one concept is very unusual with regard to standard thinking. The standard thinking is the WS "owes" the BS and the BS should not be the one giving.

In reality, to rebuild a marriage both the BS and the WS must have a balance in the giver/taker thus needs should be met and consideration given between the two. It does not happen immediately, but is MUST happen.

So, does the WS ask for their needs to be met? Yes they must. Does the WS DEMAND that their needs be met? No they don't.
Does the BS DEMAND that their needs be met? No they don't.
Does the BS ask for their needs to be met? Yes they must.

How is this accomplished? By communications of course, by simply asking for them. Simple things like "I need a hug." "I need help with something." "Your presence is requested at..."

A marriage does not get rebuilt unless the WS helps the BS and often that help takes the form of open and honest communications which often means "requests", but not "demands."

Does this help? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

What she said, perfectly.

To state another way, you have the power to affect whether your spouse is happy or unhappy. It's pretty obvious that someone else can really ruin your day, right? I mean, you can build inner motivation, but it's entirely possible for someone you care about to make you miserable by their actions. MarriageBuilders hopes to create a situation in which married people tend to be happier. Building an interdependent lifestyle with your spouse leads to romantic love and marital success. And people in love are generally happier and live longer!

Whoever said you you are going to go forever without getting your needs met? Let me ask you a question, food for thought, if you will ~ how long was your affair and how long did you go without meeting your huband's needs?

I am not in any way, shape or form suggesting a tit-for-tat situation. But I do want to illustrate the absurdity of your point as well as the fact that it kind of sounds like a pity party (don't freak out, I know you may be offended at that and I'm sorry but if that is what it appears to be from here, maybe you H senses this too? And that is a LBer if he does).

Here is the thing about MB ~ by meeting your BHs needs, you are motivating him to meet yours. I don't mean this in a manipulative way; I mean it in a cause-and-effect way.

Remember the patience your BHs had with you as you were carrying on your affairs? We are asking that you have that at least that much patience (and really more, you are dealing with someone who has been victimized here, your BHs are burn victims and are not capable of responding as a non-injured person might).

Complaining (and that is what you are both doing) that you are tired, nothing is working, your needs aren't being met...comes across to me as rather childish. Please don't write off everything I say because what I am saying annoys you. I'm being as gentle as I can but I can tell you that what caused me to almost leave my husband was an attitude such as is being described here.

After everything a BS has been through, honestly, this attitude can be the final nail in the coffin. Please think about this.

(((hugs))) to you both.

Good post. Do the hard work FIRST, fall back in love FIRST, the rest of this will take care of itself. You're putting the cart before the horse when trying to move too fast into recovered mode.

P.S. and as far as the O&H stuff goes ~ I've been trying to find some stuff by Dr. Harley but I can't find it.

However, there is a common misconception that O&H means you get to tell your spouse EVERYTHING that comes to mind, even if you know it would hurt him/her. That is NOT the case. If you know something is going to be hurtful ("your butt looks fat in that, I'm just being O&H"), that is an abuse of this EN.

So...if you are telling your H "It's making me angry because you aren't meeting my needs, I want my needs met too!", well, this probably isn't the time to do that. Remember ~ the BS is a "burn victim". If you were visiting him in the hospital after a serious accident, would you expect your needs to be met then? Or would you have compassion and understand that he probably can't be affectionate, can't meet your need for conversation and DS and FS because he's been INJURED.

Expecting a BS to meet your needs is the virtually the same thing. You are expecting too much from a severely injured person and really, it's kind of absurd if you think about it this way.

MarriedForever: I think the one thing you're missing here is that many WS's had to go without their needs being met for a very long time before they had an A. Having an A is a very bad way to deal with unmet needs, granted, but the fact that needs were not being met by the BS prior to the A is still a problem. I think most WS's need some sort of reason to believe that their BS will be willing to meet those needs in the future, or the M will simply continue to exist under the same circumstances that led to the A in the first place, and no one wins in a situation like that. If WPG's H wasn't meeting her EN's prior to the A and isn't attempting to meet any of them now, what reason does she have to believe that he will ever meet them in the future?

Add the first two up and it may sound childish to you but it doesn�t to me at all.

The day I decided to withdraw from the �Self-Loathing Doormat� infidelity recovery program I was driving myself to be voluntarily admitted to a psychiatric unit.

I do not exaggerate.

I figured it was time to get proactive. We closed the door on the subject, and I enrolled in the �Rhetoric Aside, Why Did I Really Have an Affair� program. I�ve about completed that one, and am making preparations to enter the �Figure Out What I Need and How to Communicate it Effectively� program, which, you will notice is a two part course. I�m going to have to teach that course to my H, so I need to have it down.

Taking charge of recovery? You bet. Someone has to do it. Seems like that�s my job, not his.

I�m done being scared.

AHHHHHHH!!! OMG, seriously??? I don't even know where to start with this, I'm sure my brain is working way faster than I can possibly type here but here goes:

Guess what? The BSs needs weren't being met for a very, very long time EITHER. And to top it off, we KNEW a bad way to handle getting our needs met was to have an A. What does that have to do with anything NOW???

Ohhhh...wait, I see...the FWS wasn't getting their needs met before the A (you know, when the BS probably wasn't getting their needs met EITHER) ~ then the WS decides to have an A, add a few ginormous LBers in there, like dishonesty, IBs, having SF with someone else, badmouthing the BS to an OP, lie some more, betray, and ad nauseum to every other LBer an A demands.

So to top off not meeting the BSs needs, the WS decides to emotionally slaughter the BS to add insult to injury.

ARGH. Your argument is asinine. NO ONE was getting their needs met, the BS is now injured at the hands of the person he thought was going to protect, cherish and love him more than anyone else in the WORLD, and the FWS wants to complain that the BS just being here, being willing to try to recover, isn't enough and wants to whine about not getting needs met???

I'm seeing red.