Well, MF, if you would stop calling people's posts asinine and referring to them as stupid, maybe the chips on shoulders wouldn't show up as often.

I don't agree with everything you say on here either, but I've never called you name or insulted you because of it. Grow up. [/quote]

Actually I never called anyone either of those things but I did say some of your posts are, ummm...should I say, a bit off.
[/quote]

And I did specifically say you were referring to my POSTS as asinine, not me.

And, speaking of a bit off, I thought you were quite off when you berated WPG for spending some time with her mother instead of sitting home while her H completely ignored her all day. She didn't know ahead of time that the kids weren't going to be home that day and she had already made plans with her mother. Also, for the sake of her own mental health, I think it's perfectly reasonable for her to want to see her mother once in awhile and spend a little time with someone who actually speaks to her.

Yet, even though I disagreed with you, I didn't call your post or your opinion asinine.

And, since you asked, this is where you referred to us as stupid.

Oh, and sorry for the messed up quotes on my last post. My Mac isn't cooperating today.

I asked for the quotes that Dr. Harley or anyone here has ever stated that a FWS must go forever without getting their needs met. I don't need quotes on what I said, I know what I said.

Well, since we are here on MARRIAGEBUILDERS and we support MARRIAGEBUILDERS concepts, this is not what MB nor Dr. H recommends.

He recommends that we FIRST meet our UA hours and THEN we are free to spend any other leisure time with others. So, you are incorrect, writer, and it doesn't really matter what YOU think. We are here to support MARRIAGEBUILDERS concepts, right? I assume that is what you are here to do as well?

Considering you denied calling us either of those things (one of them being "stupid") I just wanted to make it clear that you did, in fact, call several of us FWW's stupid.

Anyway, I'm done. Off to take the baby to story time at the library.

Hope you're having a good day WPG. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a good job. Keep on keeping on.

Naked. Full Monty.

We done yet? I've got boardwalk with a motel.

I admit that I have no quote of anyone saying that a WS should suffer forever, always be aware of their A, or never get needs met again. Just like no one on this thread said that a BS's pain doesn't matter, they should get over it in a week, or any other extreme knee jerk type statements.

A's are just sucky, painful, horrible things all around. No one should ever ever have one and no one should ever ever have to suffer through them. I can definitely see why it seemed like I have a chip, and I shouldn't have come on so strong. But I seemed to fare better when I was constantly teetering on the edge of "I am a terrible sinner; come learn from my terrible sin".....not in my M, but on forums. And when I finally had to step back and DH and I really got down to the nitty gritty, I realized that constantly rewinding that part of our lives so I could look at is as some perpetual warning and reminder.....was just not good. It was hurting me. It was KEEPING me from being the kind of W I should be. Now that I have determined NOT to be defined by something that is over....my M is faring better than ever, but in other places.....not so much.

What does that mean? Is it really ALL a chip, or is there a universal secondary gain to keeping FWS focused on how wayward they were to keep them humble? I am not being snarky. I am asking real questions because the answers have great bearing on how well we are able to apply ALL of the Marriage Builder concepts. Because there are a whole lot of concepts out there besides just the one "do whatever it takes for as long as it takes" principle.

But, you do understand why it is stated that way? Right?

You CAN'T apply a time limit. Human suffering is subjective and variable.

If you try to apply some sort of time line, you instill some sort of false hope.

That start has to be focused on "RIGHT NOW," if you start pining for that "things get better" it just makes the whole process seem so much longer and so much more painful.

Misinformation effect... your perspective, your reality has changed. It's AWESOME! It's not as easy to see from inside the meat grinder, you know?

I don't believe that FWS should be kept focused on how wayward they were, and I don't believe it is the general sense of this board that they should, either.

I think you've realized something great in your own personal recovery, but I wonder if you aren't at risk of being blown over by it and maybe taking a few of the rest of us out in the process!

I agree, you should not be defined by that piece of your past. But I also think as much as possible other people's situations need to not be defined by realizations of your present. We all project ourselves onto other situations to some extent, there's no getting around that. But the less we can do it, the better.

You are right about this, and I'm sorry. I don't want to become like my friend who - after she quit smoking - became that obnoxious person who informed random strangers that they might die of cancer and they should "put that thing out!"

WPG, I'm also sorry that my "verbaging" my own stuff distracted from your thread. Sometimes I have what my 3rd grade teacher called "diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain."

I should apologize too as I believe I may have started this whole mess.

I have noticed a problem that I have with projecting my insecurities on to others. I relate to WPG a lot and am taking her thread and her H's very personally.

I will try to offer some positive insight.

WPG,

My H is/was a lot like yours. On his down days, he still is; however, the down days are decreasing as time progresses. What I find happening to me is that I get my hopes up and then the wind knocked out of my sails.

How I am coping is by staying the course because it is the right thing to do...not because I have any expectations. I am transparent because I have nothing to hide. If he asks a question with the intent of getting a rise out of me or to make a point, I answer it without any ire. Last night at dinner he was talking to the children about the wrongness of lying. He continued on and on looking at me for a reaction. I simply backed him up...not because I was trying to appease him but because lying IS wrong. Later he was talking about the evils of social networking sites. I do not necessarily agree with him there (my affair was started that way; however, I did not have appropriate boundaries anywhere). I did not argue...just told the kids it was a moot point as they were way to young to worry about it.

During early recovery I was a mess. I was afraid to move and that he would take it the wrong way. I used to run. He thinks I ran for OM. I stopped running and he accused me of not caring about my appearance anymore...I ran again and he would ask if I thought of OM. I couldn't decided what to do anymore. Finally a therapist said it quite plainly..."When you want to run, run...if you don't, don't.

He was doing this with our texts and e-mails..."Did you text me because you were thinking of him?" "Why didn't you write me more today?" Now I am doing what I feel is right, not because I am worried about his response.

I can only control me. I will not do anything deliberately to hurt him but I can't be constantly questioning every move. It was exhausting.

Do your best, don't give into your taker but take care of yourself.

MB Members,

Please remember to keep your posts respectful. Please stop bickering amongst yourselves. If you have something to offer that will help WPG in learning and applying the Marriage Builders program to her marriage, I encourage you to do so.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Friendly reminder:

It's only been 6 WEEKS since JC said... 6 MONTHS!

JC told you 6 MONTHS for a reason!

Love, Protection and Care require the main ingredient of TIME as well....

Find ways to enhance your UA Time in both quality and quantity.... This is the most essential ingredient in restoring the love that was both unprotected and uncared for. (15+ hrs. wk.)

Both Dr. Harley & Dr. Chalmers preached the UA time of 15 hrs MINIMUM or the MB program would not work fork for us and our marraige would likely not recover. I'm sure you've heard the same thing from Dr. Chalmers.....

Be creative, Be patient!

Wow. Somehow I'd totally missed this.

"Six-month Plan A" means:
* Six months of meeting his needs expecting rejection and expecting him not to return it.
* Six months of refraining from Love Busters even if he engages in them.
* Six months of spending at least 15 hours a week meeting his intimate emotional needs, and if he won't let you, then scheduling that time to meet his non-intimate needs.
* Six months of being radically honest with him even if he hurts you with it.

It sucks, but it is what it is. This is the recipe Jennifer gave you for winning him back. Stick with it. Re-read "Surviving An Affair" for inspiration on completing a successful Plan A.

I spoke with Dr. Harley on the phone about a Love Buster my wife engages in regularly. After learning about the end of the affair fifteen months ago, he advised me to just live with that Love Buster for at least the next two to three years before attempting to address it.

That's the kind of timeline you're on here, @WPG. In it for the long haul, or not?

I will try to attempt to answer your question but first I need to know, what exactly do you mean by "keeping the FWS focused on how wayward they were"?

Examples of that would be helpful because I do not see any of that anywhere. Do you mean the natural consequences of being wayward? (ie, having a spouse that no longer trusts you; being temporarily in a M with no needs being met due to the trauma the BS has been through; being transparent)?

I'll wait for an answer before I proceed because I am not clear on what you mean.

Thanks for looking into and not being offended by the "chip on your shoulder" comment. You have always given good, sound advice and it's disappointing when someone who you respect seems very "off" and on the attack.

geez, I am stuck in meetings today and this thread goes nuts...

I apologize if I miss responding to everyone - I've had to go back and read and re-read a couple of times to sort out the different posts.

MarriedForever, after reading your post I asked DH if he'd like me to take another poly. "Why?" I flat-out told him it was b/c of advice I had received on my thread. I told him I am trying very hard not to read his thread - it's like probing a sore tooth, the last time I peeked in there I saw him referring to me as an "evil liar" and I bowed just as quickly back out. Anyway, I told him I was trying to stay away from his thread but there seem to be folks who are posting to both of us, and perhaps someone thought that would be helpful for him. He said something about people getting into an argument on his thread so I kind of laughed and said it was going around! But no yes/no response.


sunny, I did a double-take when you said this. I have gotten the exact same thing here. I still run, but I was training for a half-marathon. Literally ran out of steam and off the rails. My workouts had been daily but after running a 10K last May, I slipped to a couple times a week if I was lucky. H had said something very similar, how he feels like he doesn't "give me wings" like the OM did since I was not working out as often. No, I stopped working out because I got depressed. Unfortunately every time I get down he believes it is b/c I am pining for the POSOM. And I didn't run for the OM either. I ran b/c 2 of my girlfriends wanted to run a race together. Now they are running a half-marathon a week from Saturday without me and I am disappointed in myself, but that's another story.


You are right. I can't control him. But I HATE those responses. Like the text he sent me at the meeting a couple weeks ago. I took my phone w/me in the meetings I've had the last couple of days and texted him frequently to let him know what was going on. Part of me was worrying that he'd send me another bomb like he did earlier. But the only text I got from him in 2 days was asking if I could stop and buy cigarettes on my way home.

tst & DNM, I know it hasn't been but a few weeks since I talked to JC...I have been doing everything I could to meet his needs since we took the ENQ, though, and that was back in July. I am sure that I was not avoiding all LB's at that time, but once I learned what they were I began to work on eliminating them. I read SAA back then (literally devoured it in a weekend) and I am sure I could stand a re-read. I didn't have everything in place all at once because I didn't know all the concepts, but I wasn't doing nothing prior to talking to JC either. Maybe it wasn't a perfect Plan A, I don't know what you'd call it...but I was trying. JC just called it "sort-of Plan A-ing," lol.

I'm still frustrated about not addressing his LB's. How do you protect your LB$? And please don't think I am whining - I am not talking about needs-meeting here, I am talking about deliberately doing things that are hurtful or not following POJA...although I guess if he's not on-board with MB I can't hold him accountable for that. Here's an example: he bought 4-wheelers last weekend for the DDs. A large purchase that I wasn't too crazy about. In less than one week, both girls have had accidents on them. I found out the youngest fell off and scraped her chin Monday and the older one flipped hers over this afternoon while I had taken the youngest to her music lesson. It's not that I was completely against the things, just have some safety concerns as well as it being a big expense and a gift that could have possibly waited till Christmas. He acts completely nonchalant about the accidents. I bite my tongue and tell the girls they just need to be careful, and I told them I would prefer they ride only when their daddy was home.

It's this type of behavior that is bothering me. Very large purchases (money-wise), taking out lines of credit and loans, etc. I stepped back from handling the finances because early on in recovery (the lying phase or whatever you want to call it), it was something we decided to do together. He's got access to all accounts now as part of EP's and transparency - I can't use any of the credit/bank cards without him being able to see it. I am trying not to say anything because I do know that pre-A/old M, when I controlled the money, I DID complain if he wanted to buy things that I thought were frivolous, and that was a DJ. And he doesn't say anything if I go buy a new pair of shoes. Money disagreements were part of the problems in our old M, and we're still having issues - or, well, I am having issues and I am keeping my mouth shut about it.

I can handle - for a while longer, anyway - not having my needs met. Some LB's are minor - I can put up with the annoying habits, for example. He does not have AO's. Unless the "A-bomb" text he sent me would classify as an AO - or a DJ? I get the occasional jab or sucker punch. It's the IB that is the worst for me right now, especially since I am desperately trying to POJA everything down to "would it be OK if take cash out of the ATM for the girls and I to have lunch".

It's difficult to adhere to the 15 hours UA time when you have a spouse that doesn't want to be with you. Others have said that if he doesn't want to be with me, then I must not be meeting his needs. I don't get the feedback from him I need, though, to do a better job at meeting his needs. Because I am willing. But I'm tilting windmills in the dark.

Will you think ill of me, if I were to tell you;

KNOCK IT THE CRAP OFF!!!! RAWR!!!

Ok, ok, ok...

WPG;


Ok?

This is what you have been told over, and over, and over.

I'm not saying that you aren't intending well, but you keep trying to PUSH HIM OUT OF HIS GRIEF. This may be LENGTHENING THE PROCESS WHILE INTENDING TO SHORTEN IT.

KITCO! (see above)

Support does not mean; push, prod, poke. I STILL can't give a good answer when I break down and FWW is begging "What can I do!?!?!?!?!?"

I DON'T KNOW!

It's a process, you have go go through it. THAT is what Plan A is doing. Support without impeding the process.

Capice?

Imagine a straight piece of cooked spaghetti on a table. How do you push it where you want it to go without damaging it or making it go all funny-shaped? At least at room temperature, you simply can't do it.

But you can gently pull it along. If you pull too hard, you'll break it.

You're pulling him into recovery with you by Plan A. You're providing the motivation to him to want to recover. Just like he spent four months making you fall in love with him again, you're doing the same for him: showing by example that you're in it for the long haul.

To protect your $LB$ balance, learn to state how something hurts and walk away. It will eventually sink in when you refuse to engage. For now, that's the best you can do. Down the road, when he's willing to accept help for his motivation problem, the two of you can complete assignments together to radically improve your marriage.

But help him reach the point he's actually interested, first. That might mean doing a bit of reverse-wayward-psychology on yourself: imagine he's an alien inhabiting your husband's body. The only way to free your husband is to keep meeting your husband's needs. He'll peek out now and then, but then the alien will take over again. When he hurts you, it's the alien talking. In time, you can help him exorcise the alien, but you can never do that by confronting it. Only by leading by example.

Wpg, I once wrote to Dr. Harley and asked him for some suggestions about how to Plan A my wife when she was unwilling to open her Love Bank for deposits. He replied with the answer that you spend 15+ hrs of UA time together providing extraordinary care and protection during that time.

He kept it pretty simple for me, didn't he?

Care = Meet EN's
Protection = Avoid LB's




I don't think you're whining!

The question about how to protect your LB$ is an important one. As a FWH I believe that adopting and living with solid EP's is the only way to address this. The goal is to protect your LB$ from being filled by other men.

I will go find and link my thread about EP's

As for your H's LB'ers .... You cannot really protect yourself from your H's Love Busters, it is HIS responsibility to do that.

Once your H is willing to open his LB$ again, his LB'ers will begin to deminish....


I'm sorry to harp on this, but just a reminder;

This will require time, as in 6 months as suggested by JC.
This will require time, as in 15+ hrs of UA each week.