If someone can point me to where Dr. Harley has EVER said that the FWS needs to meet the needs of the BS forever without getting ANYTHING in return, I would appreciate it.

NO ONE says forever. No one even says for years. And let's be realistic here, SOME of the FWSs needs ARE being met ~ financial support, probably some SF needs, some DS needs, etc.

Do you all see the callousness you are exhibiting here in complaining that your injured BSs aren't "meeting your needs to the extent you need them met"?

Would you all be here complaining that your BS wasn't meeting your need for FS while he is recuperating in the hospital from broken bones and a head injury?

Just because you cannot see his wounds doesn't mean they aren't there. His wounds are deep and they are severe. Cut him a break and nurse him back to health and do it without one word of complaint. It won't be forever. Patience is a virtue and it's sorely needed here.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, remember?

I've said it before and I'll saying again:

You can't recovery a M with a continuing wayward WS

You can't recover a M with a bitter BS

And as far as honey goes, we could all do with more honey at times.

And I do not see any post that says one cannot see that their BS is hurting. Extremes are not an effective means of "arguing."

Actually, it appears on this thread that these FWWs do not "get" the extent of their BHs pain. If they did they would not be saying one.stinking.word about not getting their needs met right now. They would understand that their husbands cannot possibly meet their needs when it's excruciating to just make it through each and every day.

When my H finally "got" how much pain I was in and how emotionally damaged I was is when he decided to put alllll of his needs on hold while he helped me heal. His softness is what allowed me to heal and then to WANT to meet his needs.

There is a LOT to be said for being a soft place to land when you have hurt someone the way a BS has been hurt. A.LOT.

right now I've got wayyyy too many thoughts of my own and posts and short time but, couple of things...

MarriedForever, I *get* that DH is hurting and unable to meet my needs while he is hurting. But is not telling him how I feel being dishonest? I am not talking about whining here - I get the perception - and I apologize if I am incorrect - that all FWS are whining about not getting their needs met. I do tell him about the struggles I am feeling - like the one-sided convo last night - because I'm being honest. And in last night's convo, I never once said anything about my needs. In fact, I rarely do, other than the few times I've said things such as:

"I love it when you put your arm around me."
"I love it when you hold my hand."
"I really like it when we..."

Does that constitute whining? If he doesn't respond to the statement, I continue what I'm doing, whether that's sitting beside him on the couch watching TV or whatever. By making these type of statements I am not actively LB'ing him and an following the advice that JC gave me during our coaching sessions. Yeah, if I was flouncing around pouting about it, it would be a different story and I'd agree with you that I was being a right b*tch about it.

My focus has constantly been to try and encourage DH to open up and tell me what his needs are. To let me know if I am doing a good job meeting them or if I am not. If you look at his needs, O&H is #1 - or was when we did the ENQ last time. The others were DS, FS, admiration and FC. He has not been interested in doing anything MB-related with me, including taking it again.

So, if I am not meeting his needs, then one of 2 things, as I see it. Either his ENQ is incorrect, or I'm not meeting them correctly - so I ask for his feedback. I believe that feedback is a critical part of the MB program. As TheRoad pointed out, if DH does not want to spend time with me, it is because I am not doing a good job of meeting his needs. Therefore I would assert that I need feedback from him to do so.

And, if I do not receive feedback, then I will never succeed in effectively meeting his needs; therefore, that will never motivate him to meet mine.

Stating that I am tired is not the same thing as giving up, or not sounding like someone who is willing to give it all she's got, for as long as it takes. It simply means I am tired. Some days lately I have stayed away from the forum because I am tired of thinking about it. I was spending probably 75% of my workday reading and posting here. Obsessing over it. Some days I feel like going home and reading one of my urban fiction novels instead of a marriage-helping book. Some days I just need to breathe around the ache in my chest. And some Saturdays I am just a girl who feels like being with her mommy.

Our M was not good prior to the A. That is not a justification, that is a statement of fact. Neither of us were good at meeting each other's needs. We were on a long-term crazy cycle - where we reacted to each other without love and respect. Both of us engaged in IB. If DH is unwilling to partake in any part of recovery, even just giving me a little bit of feedback - or at this point I wouldn't even care if he just screamed obscenities at me because at least he wouldn't be ignoring me - then I think it's only natural to wonder if our M will be better in the future.

I haven't even brought up the LB's that I get from DH lately, but that is an area I don't know how to handle. IB is the worst. Per JC's advice, I am not to address them until he's on-board with MB unless they are truly outrageous - but what constitutes outrageous? Because I am a WS, am I supposed to ignore the IB? This is where I get stuck with O&H. I sometimes feel like there is an opinion that the BS can LB all they want, and the WS (or, more correctly, the FWS who is repentant) has to take it. LB is a totally different subject than not getting one's ENs met. I can protect the balance in my LB$ if I am not getting needs met. But how do you protect it from continued withdrawals?

And not recognizing the difference between hurting and bitter isn't going to help recover a M either.

A person may appear "bitter" when they are overwhelmed with hurt and pain. But most people know that it's really the pain they are in that is making them appear "bitter".

And once again I am motivated to go hug my DH and tell him thank you. Apparently he is rare.

lurioosi, you aren't saying you've seen people advocating this here as a general rule, are you?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that what your H really wants from you in regard to O&H is TRANSPARENCY. There is a big difference and it's often confused. Are you being transparent with your whereabouts, who you are with, where you are going, your plans for the day? Men, in general, do not want to hear about our "feelings" and most ESPECIALLY when they are bad feelings.

Since your H won't respond to you, why not try it for a while? Try "zipping it" and keeping your feelings to yourself, except maybe your positive feelings? I have a hunch that when you share your negative feelings with him he is feeling like you are wanting him to fix that. In a good moment, when you feel like he may be opening up to you, you might want to ask him about this.


This is perfect and IMHO, the right thing to be doing. When my H was in this situation he would be affectionate and complimentary to me anyhow, even if I couldn't respond. This was a great way to "win me back".

He doesn't have SF as a need? Are you meeting this anyhow? Right now is a critical time to be meeting this need if he will allow you to do so.

Well it's a bit hard to address them at all when you yourself are engaging in IBs (shopping with your mom, for example). Your best bet is to model by example right now, IMHO.

I suggest you begin setting up "dates" for the two of you. Arrange babysitting, plan on a movie or lunch or dinner or (whatever you two like to do together). Just plan it and then tell him you've planned it and ask him to join you. Do not include your children for this because then it's easy for him to bow out. If it's just the two of you it would be harder for him to bow out.

This should be your goal every weekend. It will give you both something to look forward to and it may help break the rut you are in. No excuses, ok? UA time is critical and you are correct when you say that watching TV doesn't count.

IDK what your recovery has been like but for those of us who have been dragged through more than one FRs, lots of continued LBers (IBs, refusal to use POJA, more weak boundaries concerning members of the opposite sex even AFTER the A was discovered) and on and on, appearing "bitter" was the least of our worries and I was told by Dr. Harley himself that my resentment and bitterness were normal and EXPECTED.

Actually, MF, if you would check out my sig line, you would see that I was also a BS, long before I was a WS. Trust me, I do get it. I have felt that pain. I know how devastating it is.

I also know that there's no way I would still be married now if I had simply sat around wallowing in self pity after my WH's A. I suffered through 10 years of lying and cheating, then 3 years of withdrawal from my H, then a 6-month A of my own because I didn't follow any sort of plan to R my M after my H's A.

I have read all of WPG's H's posts. He doesn't listen to anything anyone is telling him. He doesn't take any of the advice he is being given. He is most definitely wallowing in a cesspool of self-pity, and that isn't going to get him anywhere. WPG can try as hard as she likes to meet his needs, but if he won't even let her get a fraction of one toe in the door, she has little chance of success here.

"I deserve [blank], I don't deserve [blank]"

Am I going off the bow here to say... who gives a dang what anyone does or does not deserve?

Either of these are statements of entitlement. Entitlement is governed by... who? (MB terms folks, fill in the blank)

Entitlement is what wrecked your marriage, what leads to the actions that lead up to an A.

I don't give a hoot what my FWW "deserves," I try to give her what she needs and what makes me feel good to give her.

That's the same entitled attitude carried by a particular poster earlier on.

Yes, we get it, the WS didn't have their needs met. Neither did the BS.

I didn't have my needs met for 6 years, yes I can count them and remember them. My response to this wasn't "better," but far easier to repair than an A. I withdrew.

That's why when dealing with an A, it is recovery and not repair. An A causes terrible, irreparable damage.

Yes, you can recover, yes you can have a better marital relationship, but you have scarred that with your choice.

That means that you must make a lifestyle change to guard that injury while improving your relationship. It means you have to go through a painful rehabilitation process to strengthen around that injury - to compensate for the damage, and to protect it from further damage.

That's the cost of diving in to the shallow end, folks.

markos, I wasn't talking about indefinite penance on here. I meant in general. I walked around in general life with the scarlet A showing for a very long time. Living that scarlet A actually hurt our recovery.

My DH was very hurt - crushed, and angry, and resentful, and he wasn't sure he could stand the sight of me....for awhile. And then he gradually began to be able to look up from the pain long enough to start to heal, and start to forgive, and start to move forward. He will say that even in the midst of his pain that he KNEW recovery was going to mean he had to do those things, which is why he wasn't sure he would stay. If he was going to stay....he was going to heal.

4 1/2 years out, I remember the pain, he does too. But if you were to ask either of us, "when did you get better?" It's hard to remember a timeline. I remember that a little over a year after D-Day he begged me to talk to the counselor about forgiving myself....because he already had and he couldn't bear to see me hurting. It was two steps forward two steps back, then one step back, then a half step back.....then there were so many steps forward the steps back were more like blips than hurdles.

The past will never be undone, but for both of us, the future is much more exciting.

WPG
I do feel for you and your husband both.

As a BS in fairly early recovery, I can maybe empathise with your husband - I still feel such an idiot that I didn't see what was happening. I struggle to trust my own judgement and imagine all sorts of hideous scenarios. I was reading another thread on here with a hideous husband betraying his pregnant wife in many callous ways and instead of thinking that I was relatively lucky, I started wondering if my husband had done the same stuff.

I think that BSs are like children - their imaginations are much bigger than any half truths they are told. Can you ask your husband to tell you what he thinks could have happened in your A? Maybe by bringing his worst case scenarios out into the open, you can reassure him.

You obviously need to get through to him somehow - I am not very experienced at all this, so ignore me if I am way off the MB track here.

Good luck

I would agree with this, except for one thing in this case. Look at the timeline here:

Me: 38, FWW EA 3/09-8/09, turned PA 5/09
Him: 43, BH
D-Day #1 8/25/09
D-Day #2 1/7/10
NC sent 8/25/09, broken by OM Jan. '10
Married 13 years this Oct, together 17
2 Gorgeous DD's (7 and 8)
Trying to make it in Plan A

The last D-day was close to a year ago (okay, 10 months). WPG's BH seems to have been stuck in the shell-shock stage for almost a year. You yourself even stated that no one (including the WS) should have to accept their needs not being met forever, or even for years. Well, it's been almost a year, and he seems to have made absolutely NO progress towards deciding whether or not he wants to try to work on his M. That's an awful long time for someone to live with someone who won't even talk to them much of the time.

If she's doing a Plan A, which she claims to be, then 10 months is an awful long Plan A to see no progress.

I'm having my doubts about her Plan A'ing him consistently for 10 months. And he IS meeting some needs if he's giving FS, DS, etc.

I'm trying to read his thread now, I'll be back later.

This doesn't help much if FS and DS are not among her top EN's.

P.S. FRs change everything in recovery. They screw things up royally and for a long time. That is playing a large part in their being "stuck".

Right. O&H is about YOURSELF: your needs, your emotions, your feelings, your history, your plans for the future, your secrets, the things you're ashamed of in your own past. Not about your spouse or their shortcomings. Those are resolved through respectful persuasion and very brainstorm-ey negotiation.

Sure it does, know how I know? Because if he stopped doing them it would matter ALOT.

We often overlook important ENs that are being met and being met well. We don't realize how important they are until they AREN'T being met.