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Clark_Kent- Some days Im not sure. Sometimes I ask myself why I continue. But I Love him, I do. I want him to Love and respect me again, to be my partner and companion, contribute to our marriage and household and make me and our family his top priority. I want a marriage that does not include third parties. ConstantProcess- I could tell you all sorts of flaws in his personality and run him down, but I am afraid you will reject those observations because you are yourself convinced you aren't worth better, and you are. His personality is wonderful, its why he has so many friends and how he gets everything he wants. His character however has some holes that could use some filling. You must realize at some point that he is not ready to grow up, maybe you think he has great qualities and because you have children with him you are trapped, and its all up to you to fix it/him. You must treat him like the child he is if you want him to change his actions, but the trouble with that is, you will be the only adult in the relationship then. Our marriage was really good for a while up until his bff was killed in an accident and he completely shut out the world including me. To this day, 7 years later, he still hasnt dealt with his death. I know he also blames me for apparently causing him to doubt his abilities as a father and claims he just gave up. But this information didnt come out until after he claimed to have stopped loving me. He says now that hes leaving because I'm being controlling telling him who he can and cant be friends with. How do I demand NC with the OW without sounding controlling or demanding especially since he cant see what he is doing wrong because in his eyes its simply a platonic friendship.
Me: 31
H: 34
DD4
DD7
Together 16yrs, Married 10yrs
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@Jealousy - There you go. Looks like you might have some goals: [will] Love and respect me [will] be my partner and companion me and our family [will be] his top priority a marriage that does [will] not include third parties I believe that MarriageBuilders is the place for obtaining these goals. In order to reach your goals the following must be your manifesto. 1. You will be strong. No more doormat. 2. You will properly value yourself. 3. You will believe that you are worth being treated tenderly and with love. 4. You will no longer EVER be willing to settle for less than what you deserve. 5. You will understand what makes a great M work, so you can have one of your own, whether with WH or someone else. 6. You will understand how to protect the great M you will someday have, from this ever happening again. 7. You will be a just generally awesome person - even more awesome than you are right now.  8. You will be a warrioress that your children will always be able to look up to. You notice the above manifesto is your expectations for yourself. Not for anybody else. Just you. WILL is a strong, positive, and decisive word. Gotta love it.
Last edited by clark_kent; 11/06/10 12:59 AM.
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Jeal, Pretty interesting reply. Just some thought nuggets from me, not a full meal. H doesn't really care much about finances or debt This says a lot about how WH views his role in your family. WH is not inclined to assume a leadership role. .... and yet .... WH likes to say how much he feels "controlled" by you.
This is a manipulation game.
Here is how the game works:
You (or the family, or the kids) have a need and make a request that WH (help) meet that need.
> WH either ignores the request or postpones a decision on his part.
> The unmet/ignored/postponed need may become more immediate, which requires someone (you) to make an independent decision.
> You grow tired of waiting for WH to help solve the problem, so you make a decision. You do the best you can.
> Your decision, right or wrong, is incorrect in WH's eyes. Every time.
Because it did not include his input. Because YOU are trying to "control" him.  Passive agressive spouses are crazy-making. You know, your biggest problem is not the OW. OW could disappear tomorrow, and your marriage would not be any better. LOOK at this quote !  They sat here over 6 months before I gave up and opened them just to see how much was there. READ IT AGAIN !!!! Who doesn't pay their bills? A FREELOADER. Step one is to identify the problem at the most basic level. Can you agree that your WH is a FREELOADER? Yes? No? We can move forward with a PLAN once you have an understanding of what your obstacles are. He's been a FREELOADER for years. That is a problem. Freeloaders enjoy every love bank deposit you make. They just don't see the need to make reciprocal love bank deposits. Let me ask you this: In the last 6 months, how has WH been making love bank deposits in YOUR account. Make a list.
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A quick quote from Dr Harley's book: Buyers, Renters, & Freeloaders Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
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Who doesn't pay their bills? Someone that has always had someone take care of them for him. We have been together since we were 14/17. We went from living with parents that took care of bills to living with each other. He takes after his mother in regards to buying things for himself is more important than paying bills. I take after my mother whom always made sure bills were paid first and foremost. Step one is to identify the problem at the most basic level.
Can you agree that your WH is a FREELOADER? Yes Let me ask you this:
In the last 6 months, how has WH been making love bank deposits in YOUR account.
Make a list. He has stepped up more in the past month then the past six, in which he has been assisting with household duties, dishes, laundry and cleaning. As well as taking more responsiblity with the kids and doing more with us as a family. In the past six months (as well as much of our marriage) he compliments my looks/body, being a good mother, etc, gives me daily massages and snuggles/spoons. As well take responsiblity for many of the family dinners.
Me: 31
H: 34
DD4
DD7
Together 16yrs, Married 10yrs
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Or, is is more likely that WH will think that asking him to consider how you feel during his decision-making will be seen as another attempt to "control him" ?
POJA step one ... is asking your spouse "How would you feel about this?"
Do you think this is even remotely possible?
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No I dont want them to believe this is how married people behave, however I would like to teach them that running away from your problems rather then dealing with them is not ok either. I want to know in my heart of hearts that I did everything possible to keep this family together.  Many of our members have been in shoes similar if not the same as yours. They begin by asking questions and, with the help of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, other members point them in a direction that will solve their problem. After their problem is solved, they often stay on to help new members with their own experience, perspective, and opinion.
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Counseling Center at the top of this page. Let's get something straight; this is your life, and that of your children. If you want to recover your M, if you want to have any hope whatsoever, you need to call in the big guns. You need professional help. It is your choice to do this. If you go about things the Harley way, if it fails, you will be able to say that you tried everything, and you should no longer be in love with him. Would I do it? No. But that is me. Your life, your M, your family, your decision. You need to make big moves, and you need to make them NOW.
Last edited by HeadHeldHigh; 11/06/10 05:44 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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You are absolutely correct! He will never agree to POJA the important issues/choices in their marriage. It will not be even remotely possible! Not possible at all! How could it be, when the chorus is chiming to walk away? If a proper attempt is never made, how can there ever be a possibility? I wonder how many M's that have been recovered on this board would recover with the torrents of advice this woman has been receiving thus far? "He's not worth it, you deserve better, walk away!" Are we Marriage Building, or Marriage Breaking? 
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Jealousy, I think it is no coincidence that he started meeting some needs about a month ago. That is when you asked me for some help with MB and you implemented Plan A. You are not supposed to have expectations during Plan A, or Plan B, but it does sometimes illicit a response from the WS.
I know from off board communications that you want to continue Plan A for now. You were discussing when you should go into Plan B and you thought that it would be better to go in after Xmas as you have already told your WH that he could be there when your DDx2 wake up Xmas morning. I would say, as was suggested to me, that you go to Plan B BEFORE Xmas.
I know that not everyone agrees that you should try to save this marriage. I know that you want to try. It isn't hopeless BUT there is a lot of work that your WH would have to do to be worthy of being married to you and being a daddy to those girls.
Marriage builders isn't about marriage at all costs. I KNOW through our messages that you are ready to try something. My hope is that you will enter into Plan B and get the peace and strength that comes from doing a dark as night Plan B. You will be able to look into your children's eyes and tell them that you did EVERYTHING you could to keep their family together. You will show them strength and confidence and how they should be treated by their spouses in the future.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING  Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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You are absolutely correct! He will never agree to POJA the important issues/choices in their marriage. It will not be even remotely possible! Not possible at all! How could it be, when the chorus is chiming to walk away? If a proper attempt is never made, how can there ever be a possibility? I wonder how many M's that have been recovered on this board would recover with the torrents of advice this woman has been receiving thus far? "He's not worth it, you deserve better, walk away!" Are we Marriage Building, or Marriage Breaking? HHH, I am quite upset by you saying that the messages that Jealousy is receiving is counterproductive. I see some very GREAT posts by some HEAVY HITTERS. They are meant to be thought provoking. You know the saying about teaching a man to fish? Not all things can be spoon fed. There are some marriages that I wouldn't try to save, if it were me. I choose not to say anything about that. I will help where I can with the best advice for the posters questions at the time. HHH, what would YOUR advice be? Due to finances right now, I don't think that calling the coaching center is an option. I am loaning Jealousy the books, SAA, HNHN, LB and FIL SIL. I don't have Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. I am going to get that one too. All advce is good to hear, we don't have to follow all of it. And the posters who have given this advice on this thread, di so because that is what THEY felt. There have been MANY times when they have given BANG on advice before, it is ALL worth listening to. Sorry, I was told just yesterday that I can be quite "passionate."
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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You are absolutely correct! He will never agree to POJA the important issues/choices in their marriage. It will not be even remotely possible!
Not possible at all! How could it be, when the chorus is chiming to walk away?
If a proper attempt is never made, how can there ever be a possibility?
I wonder how many M's that have been recovered on this board would recover with the torrents of advice this woman has been receiving thus far?
"He's not worth it, you deserve better, walk away!"
Are we Marriage Building, or Marriage Breaking? We are not Marriage At All Costs, HHH. I truly hope jealousy is able to get help here. But her H IS NOT HERE. He's spending nights at his girlfriend's house and she's been bringing over their bills. He's the one who is 'marriage breaking. jealousy has brought their stich to US, we didn't go to them and instruct them to 'break' their marriage.
Last edited by maritalbliss; 11/06/10 08:55 PM.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I can't argue that there are LOTS of good posts, and LOTS of good information...
Honestly, I'm not going to single out any particular person and/or post as to what kind of set me off, but I think the answer is right there; her H is NOT here. He is not at home.
I read what is going on here, and I can't help but to think of the "Jon and Sue" story from SAA. As stated, it is an example of an A at it's worst, and a worst-case-scenario which MB principals saw through to recovery.
This situation reminds me of that in so many ways, and the very principals contained herein were what guided that horrible situation into recovery!
We know what Jealousy has been through, because SHE IS HERE, but we don't know what is going on with her H.
We can see that SHE wants to recover her M, and that is why she is here.
We've got Harleyisms being applied as to why she should just throw up her hands and walk away.
REALLY? REALLY?
I apologize for making it seem like a singling out by quoting a particular post, and even more so do I apologize directly to that poster.
So, how about we stop concentrating on how horrible her H is, and start giving her some clues as to how to recover her M.
What would I suggest? Jealousy, go out and buy SAA, and start asking questions pertaining to your take on that. Start doing your own research on this site, both through the forums and the articles, and ask your questions based on that.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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What would I suggest? Jealousy, go out and buy SAA, and start asking questions pertaining to your take on that. Start doing your own research on this site, both through the forums and the articles, and ask your questions based on that. SAA will probably not address jealousy's issues as much as the book I already suggested. (Buyer, Renters & Freeloaders.) HHH, have you read her whole thread? This man is NOT a 'typical' wayward! Have you not read her posts?
Last edited by maritalbliss; 11/06/10 09:37 PM.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I must admit that the "Divorce Him" comments are rather discouraging, but everyone has their opinions and thats fine by me. Just keep in mind I am here because I am interested in saving my marriage. If I wanted advice to divorce him I would just talk to my Dad I know I have painted a pretty poor picture of my H, he hasn't always been a selfish dink. I believe hes just in a fog or thinks hes missed out on something because we were together so young and so long. I dont think he would be on board with POJA at this time because he is not really staying here and in his head "we are not together". If things work out and he comes home, I think POJA will be something he will consider. I would like to thank everyone that has left a comment, good or bad, I really do appreciate it!
Last edited by Jealousy; 11/06/10 09:52 PM.
Me: 31
H: 34
DD4
DD7
Together 16yrs, Married 10yrs
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Honestly, I'm not going to single out any particular person and/or post as to what kind of set me off, but I think the answer is right there; her H is NOT here. He is not at home. If a poster is giving advice that is contrary to Dr. H's advice and in non-MB philosophy, you need to speak up immediately. It isn't about what 'sets you off,' okay? This isn't your website. And you're pretty new to this site, yes? Consider absorbing the content a while longer before coming out swinging with your own ideas, which may not be the ideas of the site-owner.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Or, is is more likely that WH will think that asking him to consider how you feel during his decision-making will be seen as another attempt to "control him" ?
POJA step one ... is asking your spouse "How would you feel about this?"
Do you think this is even remotely possible? Actually, I am asking legitimate questions, and I hope Jeal answers. She knows WH best. She will have an idea whether or not WH will even try POJA with her. I'd like to know if she thinks it is possible he might. If she thinks he might, then the following advice/suggestions will be about POJA. I am trying to find a leverage point in her marriage. Somewhere Jeal can be most effective.
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I dont think he would be on board with POJA at this time because he is not really staying here and in his head "we are not together". If things work out and he comes home, I think POJA will be something he will consider. Thanks ! For ! Answering ! You can POJA things even while WH is out of the house. Start out small, and develop the skill. POJA some child-related activity. Think of something that's coming up soon. Think of how you'd like to handle it. Call WH and say something like .... "I'd like your opinion about something.
I was thinking about handling (this) in the following way. (describe)
How do you feel about that?"
Then, thank him after he gives you his opinion. It's a start, anyway.
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We've got Harleyisms being applied as to why she should just throw up her hands and walk away. Do you see what you're saying, here? You're confirming what some of us are saying. We're following Dr. H's thoughts. FWIW, I think jealousy can heal her M. But her WH is going to have to be on board for that. I'm not convinced that he's anywhere near that.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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That is great advice Pepper! I will definately try starting with small things like that! One of the other things I would really like to work on is respect. Ive noticed he respects people and..ahem...women... that are strong willed and able to put him in his place so to speak. I have been a push over for so long allowing him to always have his way that if I jump right in with two feet he'll think Im just being a b!tch. I kind of did try the "in with two feet" a while ago, hence him leaving! Guess I did it wrong!! Also, is it suggested to continue to be intimate with him when in Plan A or no? **BTW as a side note you will catch me cracking jokes on occasion, its the only way I can keep my sanity! 
Last edited by Jealousy; 11/06/10 10:15 PM.
Me: 31
H: 34
DD4
DD7
Together 16yrs, Married 10yrs
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