Last night, my fiancee chewed me out for rolling my eyes at him while he tried to explain to me why he got three tickets in the last two weeks. First of all, I didn't roll my eyes, I was just trying to watch our movie. When I told him I didn't roll my eyes, and that if I did, I didn't intend to, he went ballistic on me for interrupting him. Than he started talking down to me, calling me an idiot and stupid and a [censored]. I got up out of bed and walked to the front room to get away from him. As usual with all of our fights, he followed me and proceeded to blame me for making matters worse. I told him I was just trying to get away from him, but that does not seem to register in his head. He continued to call me a b---h and a c--t repeatedly, called me stupid and an idiot and crazy and insane. I honestly do not know how to subdue this kind of reaction. I asked him to move out and he told me that I am being immature and that I can't ask him to move out just because we had a fight. Am I wrong? I definately deserve better, and this is not the first time this has happened, although it has been a good month or so since I've had to deal with one of these outbursts. When I persisted that I wanted him to move out, he threatened to kill himself and then he pulled our 1 year old out of the crib and said that if I was making him move out he was going to take both of his daughters, the younger one mine, to his moms house. Of course he didn't, I locked myself in my parents room and insisted that we sleep in seperate rooms tonight. I honestly do not know how to deal with this. I want whats best for me but I can't get him to realize what he is doing to ruin everythinng. I honestly do not think I am in love with him anymore, but he insists that he will die without me. I need guidance. We are seeing our counselor next week but in the mean time I think we should stay in seperate houses. In the 3 years he and I have been together, I feel like I've aged 15.

1. You rolled your eyes. Your statement to him that "IF" you did is your confirmation that you did - it is a betrayal of yourself.

2. The two of you lack something very basic in your relationship: mutual respect. He calls you names, you walk away from him, roll your eyes at him, and believe you hold no culpability in the relationship - your post shows that you blame the relationship's problems entirely on him. The truth is that you own at least half of the problems in the relationship - whether you deny it, accept it, understand it, or NOT. You own it.

3. The name calling between the two of you is ridiculous and immature. My guess is that there was more to the story, because of the very one-sided nature of your post. To subdue name calling, simply say nothing, or respond with, "I will continue the conversation when the name calling stops," and MEAN IT. Just shut up at that point, sit, and wait him out. Adults understand this, and respond, and adults can also perform this task.......

4. The fact that this erupted to a scene where he was threatening to kill himself also tells me that there was more on your side. (I am an analyist by trade. I understand these things.)




He threatened to use the kids because it is the trump card.

HE is at his wit's end with YOU.


I wonder if you can see that?


I would strongly - very strongly - suggest that the two of you seek the books:

His Needs/ Her Needs

and

Lovebusters


Because the two of you are not meeting each other's emotional needs, and you are certainly committing Lovebusters all over the place.


On both sides.



Next, the idea that you are no longer in love means that you are not giving in the relationship. Check out "givers and takers" on this website. Read it.


I think if you started reading the two books - and the two of you began meeting the emotional needs of each other


you might have a very different take on your relationship.



Finally,

I am not so keen on the idea of living together. You have one foot out the door. For a reason. You lack the committment bone.



SB

He's a drug addict who curses at you and guilt trips you? I have to disagree with the response above. Normal people don't launch in to tirades over an eye roll, and IMHO he should be apologizing for those tickets, not trying to make excuses for them. This guy needs to get his stuff together before he can ever be a good husband or a good father. You do deserve better, and so do the kids.

Dr. Harley's usual course of business, if you aren't cheating on your spouse and have not done so (important "if"!) is that you should separate from the person engaging in angry outbursts then negotiate your return based on:
1. That he take anger management courses and learn to control his angry outbursts to negotiate fairly with you,
2. If there is an addiction in place, that the addiction be taken care of.

You can't negotiate fairly against the threat of violence or the POJA-crushing weight of an addiction. It is in these cases that separation is often recommended in order to negotiate an end to the addiction and/or angry outbursts before attempting to recover.

I'm missing some of the details, though, since this is separate from any other thread you may have started. Truthfully, since he's your fiancee rather than husband, I strongly doubt you have a compelling case to work this out together; you might be better off with someone who is committed to fair negotiation, meeting your needs (Care), avoiding behavior that makes you miserable (Protection), maintaining love by giving you his undivided attention (Time), and telling you everything he knows about himself (Honesty).

What anoni-mouse said, x 2. Trapped, I've read your other thread. There are people from certain subcultures who think it's OK to treat "loved ones" like he's treating you, but those aren't subcultures you want yourself or your children to be any part of. The guy isn't committed to you, he's committed to drugs & excuses for his poor behavior & poor choices. Threatening to kill himself? Threatening to run home to his mommy?

Take YOUR kids and get as far away from this man as you can as fast as you can. Respect yourself. Respect your children enough to save them from this person. Until he is clean, until he grows up and recognizes that spouting vulgar epithets at one another is not how decent people relate, he is no good to you or your kids. It's tough luck for his older child, but by staying with him, you won't save her, you'll only lose yourself & your own children all for nothing. You've tried the approach of accommodating his poor behavior already. "Stupid" is trying the same thing in the same conditions & expecting a different result than the result you've already been getting.

After he's been clean 5 years, maybe you can talk, but I wouldn't wait around for it.

righttttt


like I said, there WAS more to the story.


Like the drug part wasn't in this post.



Leave. You aren't married anyway. And you didn't commit to him for a reason.


Like..........you know why, and knew that when you walked in the door. Walk out the same way.

Get the books anyway. Next time you decide you are "in love", maybe you will have a plan for how to "be in love".

Oh...there's a book for that too. It's called, "Fall in Love, Stay in Love". Same author, BTW.


The website is MARRIAGE BUILDERS.

Thankyou all for your input. Despite that I have asked him to leave, he still refuses. He broke into my father's room and tried to have sex with me last night because he thought that would end all of our troubles. It doesn't, obviously. The main reason I am torn between working it out or leaving him is that he is a partially recovering addict. He has been clean from Heroin for over 10 months now. But he still smokes pot and drinks four beers a day and insists that its normal and its okay for him to drink like that because of the nature of his job. I have been a hypocrite up til about six weeks ago, when I myself was smoking pot. I do not have a problem with it but I do believe that it is this codependency on the drug that keeps me addicted to him. He is an addiction that I want to beat though, so I gave up the pot. I rarely drink since I became a full time mother to his oldest daughter, in fact I find drinking repulsive now. He insists that he is in control despite how much he drinks, and when I asked him to cut down he insisted that it wasn't a problem, but now it seems like he is drinking even more. We don't have health insurance, so he cannot really go to see a doctor, but I do believe he suffers from bi-polar tendencies. His behavior has put me in a mental state where I have to take anti-depressants now to keep myself from crying all day. I cry even on the days where he has done nothing wrong.

I have more questions, any one that can answer them will help me a great deal.

I do not have a job yet, but I graduate with a bachelors degree in December this year. I've had several call backs but I am unable to take the job because of the hours that they require me to be there, due to my school work I am unable to handle it.

My intentions are possibly to take my daughter with me to Memphis where I can stay with my mother long enough for him to move out of my parents house. My question is, is that legal? She is his daughter as well and I don't want to be charged with kidnapping.

My other dilemma that I am not proud of is that we live with my father and my parents are non-confrontational, although I haven't yet told them about Jon's past addiction to opiates. Jennifer his oldest, is going to school down the street from here. His only place of refuge, if he did move out, would be his mother's house in Grapevine, a good 45 minutes away from here. His methadone Clinic is in Fort Worth. Every morning he has to drive to Fort Worth to get his meds, than he drives an hour and a half to get to work. If he moves to Grapevine, this will increase his drive time every morning considerably.

I want to seperate from him, but I also want to help continue his treatment so that he can stay clean.

His entire life is unfortunately dependent on the help he gets from me and my parents. I know we need to stop enabling him, but at the same time I fear that he will turn for the worst when I do leave him. I am so scared that he will hurt himself now due to the threats he has made the last few times I've asked him to move out.

My next agenda is that I need a seperation plan. I am sure you probably think that I am an idiot for staying with him all this time, but rest assured, I know that I'm an idiot. I've only had two serious relationships in my life, this one being my second, and it was the biggest education I think I will ever get, considering the total mess I have made for myself.

When I met him, he had told me that he went to college and took a few classes. I did not find out til after I was pregnant with Katie, a year and a half later, that he was expelled from High School in California. I found out when Katie was 3 months old, and on the day that we buried my grandmother, that he was using heroin. He got clean immediately and I know he thinks he is doing his best to improve our situation. In several ways he is by going back to work. But I quite simply do not want anything to do with the drug subculture anymore or the angry outbursts. I have been reading Love Busters, and it confirms everything I've been trying to explain to him since we first started having problems.

Also, he insisted that if I lie to the counselor about my wants and needs from him, he is going to get up and leave. The problem is that I am not lieing, and these needs are genuinely what I want met. I understand that he doesn't want to lose his family, and I know this is going to hurt him a great deal, but I want what is best for me and my daughter, and I do believe that living a life seperate from him is the best solution. I just don't know how to convince him of that, considering everything that comes out of my mouth is "a lie" in his opinion. I wish I could know concretely how to do what needs to be done. How to get away from him when his entire life is completely dependent on me and my family.

You remain there because it works for YOU.

The truth is, you will remain there until it no longer works for YOU.


You are using him as much as he is using you.


When you come to understand that part of the cycle, you will be able to break it.


Schoolbus

My story in an abusive relationship:

I was involved with a man who beat me. He was also an alcoholic, who drank a minimum of a six-pack a day, after work, every day. I was involved with this guy for three years, off and on (more on than off), because

I chose to be.

At the time, you would hear me say many of the things you are saying.

"He needs me"
"He will commit suicide if I leave"
"He calls me names"
"He gets very angry if I do (or say, or go)..... fill in the blank"
"I can't tell my parents ________ about him"
"My friends don't really know the whole truth"
"I can't leave because of the current situation, but in a month or so I can"
"He has stopped doing ________, so that is better, but he won't be able to do _________ unless I stay"



So much of what you say is a distant echo of the words and thoughts I had and used to keep me

stuck?

with him.


I was NOT stuck.

The absolute truth was: I could walk out the door at any moment I chose. I chose NOT TO DO IT. I made many "reasons" for why I couldn't.

So. Do. You.


You are not married to him. There are no laws which would govern you going to California or Tennessee or New York with that child, because you are not married. There is nobody at the border of Texas stopping people and asking, "Are you legally divorced? Is the father here in the car giving permission to go to Memphis?"


I look at your situation and wonder:

Why doesn't this lady move out of that place, in with some friends until the end of the college semester, and finish her degree? Then, she can go to her parents' house, and move forward into her future without this guy.

Don't leave a forwarding address, and change the daycare center for your child.

On the day you move out, take HIS daughter over to her grandma. Tell his mom what has happened, that he threatened suicide, that his anger level and pot-smoking lifestyle isn't for you anymore. Tell her that you have

CHOSEN

to walk away from pot, drugs, alcohol, and all the rest, and the fact is

that he keeps you anchored THERE.

And you must weigh anchor to save your daughter, his daughter, yourself


and with any luck at all


maybe his mom can save HIM. But for now, you are out of the picture, and you are leaving the child in the one place where you know she is loved and at least safe from the pot-smoking mess with him.


Then, go to where you have already arranged for yourself and your daughter to live, finish school, and


DO. NOT. LOOK. BACK.


Because if you do, you will be in an off-again, on-again relationship with this man

and believe me,

it ends badly.


Been there, done that, got the damage to prove it.



Go back through your post and find every excuse or reason you wrote why you "can't" leave. Then, figure out why you are CHOOSING not to leave. Because every "reason" you state has a huge and gaping hole in it. I see through every one.

This is your choice. It truly, truly is.


Schoolbus

Thankyou Schoolbus, you do not know how much I appreciate your wisdom more than you know. I think that is exactly what I am going to do, I just need to get the motivation to do it. Is it appropriate to write him a note and explain to him the same things I've explained to him all this time? Because I've tried breaking up the right way, and it simply doesn't go the way a break up normally should. I think having to do it the "cowardly" way, is going to be my only saving grace.

Your kids need to above all be safe and if he broke into a room and had his way w/you, then he raped you right?

What is ok with this situation? What is all right with this? You don't have to be married to get a r.o against him ok. And you need to stand up for your kids.

Time to be the grown up and put any residual lovey dovey thoughts aside. This man is abusive and is an addict. Neither marrige or daddy material. And you also have a very destructive relationship with him w/the name calling, eye rolling, arguement provoking.

Work on you and do all you can to be a good mom. Love will be there when you heal and are healthy. Right now be a healthy mom and put your child and your safety first.

trapped,

There is no cowardly way to leave, IMHO. There is only the right way.


Cowards STAY. Cowards stay because they do not want to expose their own mistakes, they do not want to admit that they contributed to the state of the relationship, and they don't want to face what they must do next:

rely on themselves to face the world.

This will be the hard part, because you know exactly where you are broken, and you know that you will want to go back to what you "know". You will want to go back because it is easy - not because it is right, or because it will be better, or because it is safe

but because it is what you know.

There are some questions to ask yourself:

What would you do with your life if you were in a relationship with a NORMAL guy? Could you deal with a life that did NOT have all of this drama? Consider the answer seriously, because you must understand that part of you relies on the neediness of this man FOR A REASON. You need to understand this part of you, and get rid of it, before you consider even dating another man. It is a part of you that makes for a very bad connection, and what makes you choose men who are needy.

Do you truly understand the difference between pity and love? The reason I ask is because in some ways you are crossing the lines with this current man - and this comes in the form of codependency with his addiction. Get help, seek out the Al-Anon groups near you to understand what you are doing with this.

Do you have clarity when it comes to what you need to feel loved? I don't think so, and I also don't think you have time for that right now. The Emotional Needs part of a relationship is important. When you are out of school, I would encourage you to start there, on this website, and learn about these concepts. Mostly, understand your own, and then think about dating.




Get a plan in place. Do NOT share it with your boyfriend. When you are ready to leave, then you take his daughter to his mother and tell her what is happening. You leave that very day.

Leave him a letter that is kind and loving. There is no need to be hateful. Next post for what I would say.

Dear Boyfriend,

It is hard for me to tell you what I have to say, but still I have to say it. Our relationship began with us in love, and throughout we have worked very hard to be there for each other. They say love is unconditional, and I know that I have loved you unconditionally, and I do still love you.

But while love may be unconditional, relationships ARE conditional. Relationships need to be nurtured, and it takes much more than just a basic sense of love or feeling to keep them together. For "us" to work, too many changes would have to take place - changes that I would have to make, and changes that you would have to make - things that neither of us could ever maintain and still remain true to ourselves.

I had to make some decisions that were very hard for me. I have decided to alter my life in a major way. My plans include stopping drinking, stopping drugs, and beginning my career after college with our daughter in a life that will allow her to thrive with a mother who is able to focus on her, and give her a future with a stability. That life doesn't include me trying to maintain and stablize a relationship with a man that I find I am not emotionally prepared to marry. I've discovered a part of me that tells me that I know that our relationship will not go forward into marriage, because the conditions within me and also within the relationship are not right for it. I am not ready for this kind of relationship, and need to back up a bit, go home, and start over so that I can get things right this time. I am telling my parents about the changes, and know I will have their support - something I have needed but couldn't see, for a long time now.

I've made this decision not because of you, but because I have made changes within myself, and for myself. I have made choices that I hope will improve my life, and the future of our daughter.

I wish you well in your life, Boyfriend. I honor the changes you have made, especially in getting clean and in working toward your goals in that regard. You, of all people, must understand that now I have to make similar choices for myself.

I have dropped older daughter off with your Mom, and also have talked to her about what I'm doing, and why. I offer you only my best, and will say a prayer for you, DD, and your family. I know this will be hard for you, as it will also be hard for me. Please know that the future holds great things for you, if you choose them. I know you will.



trapped

Schoolbus, I would love to hear from you. Since your last input, I took everything you said to heart, and I did what was best for me and my daughter, and I moved out while he was at work. My only regret is that I didn't say goodbye to Jenny, his older daughter and she is very hurt by this gesture. Is there anything I should expect from him and his family? His sister is very angry with me, and she herself is being a hypocrite by saying some of the things she is saying to me. I've only been gone for a day, but I've never actually broken off a relationship like this, and I have no guidance on how to really handle it from here. He is convinced that he will be able to win me back and he wants to talk to me. I texted him, because I honestly was so emotional at the time that I couldn't talk to him. My main priority is making custody arrangements as quickly as possible so that he can see his daughter. He may be a "[censored] up", but I do not want to deny him a right to see his little girl. Other than that, I do not wish to speak to him about a possible reconciliation until we have officialized the custody papers in court. Anything you can tell me to guide me through this is much appreciated.

Sincerely
No Longer Trapped

No Longer Trapped,

I think you did the right thing to leave.

The things you need to "worry" about?

1. Your daughter. She should be priority number one in your life, and not this drama being played out between the two of you. The focus in your life should not be, and never should be again, "getting a boyfriend", "needing a man", "wanting a date", "looking for a guy", or anything along those lines. Your priority is your child. Period. This level of selfishness requires a zoom-lens in your head. PUT IT THERE.

2. When I spoke in #1 about not looking for a man, what I mean is that you need to be able to understand why you chose THIS man before you can even begin to consider choosing any other man - and this will take you at least a year to begin to understand. That is IF you do some real work! Your idea of "love" in this case was merely someone who was ready to move in...you weren't ready for that, really, were you? He kind of came in where you were, you weren't ready, it wasn't PLANNED. Yet, there you were, and next thing you knew you had two kids. Your approach to life needs to be more PLANNED - and this means you need to understand your own

control

in your life.

You do not even begin to understand this concept yet. Your first post (read it again...) places so much blame on your BF. Yet, you had all the control to change the entire situation. Proof? You just did!

3. Your next focus needs to be finishing your degree. You have only a few weeks, and you are THERE! Congratulations! Do that. Do not take your eye off that prize, regardless of what the boyfriend does.

4. You need to change your phone number. Today. Yesterday. Change it, and stop the drama. The fact is that there is a part of you that FEEDS this drama, and also you rely on it for some emotional fulfillment. I can say this, because I have LIVED IT. The emotional fulfillment comes at the point where you reconcile with him - when you feel like things are back to some sort of "normal", like you have rescued him, or when you think that this relationship may in fact have some sort of normal future = that fulfillment comes after the fighting is over, when he and you both settle down, and you are able to once again feel like you are sort of starting over with him. Because, he promises that you are starting over. (which you are, only you are just really starting this crazy CYCLE all over!!!!)

This relationship DOES NOT HAVE A NORMAL FUTURE. That concept is a fantasy, because the situation you "were" in was not a relationship based on the concepts of:

-mutual trust
-mutual respect
-honesty
-openness
-joint agreement
-meeting of one another's emotional needs because you both WANTED to
-lack of lovebusting
-lack of disrespectful judgements

Furthermore, that relationship has the very strong foundation of drug abuse, compounded by his secrecy regarding that, and his desire to continue this behavior. This is not a situation for you, your daughter, nor for the "future" in any sense of a relationship.

Change your phone number, do not talk to him, and do not talk to his friends, his sister, or anybody else.

This will be difficult.

I know.

I lived it.

I DID IT.


By the third day, there was a beautiful feeling about me. Like my life had become.............


MY OWN.


The thing was???


It always had been. I had just CHOSEN to hand it over to someone who was not trustworthy with my heart.



Take your life back.


And No Longer Trapped - NEVER LOOK BACK, NEVER REGRET WALKING AWAY FROM A TERRIBLE MISTAKE.

You can only correct a mistake by recognizing it

and FIXING IT.

In this case, you are doing that. Do not let anyone tell you differently, because you KNOW everything I have said is the truth.



Get a good friend to call, and whenever you think you might even consider contacting that old boyfriend, call that good friend instead. Do not call that Boyfriend again. Just don't. You are DONE.


Regarding custody? You were never married. It doesn't have to go to a court, unless HE FILES SOMETHING.

Let him do the legwork on that. For now........stay still, calm, and remote from him.

Let the dust settle, let him calm down, and let this thing rest.



AND ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT WITH HIM.


PLUS, IF HE WANTS TO VISIT HIS DAUGHTER, I WOULD MAKE SURE IT WAS IN A PUBLIC RESTAURANT, WITH SUPERVISION - AND THE SUPERVISORS WOULD BE TWO VERY LARGE MEN. I would sit at another table, he could visit with the men and the daughter at another.


SB



SB

So its been a successful one week since I left him. Your support means so much to me and I hope I can continue to use this medium to speak with you all.

He realizes that he needs to change, and he has moved out of the house so that I can move back in. He also realized that he is not capable of taking care of Jennifer by himself, she is his 9 year old, so he and I have made arrangements for her to live with me while I continue to take her to school and pick her up.

I saw him on Saturday and he got to see Katie for a couple of hours. The whole time he was trying to convince me not to file for custody. I initially agreed not to, but when I spoke with my family, we all agreed that it was the smart thing to do, so I am still going to file. My attorney however told me she would have papers to me by Monday. Than it was Tuesday, and now its Friday so I am getting a little weary about whether or not I should continue to retain her.

On the other note, he calls me about three times a day to check in on the girls which I really don't mind. But than he wants to talk about other stuff, what he can do to win me back, etc...

I have no desire reconcile with this man, and my family has pretty much forbid it. Without them I do not know what I would do. I've been an idiot for so long I think I need them to think for me. Sad isn't it?

He calls me in the middle of the day to tell me how much he misses me and the girls and how he can't stop thinking of me. This makes me uncomfortable and I've asked him to stop but he cannot help himself. I have physical possession of his older daughter though, so I know communication is necessary so that we may maintain peace. I am so antsy for him to be served with papers, so maybe then he will realize the seriousness of the situation, and maybe he will stop calling me to reconcile. I don't know what will happen once he gets served, but I really hope it is soon so I won't have to keep up this charade of not filing against him. I'm just so nervous. At the same time I am completely at peace with him not living here anymore, and his older daughter Jennifer is at peace as well, she said the last couple of days have been wonderful.

I have assured him that I have no desire to seek out another man, but that I also have no desire to reconcile with him although he keeps alluding to a future reconciliation once he cleans up his act. I do not want to promise him this and I've been avoiding it as much as possible. I am still very concerned for him, and I've been through the other end of the break up before with a man before him, so I definately understand how much pain he is in. Not talking to my last ex was the most painful thing in the world for me so I can only imagine what Jon is going through with me. I've asked him to quit drinking, quit smoking pot, continue his recovery, and to seek out counseling and anger management classes in addition to obtaining his drivers license. I only hope that he will be served soon so that we can move on from there. As of now he is convinced that I will not file, but I really feel like I have no choice and that it is the best thing to do. The holidays are coming up and we have been discussing how we are going to split it up with Katie, but as I've told my attorney I am not comfortable with any of this until I've obtained a court order stipulating the custody arrangement between Jon and I for Katie. I am very nervous and I feel like my plan is going to back fire.

TiL-

I am not sure if it is wise for you to have contact with him, but if you are, you need to keep the conversation only about the girls.

When he asks what he can do to win you back, don't give him an answer with ANY thing he "needs" to do because then he isn't really doing it to make himself better. He is doing it to "get you back". It isn't sincere.

And it won't last.

HE needs to be the one who decides what HE is going to do to clean up his life, whether or not he wins you back, and then he needs to do it, for the rest of his life-regardless of whether you are part of his life or not.

You can't fix him.

So we've been seperated for ten days. I feel wonderful and I have no desire to return.
I filed for custody with a new attorney on Wednesday and I just told him about it today, I wanted to wait til after he got his possessions out of my house before I told him. He got very angry with me when I did, and he swears up and down that he will fight it in court because the petition does not grant 50/50 custody. Instead of fighting me in court, which will cost a lot of money, I would think he would just agree to the standard agreement. It will not cost him a dime, and now he is angry with me because instead of working on getting his drivers license back, he will have to spend his money fighting this in court. I am curious how long this will take, my attorney is charging me 500 a month if this case is still contested. Given that the judge grants a judgement in my favor, can he seriously appeal it over and over and over again? I can't imagine that his mother would honestly front him ten grande to contest this in court, especially when she wouldn't front him 3500 to get his license reinstated. I am seriously worried, and I hope he doesn't actually fight this, and I hope his attorney will advise him against it, because the evidence in my favor is compellingly against him. I really hope he is just making empty threats, I can't see him winning this case.

No Longer Trapped

No. Once the Judge makes an order, your ex CAN go back and ask for a modification, BUT there will have to be a significant change in the circumstances before a Judge will consider modifying anything. Most Judges won't go back on their initial rulings unless something drastic were to happen (i.e., you suddenly become an unfit mother and he becomes father of the year). In other words, ain't gonna happen.

Once he gets an attorney and you DO want him to get one, have your attorney reach out to his about resolving this.

Are you and his mother on good terms?

Unfortunately his mother and I are not on the best of terms. See..Jon's father was a serious alcoholic/ drug addict and he burned their house down and put her through hell, so she thinks that the crap her son put me through is kitty stuff and that I am overly dramatic. She is barely speaking to me, suffice to say the nicest thing she had to say to me was, "I don't give a damn about you, and quit pretending you had to run away to get away from the fighting. Its pathetic. All I care about is Jon, Jenny, and Katie. You seriously need to get back on your anti-depressants."

I'm a little insulted by that simply because I have been on my anti-depressants for the last two months. Also, my counselor I have been speaking with has advised me to see my doctor again, and talk about weening me off of them, cause we're pretty certain it was my home life with Jon that caused me to be so depressed, and it shouldn't be hard for me to ween off of them considering I'm already on a very low dose of prozac.

Thats good to know that he is blowing smoke up my butt when he threatens to appeal it over and over again. I am just nervous I guess. I am not sure what is admissable in court or if I'll even have to go to court. I know I am ten times the mother than he is a father though, I just hope I can get the judge to see that when he pulls up my ex's criminal history.

Trapped,

His mother has obviously enabled your EX's behavior for a very long time. She justifies what she has done (or failed to do) in his life by saying:

"Look at what I'M going through. My situation trumps yours, so I have the right to treat everyone else like crap. Just ask JON."

She has treated her son miserably, and used this excuse to be who she is. She isn't on your side, so do not call or write or contact her anymore. She isn't worth the effort. When you are past the fog of being in this relationship, you will see this so CLEARLY you will not believe it.


Every day your life will be better.

Regarding the legal stuff? Let the lawyer handle it.

Regarding the X calling you about the children? Tell him that you would appreciate fewer calls. He is NOT calling to check on them. He is calling to get a fix of YOU. Make that very clear in your mind.

Tell him that he is allowed to call and talk to the GIRLS after they are home from school. ONE CALL.

And that since the two of you are no longer a couple, he must not depend on you for emotional support. As hard as this is for you to say, he needs to hear it. Because every time you give him that support

he believes

you will let him come back.



Stop that behavior now.


The fact is that your emotional well-being is not supported INSIDE that relationship. You cannot continue to be anchored to him

because when he calls?

YOU are also leaning on him. Believe it.


It is the first step on the WRONG PATH. You will end up going back and forth and back and forth with him.


Stop it now.


One call a day - after school.
You will call him if there is a NEED or EMERGENCY.
YOU do NOT talk with him about ANYTHING.

You just don't need to anymore. It. Is. Over.


SB

Oh, and stop worrying about his:

driver's license
mom
job
self-help skills

or any of that.

You are not, and never have been, his keeper.

He is a grown man who needs to take care of his own self - and YOU need to be watching your own garden grow.


SB

Thankyou, I feel much more rest assured. I just have to quit panicking and trust my lawyer. I am half tempted to tell him to take Jennifer back and take her to school every morning, considering he is telling me that there isn't a judge in Texas that will seperate Jennifer from her sister. The thing is, I'm the one taking care of both of them, but if he's going to tell the judge that he's taking care of Jennifer, maybe he should be the one taking care of her. I dunno, I really think Jenny is happier since he moved out, she's certainly had much fewer emotional outbursts. Thankyou Schoolbus, I love hearing from you, you have truelly inspired me to get out of that crappy situation. I feel so wonderful since I've gotten away. And no I will not be looking for another man for quite some time because I am very very very happy being on my own for now. My daughter is more than enough to live for.

X's&O's
No Longer Trapped

I am very upset now. Jon spoke with his lawyer, and his lawyer advised him to pull Jennifer out of her school and transfer her to a more local school next to him. As much as this upset me, it upset me even more when I went up to the school to say goodbye to her after her school bell let out. I gave her a hug and I told her goodbye and I let her know that no matter what her father and grandmother told her, I wanted her to know that she is very much loved and that I would give nearly anything to keep her here. As I dropped her off at her fathers car, he started yelling at me and calling me a [censored] in front of her and he told her that it wasn't just him that I was leaving, that I wanted both of them to go. This frustrates me so badly because it is so far from the truth it makes me sick. I met up with them back at my house a few minutes later because Jenny wanted to get some more of her stuff. We got to have a small talk before she left, and I let her know that by staying with Daddy, I would only be teaching her that it was okay for men to talk to women the way that her father talked to me. She rebuttled and told me that the only reason her daddy acted that way was because of all the work he had done on the house and how we were so ungreatful. I let her know that no matter what the circumstances, it is never okay for any man to talk to her that way, and there is no excuse for the way her dad had talked to me. I emphasized again how much I loved her and how I would do everything I could to make things right, and that she was always welcome to come back to the house and that the room would always be hers. She left a few seconds later, the entire time her father was calling me an ingrate and a [censored] and that I was going to go to hell for being nothing but a homewrecker. I can't wait to be rid of him.

All this stemmed from him speaking to his lawyer after I filed for custody and supposedly this is supposed to be his last trip to the house. At least I know now that with him taking care of Jennifer, there is no longer a need for me to communicate with me, but through our lawyers. So depressed right now, but I know I've done the right thing, I only pray that he doesn't ruin his eldest, and I really hope that she listens to me and she knows that she is loved.

There is a fascinating thing that I know about children.


They always remember the place that felt the safest to them, and they always know that person who was the one who told the truth.


Sometimes adults place kids into situations where they have to pledge loyalty to whoever has them

only because they have no control over their own lives

and they do not want to hurt the feelings of a parent

even when that parent has been horrible to them.


As a child raised in a very abusive home, I can say that I always knew the truth of my life. I was not able to confront anyone, especially my dad, because HE HELD THE POWER of my world in his hands.

They won't risk it unless it is life or death. Sadly enough, the consequences of what the adults in power do are often far-reaching and long-term. I see it every day.

Jenny will stand by her dad, and he will paint you to be the most horrible person in the world for leaving "them".


Sooner or later, your words will ring in her head, as he or another man say or do things that she knows are wrong.

They will ring loudly. And in that moment YOU will be the one she follows.

Because you set the example, told her what you were doing and why, and you stuck to it. Children do not forget being loved.


Don't for a moment believe otherwise. She saw your strength, in the face of her own father's panic and anger.


You have done the right thing - the only thing - you could do.


Focus now on your daughter - the person at your side. Help her to get through this, and to understand what peace there can be in strength, determination, and the willingness to stand up for yourself.


You have a daughter to teach, and she is watching.

Everything.


SB

chiming in...i just want to thank you for that schoolbus. funny but i needed to hear it in this moment. trapped, i wish you the best, you are going to make it.

It totally feels like I am being harassed right now. I cannot change my phone number due to several employers calling me back about job interviews. He keeps leaving me voicemails telling me to quit talking to his family, some of which have actually gone out of their way to talk to me. He says he's going to subpoena the entire family and that they will testify that they never saw him being mentally or verbally abusive against me. I am so frustrated with this whole mess. I'm waiting to hear back from my lawyer in regards to whether or not I have to keep contact with him. He keeps leaving voicemails about me and my "f**ked" up family. In all honesty I think his family is more messed up than mine, my family never got involved with the drug culture, his family snorted cocaine up their nose and did acid and all those other crazy barbituates that make a person go crazy. He's already informed me that he is not going to sign the waiver that keeps him from getting served.

He took Jennifer away from me, and even though he is not taking care of her, she is now staying with her mother's parents while they take her to school for the rest of the term. He has forbidden me from seeing her or speaking to her, which frustrates me because I've been making every accomodation up til now to allow him to see Katie. I realize that legally he can do this because Jennifer is not my daughter, but I do not know if I'm legally allowed to withold visitation from Katie until this goes to court. He is becoming increasingly more hostile and he's got it in his mind that I am the one trying to seperate Katie and Jennifer, which is not the case. I flat out refuse to live with him anymore and that is the truth. God only knows what he's told Jennifer. He keeps saying that he's only telling her the truth, but its his version of the truth which is what infuriates me so badly, I wish he would just tell her that it is between me and him. Its hard to be an adult around someone that acts like this. I've quit answering his phone calls, and he's making threats to come and get Katie while I am at school. Only two more weeks and I will be finished. I'm so bummed right now, it feels like the longer this takes to go to court the more opportunity there is to make mistakes. I am trying to save all the voice mails but my voice mail box is getting full now. Any ideas?

Trapped in a whole new ordeal

I am much more relieved now. I spoke with my lawyer, and she is issuing a citation for a temporary restraining order so that he can no longer harrass me by telephone. Phew! I just have one other question right now if anybody knows what I am talking about. Jon called me from his cell phone telling me that he wasn't going to let me seperate the girls even though it was so obviously what I was trying to do...according to him or course. And after he stopped talking, I heard him speaking with his lawyer for a minute or two although I couldn't really make out the entire conversation. Do you think his lawyer set that up so that they could intimidate me or do you think Jon unintentionally forgot to hangup? Not really sure what to make of it.

Sounds like a set up to me, only he thought he clicked you off and he blew it. Make a note of this call, date, time, for your records.




You need to understand that he is probably recording all of his calls to you. Whenever you talk to him, make sure you keep what you say to an absolute minimum. For example, if he starts in about how you want to keep the girls separated, you should respond "that is not true" and LEAVE IT at that. He is trying to draw you into saying things that would be bad if heard in court. Say nothing to him unless it is absolutely necessary. When he calls and you have to talk to him, if he goes off on a rant, tell him that he is being "verbally abusive" and you will hang up if he continues.

Then, HANG UP if he continues. Don't say a word, not good-bye, no arguing, simply remain completely calm in what you say. Do not raise your voice, offer information about what you think of him or his family, NOTHING. Pretend he is a salesman calling you, and when you are offended, say so - then the warning, "I will hang up if you continue being abusive in your language". And hang up if he goes on.




Keep the voice mails, even if your box gets full. Call the phone co to see what they can do to help you move the calls onto your computer for your records. They might be able to help with that.


Do not send anything - at all - in writing to this man. His lawyer will use it against you.

If you must write anything, keep it to a minimum. NOTHING about how you feel toward him, or what's going on, none of it. Only business, and only if absolutely necessary.

Do not offer him any reasons for why you are doing anything. Do not argue with him about whether or not his family is better than yours. Those kinds of arguments are for playgrounds - you are grown up. Stop letting him bait you.


This is about YOU getting AWAY from him.

And who really cares if he subpoenas 1,000 people? It will cost him in a major way. At some point, he runs out of money, and out of friends. People will avoid him - trust me - so that he cannot drag them into this business.


Above everything else,


stop talking to him. You might have someone else listen to the voicemails before you do, and see if there is anything you NEED to know from them. Sort of like an intermediary for you.


But now, you have a lawyer. Let that person do the legal stuff, and just sit back.


You are doing fine.

Let your lawyer know all that is going on. Maybe she can download the voicemails for you...not sure if she can or not, but it never hurts to ask. If she says "no" then you are in the same place you were before you asked.

If he is taping the phonecalls, you should ask your lawyer if that is legal in your state. It isn't in mine. The person taping must let the other person know that they are doing it, and get that other person's permission. Might help.

Hang in there. You are doing a great job.

School bus, I do not know what I am feeling, but I know what I am feeling is completely wrong!

The first guy I ever slept with, Tim, turned out to be addicted to Oxi-Cotton. I didn't know this til after he and I broke up, but I remember how disgusted I was with him for the next six years because of his addiction to pain killers and getting high.

The reason I am feeling so strange right now is because I saw him tonight, and he has completely changed for the better. He doesn't smoke cigarettes, or drink, and he's so obviously actually clean from the pain killers. He's a completely different person and I found myself oddly attracted to him, even though I have spent the last six years being completely disgusted with him because I remember his actions in the past.

This oddly gave me hope for Jon, because if Tim can make me change my mind about him, than Jon can make me change my mind. And I have a daughter with Jon so our bond should be much stronger than the one I have with Tim.

My family has completely forbidden me from ever getting involved with Jon ever again, and I completely understand why and I'm pretty sure that both I and they are right.

Seeing Tim clean though and seeing his attitude towards life and his actions in general have made me question Jon's future actions. What am I feeling here? I've never been through this before and I am very inexperienced when it comes to relationships in general and break ups.

I will not by any means ever get involved with Tim again, despite my attraction to him. I love my daughter so much and she is my number one priority and my love for her trumps any physical attraction I would have for an ex boyfriend.

Just seeing him clean and having this attraction to him made me think about Jon though. I always vowed that I would never think of Tim that way again and that I was pretty much fed up with giving him chances to be in my life again. The fact that he has completely changed for the better makes me wonder what I am going to feel for Jon and the decisions I am going to force myself to make in the future if he ever does truelly get his act together. What do you think? Have you had these feelings before? I'm so confused right now and I feel like being attracted to my ex is a betrayal of myself.

No Longer Trapped

NLT,

What you are feeling is::::::

weak.


The process of breaking away from a terrible situation like you have been in has this cycle built in.

First, you have difficulty breaking away in the first place. The "reasons" are pretty much made up in your head, but serve the purpose of maintaining one thing:

what you know.


You were trapped in what you knew only because you had fear of the next step - the unknown - and what you might face or have to do in that unknown. That is what keeps people trapped! They don't want to break away from what they have become accustomed to, mainly because they fear that they will not have whatever it is that appears to give them "comfort" in the current situation. You had a level of comfort with Jon. There was a sort of "predictability" to your life, and although it was wrought with problems, it was what your life WAS - it had its sense of balance to you at times, and you worked within that situation because you reached a type of homeostasis with it. What I mean is, because it was predictable and "known", you became used to being in what was actually a very BAD situation.

It was your "normal".

Only, to the rest of the world, it really isn't normal.


The next phase of the cycle is the rise of the drama and conflict within the relationship. The two of you fought, and the fights were terrible. Or you two had conflict, and there was lots of emotion within that conflict.

The next phase was "making up", at which point you sought to re-establish that balance, and you would add in this dash of hope that things would improve.

The cycle was repeated, over and over, within your relationship:

the hope cycle, where you felt like things were going to get better, or would be great from that point forward

the balance cycle, where things were relatively calm and the two of you were doing okay

and then the conflict cycle, where things bubbled to the surface and you two were in open battle over something

then back to hope.




Right now, because the conflict cycle is beginning to settle, you are looking at the relationship once again, from the hope position.


The problem is that you MUST stop the cycle, and recognize it for what it is.


You are writing your ticket based on what you HOPE could happen. The reality is that the relationship is NOT WORTHY of your work.

PERIOD.


While the very nice thing for Tom is that he appears to have recovered,

you really need to take a different piece of information from your meeting with Tom.

You have chosen to take the information that "if Tom can do it, so can Jon".

You are wrong on this.


The piece of information I garnered???????? And so should you:


"In Trapped's history, she appears to have chosen men who have substance abuse issues. Trapped needs to do a great deal of work and figure out why she chooses men who have this tendency, and why she can operate within a relationship and not know the truth about her partner (including substance abuse for Tom, and the deep emotional problems Jon has). Trapped's message in this should be one that points her in the direction of evaluating how she gets into relationships, how quickly, how well she knows a man before she chooses him, how she must review whether or not she is doing the choosing or letting others just choose her, and finding out about what she truly desires in a man before she enters her next relationship.

Additionally, Trapped also needs to find her strength, because she is weak at this point, looking back at a relationship that did not go well and hoping it would somehow magically change into what she WANTS it to be, instead of looking at the reality of the situation."


That's what I take away from your meeting with Tom. You are still looking at this relationship with Jon through hopeful glasses.


There is no hope unless the addict chooses to address his addiction. Jon blames others, and obviously has drug issues right now. You are not in control of that. HE IS. For you, your focus should be on you and your child, because Jon has one focus in his life - himself.


He is not your dream man, nor your soulmate.


The relationship you had with him was not based on solid foundation, and you cannot go back and fix him.


Fix yourself.


You have a future. But you need to take this time in your life to focus on your personal growth - and the relationship with Jon is in direct conflict with your growth. Abandon it, because it will NEVER be worthy of the new you. NEVER.


SB

Ask yourself this question:


"What would I do in a relationship with a man who was capable of and fully willing to love me without the drama I have had in previous relationships?"

Because part of what anchors you and keeps you hung up in the past is that you "know" drama.

What would you do if you had a relationship built on:

Openness and Honesty

Meeting the emotional needs of each other

Policy of Joint Agreement in place and utilized daily

Boundaries for the prevention of intrusions by others into the relationship

A well-stocked Love Bank

A balance of Giving and Taking

An understanding of how not to commit Lovebusters and Disrespectful Judgements




What would your life be like then?


Could you thrive without all of the negative drama?

Or are you somehow addicted to the relationship because it FEEDS this drama and you find it somehow fulfilling?


Consider your life with a real man, who meets your needs, respects you, loves you, and does not need you to guide him through his daily life.



A man who stands on his own two feet, and does not need the assistance or crutch of drugs............but instead is able to live life to the fullest without them?


A man who is not emotionally broken........




Now, focus your life on making yourself worthy of a man, and a relationship, that meets the true "dream" relationship criteria.



Jon is not in that formula, Trapped.


He. Never. Was.



SB

Thankyou it was really good to hear from you. Once upon a time, I had met such a man that didn't have substance abuse problems, he treated me with respect, we got along great, and I loved him fiercely. We were the best of friends, and as of lately we've become pretty good friends again. I remember when Jon and I were always having our problems, I would always think of this man that treated me like a queen, and how Jon was so obviously nothing like him. I never truelly got over this man, and I think that is because I was in this terrible relationship with Jon.

The good news is that Jon has finally settled and has agreed to sign the papers for standard visitations.

I'm sad because the support system I thought I had, is kind of leaving. My best friend moved to Houston a year ago, and now she is moving to Colorado for a new job. My other friend moved to Vegas and then to Kansas, and she's making plans to move back to Texas, so we'll see how that works out. I am definately looking forward to her being here. My third friend is a very good influence on me, and she's very good company to keep, but she too moved away about an hour and a half from here, and with our schedules being as busy as they are, its rare that we find time to see each other, although it seems like we are avidly trying. And than my 4th friend who I love dearly...I have unfortunately out grown her. When I met Jon, I was going to the bar like five days a week with this friend. I became Jennifer's mother and my bar life came to a halt. I went from drinking five nights a week to once a month. I stopped wanting to go to the bar pretty much all together. The problem is that my friend has not grown out of this phase, so as much as I would love to enjoy her company, I really no longer can because the bar has become and still is her place of refuge.

Its sad what happened to her, because she and I have almost been kindred spirits up til three days before Katie was born. She too found out she was pregnant a few months after I found out. We gabbed and gossiped and speculated over what a great future our two little girls were going to have together. Her daughter was born three days earlier than Katie, with a condition called HIE. Its when the infant is deprived of oxygen too long and their was permanent brain damage. Although her organs regained function, her brain did not and she would remain a vegitable for the rest of her life, so her parents took her off life support 9 days later and her baby girl died. As of that day, our lives took completely different paths. Although I love her dearly, I do not want to share this life with her as long as the only place I can enjoy her company at is in a bar. Its simply not my life style anymore.

So thats my support that I was counting on. My parents are great though, they're here for me no matter what. My family is here for me too.

I've recently started volunteering at United Way and the animal shelter, so I'm hoping to make new connections with friends while I am volunteering. I plan on having a job real soon, I get my degree in a week, so I'll probably be able to meet good people through work as well.

I still have no desire to meet a man, that boat has sailed for quite some time.

Its good talking to you, thankyou for being here for me.

No Longer Trapped

NLT,


It sounds like you are looking to the future


without Jon

and this is a good thing for you and your daughter.


What you need to be careful of is that he will try to convince you of his changes. He will lie. Any changes he makes (if he even does) will be purely temporary, in order to prove something to you or others. Be careful, because addicts have a way of being charming and sucking you back into their lives....and then they suck the strength right out of you.


You are looking forward to a life that does not contain abuse - from others, or to yourself. Look at it this way: what you do to yourself you do to your daughter, good or bad. When you do something, ask yourself, "would I share this experience with my daughter"...................."would I do this if she were ten years old watching me"......................."would my daughter or parents be proud of me right now".

For now, in your life, you need two perspectives - the new perspective you are developing for yourself, and an EXTERNAL perspective. This means you need to learn to judge what you are doing against your internal measure of right and wrong, and then compare it to what OTHER PEOPLE you know to be good and strong might judge it to be.


You've been in a very strange place with Jon.

You are returning to the land of the normal, and FWIW it might seem strange here to you. You will have urges to return to the strange life

don't do it

because every day that you put between yourself and that past life makes you that much stronger, that much better.




I know this.


I have lived it.



Live each day like it is a breath of air you cannot let escape from you, and look at the past as poisoned air. Don't breathe anything from "back then". Only clean air.


SB

So Jon's been off the methadone for two weeks now. He's quit drinking alcohol, he's stopped smoking pot. He's started counseling and he's been taking anti-depressants for over a month now. I am very proud of him. Hopefully he will get his freaking license back! It doesn't matter, our relationship is over, but I would be so thrilled for him if he could get his license back. He hasn't had it in over seven years.

I have finally got a wonderful job. I really hope I get to keep it. Right now its only a 30 day temp job, but the pay is better than I could ever imagine after reentering the work force. I've been doing criminal back ground checks. Which is interesting, especially when we have to "fail" people for minor details such as traffic violations. It makes me think of Jon and all the times he's gotten into trouble, and what his criminal background must look like. Whats sad is these people only get paid 8 dollars an hour. I feel for them.

Jon has left Jennifer in my care until at least the summer. He had a new girlfriend for a while, she's actually quite pretty. He's breaking up with her because he realized that he doesn't like her like that or that he's in love with her. She's head over heals for him, she even offered to let him move in with her and that she even had a room for Jenny. Which is also odd cause at first he told me that she didn't want children. They must have had some life altering sex or she is very naive for only dating a guy for a couple of weeks and then telling him that he can move in with her.

I don't know if I mentioned in any of my earlier posts, but my leaving Jon started a chain reaction. His sister divorced her husband shortly after I left Jon. And then Jon's step father was so angry that Jon was living there, that Jon's mother is filing for a divorce now.

The two tv's that Jon took when he finally moved out of the house, Terri ended up stealing out of retaliation! I almost laughed, but I want Jon to be happy, not miserable. Those men are so stupid too. Jon banged his head repeatedly into a table to make it look like his step dad attacked him. Than Terri personally inflicted a scratch on his neck and face to make it look like Jon hit him. Than when the cops got there, the cops wouldn't take either one of them to jail because they were both fighting. LOL. I think its hilarious, they might as well have actually duked it out instead of taking it out on the furniture. Boys will be boys I guess.

Shortly after Jon met this new girl, he started saying the most horrible things about how he didn't want to be Katie's father any more and that he wanted to be free. He started making remarks and insults about my personal hygeine while I was pregnant and how I was so disgusting that he had every right to not have sex with me. He also told me that he had to do heroin and drugs on a daily basis to make himself love me because he didn't really like me from the beginning.

Oh, and the next morning, he called and acted like we were best friends and that he never said any thing like that and he just expected me to be a total sweet heart again. NUT CASE! Now he's apologized over and over and over again for all the things he said to me that he insists were not true, and were only said to hurt me.

I would say it would be easier to just not talk to him. But having children with each other obviously changes things. I feel like both he and my family are manipulating me in every way possible and I'm so sick of it.

I really hope I get to keep this job. I think my life long decisions will genuinely be my own when I can be independent and I don't have to rely on my parents to still support me. I'm really depressed right now cause I have a child of my own and I have to live with my parents to take care of her still. If this job works out that will not be the case though and I can start putting about 1000 a month away in savings while handling the rest of my bills and paying my parents rent for living here.

Wish me luck!

TIL, just curious, but how old are you?

So is your custody dispute over? How did that go? Standard visitation? Child support?