I've got a lot to read and catch up on - seeing this stuff posted about FR's, though, I wanted to post a clarification.

I completely misunderstood what an FR was when I started posting - and actually some of that was due to some of the resources I had read and people we talked to after January. I got the idea that our recovery was "false" because we - or DH, more precisely - thought we were "recovered" (our first counselor we went to after the EA was revealed essentially "graduated" us - she was pleased with how far we had come and how "in love" we seemed). However, once DH learned that I had lied to him and the A had actually become a PA, his aunt (a social worker) advised us that everything we'd done had been completely negated. The concept of recover being "false" stuck in my head.

DNM clarified for me that what we went through was not a FR, but trickle truth. I broke off the A in August 2009. NC was in place until January when I did talk to OM, and I did send a nasty email in response to one he sent my H. That was a knee-jerk response on my part - my H did not ask me to do it. I was furious that OM had sent him a stupid mass email message and it just set me off. That was sometime in the spring, before finding MB.

So from August on, I have put everything into recovery, except, in the beginning, the truth. That is part of the reason I took the polygraph last week. I didn't find MB until probably June or July and began reading the info here and lurking on the forums. Obviously if I'd found the site sooner, I would have started using MB concepts sooner. I was trying a semi-Plan A from the get-go, although I was not doing it perfectly. When I spoke to JC for the first time in September of this year, she recommended a 6-month plan A. (so, DNM, that's my timeline, essentially - the point where I will have to reassess)

I just wanted to comment on those things for now and clarify that even though my lying negated our initial recovery, I was NOT continuing to carry on an A in the face of my H's earnest attempts at recovering our M. In fact, JL pointed out for me several pages back in this thread that my H's actions in that first 4 months caused me to fall back in love with him again. I think JL is absolutely correct. If I hadn't fallen back in love with him again, I don't think I'd be struggling so much now.

For years, we had not met each others' needs at all. Well, MarriedForever, I'll grant you DS and FS, I think it was you who pointed this out. But during those 4 months, he met my needs like nobody's business. He was incredible. Amazing. Yes, I fell crazy head-over-heels again in love with my husband. And now it's gone. Not the love, but HIM. He's gone. Because I lied to him.

Yes, he's still meeting the needs of DS (although not to the extent he did from Aug-Jan) and FS. We do occasionally have SF. That's a hot-button issue. SF was not listed high on his list of needs - I think it was down around #7 or 8. He's always been low-drive, whereas I've got a higher drive. Pre-A, if I initiated SF I was almost always turned down. We only had it if he initiated. Now, if I'm too eager, then he thinks about the sex I had with POSOM. If I'm reluctant or not eager enough, then he thinks about how I wanted POSOM more than him. We have conversation, but not intimate conversation. He shows no affection or admiration, although I do my best to show those for him. We occasionally have RC although it is very sporadic - I've tried thinking of things we can do together but he is often uninterested in my ideas yet won't suggest one of his own. The last thing we did together RC-wise was probably our hiking trip a month ago, other than dinner out and shopping at "Wally-World." (My top EN's, BTW, are affection, conversation, admiration, FC, and SF - the top 3 are completely unmet right now)

I don't know if any of that makes a difference. Clarification seems moot. I still had an A. I lied. My H can barely stand to be in the same room with me, let alone touch me. It seems like some people advise me to do one thing and others advise something else. I honestly don't know what to do anymore because nothing is working.

Oh, okay. I thought you were saying that people here were pushing that idea!

FBH's behavior is atypical for a forty-three-year-old. Low sex drive at that age can be indicative of a number of issues: depression, insomnia, low testosterone (very, very easily fixed by visiting a doctor and getting a prescription), etc.

But most commonly in most men it's a false symptom: their low sex drives with their wives are due to pornography use. Which also creates Contrast Effect and a host of other issues. Absolute indecision of this type just doesn't seem to be a normal response to an affair. Typically a BH is extremely eager to recover, or ready to throw in the towel. @broken2009 has just hit a Motivational Swamp that I worry may require some kind of intervention to get him out of.

T/J: WPG, I apologize in advance if this is not helpful. However, with all of the back and forth lately regarding WWs, I thought it might contribute something to the conversation.

Bear with me, as I am typing this off the cuff...

As is true for the BS and the M, I think there are also steps for a WS to experience along the road to recovery. A few that I can think of, (in no particular nor comprehensive order):

*Shock/horror/disgust
*Self-flagellation, as seeking so fondly calls it
*Grief (= dwelling in the past, mourning what's been lost, depression)
*F.E.M - Frantic Emotional Mess-ness (like a hamster on a wheel desperate to get out and fix what's wrong, but unable to fix everything right then)
*Peace/acceptance/resignation - can take all forms depending on the approach to the M/BS, ownership of one's own choices and recognizing an inability to control others
*Self growth
*Hope

General thoughts:

New WSs may get blasted, either deservedly or undeservedly so, if they don't appear to have "completed" one or more of these recovery steps to a reader's satisfaction.

We progress through them at different rates, and sometimes it gets muddled on the forum because we lose perspective of either differences in recovery time, or not acknowledging that there is a gradual, evolving process at all.

I think WSs will experience those steps in their recovery process, and those alone are hard enough to face. However, throw in the fact that they are also the perpetrators, that they need to throw themselves 110% into marital recovery and healing their BS, that there are all of these concepts to learn, needs to manage, pain and betrayal (marital and individual) to deal with, and it's a lot to handle.

I think it is important to remember that it is what it is, and the WS brought this on themselves and those around them. It's not a life-ending sentence, but it is something that takes an inordinate amount of time, patience, humility, and growth.

Okay, since I'm not really going anywhere with this post, I'll stop for now. It's a process. It's hard. If you're here and posting, you're doing something right already.





Requisite disclaimer: Please don't misconstrue this post as to be "Oh, poor widdle WSs, their lives are just so very hard" at the expense of the BS. It is indisputable that the BS has been thrown into a situation none of us would want, and their experience is another post/thread/site entirely.

I think you foregt that yes the BH poured gasoline on himself but the WW lit the match that sent the BH to the hospital burn unit.

Also your statement ignores that a WS has an affair for a year, banging the OP. Then the WS expects the BS to get over it in one week. WS allowed themself to be a taker for a year but only wants to allow the BS to only get to be a taker for a week?

I'd consider this a form of FR. I discovered things later on in our recovery that wiped out all the work we'd done as well, per Kim and Dr. Harley. They considered it a form of FR as well.

His aunt was correct. See my above post ~ a similar thing happened to us and per Kim and Dr. H, our work of the past had been negated. We were back at step 1.

I haven't gone stupid at all. I've just gone tired of thread being some vicarious means for people to work out their own issues. And I am aware I am rubbing some people wrong because I no longer cow to the go hide in the corner because I was a WS protocol. My M is recovered. I am not a rookie to recovery. I am not without compassion. I am not blind to what horrible pain my DH went through. I am just NOT going to live in 2006 for the rest of my life to fulfill some stranger's fantasy of how a FWW is supposed to live.

I get tired of people not even reading what they read. I have not read one post saying that a BS's pain is not real and intense or that they should just suck it up. No one has said that. And no, just like their are no perfect BS's, there are definitely no perfect WS's. Because there are no perfect people.

This is Marriage BUILDERS. A married involves two people. Marriages are not built by tearing either of those people down.

Like I said, my M is recovered, due not only do what I did, but due to what HE was willing to do. So I am not "stupid." I am recovered. And I am strong.

IOW, the grieving process;

1. Denial � "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of positions and individuals that will be left behind after death.

2. Anger � "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"
Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Any individual that symbolizes life or energy is subject to projected resentment and jealousy.

3. Bargaining � "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just have more time..."

4. Depression � "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die... What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect oneself from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed.

5. Acceptance � "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, the individual begins to come to terms with his mortality or that of his loved one.

K�bler-Ross originally applied these stages to people suffering from terminal illness, later to any form of catastrophic personal loss (job, income, freedom). This may also include significant life events such as the death of a loved one, divorce, drug addiction, the onset of a disease or chronic illness, an infertility diagnosis, as well many tragedies and disasters.

K�bler-Ross claimed these steps do not necessarily come in the order noted above, nor are all steps experienced by all patients, though she stated a person will always experience at least two. Often, people will experience several stages in a "roller coaster" effect�switching between two or more stages, returning to one or more several times before working through it.[2]

Significantly, people experiencing (or caretakers observing) the stages should not force the process. The grief process is highly personal and should not be rushed, nor lengthened, on the basis of an individual's imposed time frame or opinion. One should merely be aware that the stages will be worked through and the ultimate stage of "Acceptance" will be reached.

However, there are individuals who struggle with death until the end. Some psychologists believe that the harder a person fights death, the more likely they will be to stay in the denial stage. If this is the case, it is possible the ill person will have more difficulty dying in a dignified way. Other psychologists state that not confronting death until the end is adaptive for some people.[2] Those who experience problems working through the stages should consider professional grief counseling or support groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model (wiki is easy)



All looks familiar, right?

An A is marital murder. The loss is subjective. I felt our M had "lost it's innocence."

I don't see this being advocated. I think MF asked for quotes to back up your assertions. Can you provide any?

Luri, what's up? You really seem to have had a chip on your shoulder about this for the last several weeks.

Really Road? Can you please point out where I ever said that the BS has to get over it in a week? Or that the BS has to "get over it" at all? Please quote that passage. Good luck, because I never said it.

However, if the M has any hope of recovering, the BS does, at some point, have to begin taking steps that will allow that recovery to take place. They have to allow the WS to begin meeting their needs, and yes, they also have to begin meeting the needs of their WS again.

Broken seems stuck in a perpetual wheel of withdrawal, hatred, and loathing, and he will never be able to recover his M that way. Maybe he doesn't want to recover it, and that is up to him. But being stuck in eternal indecision where he continually punishes his WW (and himself) for what happened is no way to live.

You never "get over" an A. But eventually, you have to find a way to heal and move on and recover, whether you stay married or not. To do otherwise will only leave you bitter and angry for the rest of your life. I know people who have chosen the eternally bitter and angry route, and it isn't pretty.

ITA, to both points.

Well, MF, if you would stop calling people's posts asinine and referring to them as stupid, maybe the chips on shoulders wouldn't show up as often.

I don't agree with everything you say on here either, but I've never called you name or insulted you because of it. Grow up.

I have seen none of that in his posts on his thread. I see a man who is dying inside from the most intense form of emotional pain anyone can go through. Interesting that you see hatred and loathing while most see pain.

Look, we all know that a FWS will never understand a BSs pain and a BS will never understand a FWSs pain. However, it's pretty much universally accepted that the BS is the victim and the FWS is not. 10 months is a drop in the bucket when it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair, and you can look at the longer of that estimate when a FR/trickle truths were present.

Actually I never called anyone either of those things but I did say some of your posts are, ummm...should I say, a bit off. Apparently I'm not the only one seeing that, either.

Telling me to "grow up" is rather hypocritical while complaining of my posts to you, don't you think?

BTW, I did ask for the quotes, so can you provide them? I'm truly interested.

Stages of grief, one page (two now?) back.

Quit bickering, or I'm running naked through the thread.

Back to wpg ~ I read many of your H's posts yesterday and I see a fairly normal BS who is right where he should be right now. I see a lot of myself in him ~a lot. That is why I've been posting to you, because I know what helped me and I think I know what could help your H too.

Be a soft place for him to land right now, wpg...it's obvious he loves you if he was able to meet those needs and you were "in love with him" during those 4 months. Try not to grow discouraged, keep Plan A'ing him and proving to him that you want to be his W, you want your M to be better than ever. I know it's hard right now, I remember seeing my FWH go through it too.

Your endurance and consistency are so incredibly important right now. You can do this and recover your M, just don't give up.

P.S. I just remembered something else ~ during one of our low points, DH counseled with Steve Harley by himself a number of times. I just wasn't interested (and I was on-board with MB, I just didn't see the point by then ~ like your H).

While I didn't admit it, seeing my H continue the counseling by himself meant a lot to me. It meant he cared and he was willing to try to fix this even without my active involvement. His actions meant so much to me.

Another thing ~ wpg, remember that your H JUST got the results of the poly, and typical of someone who can no longer trust their own perceptions, he is still wondering if the poly is true (I did that as well, it's common to do this after being lied to and deceived for so long).

So even though you've been telling the truth for months now, all this time he has been doubting your word, as he should have (he would have been crazy to just believe you were telling the truth after you had lied so much, don't you agree?).

He needs time to digest the poly, just as I did. He is still questioning himself, whether he should believe that the poly is true or not. You might consider offering to take another one for any questions he still has (my H did this and his offer was enough for me; I never requested another one).