There are definitely natural consequences to having an A. It only makes sense. I experienced them, as I should have. It makes sense that I should have experienced them from all the people who were affected by my affair. In spite of what it may sound like, I never asked DH how long it would be or if he was over it yet or anything like that. In fact, he was the one who ended up asking ME to get help because he had dealt with the grief and was moving forward, and I couldn't stop thinking I had ruined myself forever.

I am a little perturbed with myself because I actually ended up doing today and yesterday what drives me absolutely batty - reacting to something based on MY stuff instead of seeing the OP as the OP and responders as responders. My purpose in posting is not to vicariously work through my own junk, whether it be junk with my DH or other junk. This thread is not for me. So I would do well to keep my own stuff out of it. That is what drives me crazy sometimes about forums....and I did the same thing.

But this is a thread about how WPG can move forward from today and do what she needs to do for her DH and for her M. It isn't about anyone else's past pain, issues, or grinding axes. I'll keep that in mind from now on.

WPG, I have made it a point not to read your H�s thread, and I never will so nothing I say will have one thing to do with him.

This cannot be repeated enough times:

You control you.

He controls him.

It seems to me that you all are in the marital death spiral of:

I control him by filtering every single thing I do through my Plan A filter and not being honest about who I am or what I want.

I am choosing to let him control me by choosing to react to, worry about, obsess about, focus on, think about to every single thing twitch of a reaction I get from what I have chosen to do to control him pursuant to my Plan A filter.

Trust me: doesn't matter whether you call it Plan A or Plan SB's entire marital history, it does not end well. It may look OK for the the 10-15 year out range from where you are. Not so much at 25 years.

Be mindful of what you are building from the ashes.

You are looking to him for validation that you are doing the right thing. You are not yet grounded in your truth, in the sense of who you are and what you want. And so you aren't being the warrior for your M that you need to be.

I�m going to take a little different tack here.

You seem worn out to me. Giving a lot and getting not much in return for an indeterminate period of time is daunting, no matter how desirable the end goal.

So I want to ask you: what gives you joy? What gives you peace? What passions do you have? What things do you do where you �lose time�? For me those are cooking, reading and writing --- for example, I can spend an hour on a two paragraph post and look up thinking �no way I just spent an hour on this!� I lose time. Writing gives me joy and peace. Feeding my family gives me joy and peace. Reading � I�m a book a day person.

Self-care is one of my core values (thanks JL for that whole life changing lesson in boundaries and values!). It is not selfishness or self indulgence. It is respecting yourself as worthy of the same care you give others.

Consider replenishing your energy by carving out some time for those things. Like Sunny said � if you want to run, run. Check in, be verifiably transparent and run.

You are half of this marriage, you are carrying the laboring oar in fixing it, but you cannot give from an empty plate forever. You matter.

Do you have some things you would like to see happen with your H and in your M in the next 6, 12, 18, 24 months? What are they? What time frame are you thinking for those things? Sometimes when you solidify what your expectations are, you can better tailor your actions to meet those goals. A �recovered� M is an undefined to me � given your background, it may be undefined to you as well.

I�m a pretty concrete person, so, for example, by the end of the year I want to have one conversation with my H about where our M is headed. Not terribly ambitious, but achievable.

On a more daily basis, I want to be able to close my eyes at night and be able to say I didn�t act with respect to my H out of fear that day. Fear is winning on a 10/1 basis, but the one is huge.

Your thinking and goals will be very different from mine � maybe you would like him to want to hold your hand once in the next three months or have a single conversation about X. But I think if you can articulate some interim goals besides "Plan A for 6 months," it may help you with the process.

Those goals relate to your personal recovery, your H�s recovery and the recovery of your M if that is in the cards. Those are three distinct things, and reaching each of them requires�..balance.

Which is why JC set a reasonable limit of 6 months.




ZOMG, I'm worried....



... and then the progress shines through!


I don't know why, but it feels like admitting fear is a HUGE thing here.


^ This.

Seriously want to change my name to; HoldHerHand. I am such a HUGE advocate of what seems like such a small thing after years of marriage. Anyone remember what a huge deal holding hands was when we were young?

I hold my FWW's hand every minute, every chance I get. I can't drive and talk on the cell phone. One hand is on the wheel, the other is firmly holding her hand.


WPG - I can tell you that this gesture is something I have gently suggested to your BH. He really needs to listen... but that ball is in his court...

OK, OK...he's spaghetti, he's an alien...lol - I have to try harder not to push him! My logical Spock-mind gets it - the biggest problem is that ol' Spock is hard for me to listen to, I guess...I'm overly emotional - I see it not just in my youngest DD but also my grandmother, who, like me, cry at the drop of a hat. I actually started in college as a psych major so I understand the stages of grief and I think the analogy makes sense. Our old M is dead...where logic fails me is that now we have no M, and some days I feel like Plan A is no plan at all, and Spock gets silenced.

I've wondered if something similar to cognitive behavioral therapy may be helpful for me in changing my own patterns of thinking. We use CBT with offenders to change the criminal mindset - give them new coping mechanisms and skills. I was actually reminded of this after reading the link on EP's that tst provided (excellent link - I've seen it before). I got to thinking about triggers and developing a case plan for an offender. We use an example in one of our lesson plans about a drug offender who drives by the house he used to buy drugs at on his way to his new job, how that becomes a risk factor that must be addressed - much like a FWS must develop EP's.

CBT may be helpful in training myself to remove the scarlet letter I've felt like I wear too...as luri/tawanda stated.

I had posted my EPs back on about page 15 or so of this thread. They are:


The A,B,C,D and E persons are from the Opposite Sex Protection Plan thread.

#8 has been a bear lately (coming home for lunch) due to work. I've eaten lunch at my desk mostly (although we had a chili cookoff at work Monday that DH knew about, and I ended up sitting with several of my staff, all female). One of my female coworkers wanted to go out to lunch and I texted DH to see if he was OK, per my boundary and referencing POJA - his response, "You don't need to ask me." Regardless I will continue to inform him of my daily activities so if something comes up he is not enthusiastic about, he has the opportunity to tell me so.

The PT job is done so no working at night. The only piece missing is that DH has said he doesn't know what I do at work. Uhm, post on this forum?? In all seriousness, our work email changed (which was great - upgraded to a new system so I have a new email addy). I work in a secure facility and at any time if I don't answer my direct line he can call the main # and have me paged. Secure means that OM can't walk in off the street - and for that matter I could give his name and description to the security desk and they'd keep him out if by some chance he happened to show up - he never did during the A, I don't have reason to believe he would now but it would be something I can do.

I don't know about keyloggers at work and forwarding work emails - I think there is a "rule" I can set up that would do that. I generally forward anything that I receive that documents meetings or schedules so DH is aware of those. If I get any kind of keylogger at work it would need to be something our IT folks would not pick up. I work in government so I don't know about legality of information and such, so I wouldn't want IT to know if I had such a program - make sense? I actually offered to install a webcam at work but DH said no on that. I don't know - does anyone have additional recommendations for my work environment?

And regardless of any of the posting back and forth that was going on - no worries, as far as I am concerned. I hope that the folks who have been posting continue to post. Luri - err, Tawanda, you too!!! I have read many of your posts and I find you to be very insightful, and I appreciate all the BS's and WS's, current and former, who have posted here.

Off to bed...night all and thank you.

Yes, Yes, and again Yes!

I have Glasser's "Reality Therapy: A New Approach To Psychiatry" open right here next to my computer right now. I've only read through Chapter 3 so far, but doing so is part of my personal program to find more "friends of good conversation" by educating myself on my wife's soon-to-be profession of a mental health therapist. She still has a practicum and internship to complete... recovering from the affair kind of took precedence for the time being. Now that our last kid is in first grade, there's a good chance she can find the time.

IMHO, Dr. Harley's approach is very much CBT-based. I mean, think about it: "human beings get into emotional binds, not because their standards are too high, but because their performance has been, and is, too low." Doesn't that describe the terribly confused and vacillating mind-set of a wayward spouse? And the "analysis paralysis" of a betrayed spouse trying to improve their ability to meet ENs and avoid LBs, recognizing that their expectations of themselves were inconsistent with the realistic necessities of being a good spouse?

I dig Glasser's stuff so far. It really jives with what I feel about so many behavioral disorders: medication and therapy may help, but often changing the behavior of the person will change their attitude as well.

wpg ~ you are sounding better today (yesterday, whatever), so that's encouraging. This is a long road, if you need encouragement from us here, never be afraid to ask for it, ok?

Did you see that tst/HerPapaBear said that his W (SexyMamaBear) also went through the same thing that I and your H have gone/are going through? That is, she was afraid of opening her LB$ to him as well ~ your H is totally normal for doing this. Hopefully it gives you hope that we are encouraging you to do the exact same things that SH and JC told both my H and tst to continue doing ~ meeting our needs, and spending that 15+hours UA time together.

Just because I think it might be helpful, I am going to give some suggestions of what you can do (and what my H did) even when it appears your H doesn't want to spend time with you:

~STAY HOME if he is there. Do not voluntarily go ANYWHERE without him. If you MUST go somewhere (even to music lessons for DD), always ask if he'd like to go along for the ride, maybe to stop at Starbucks for coffee (or whatever). Even if he turns you down, continue asking! One time he will surprise you, I promise!

~You said FC is one of his ENs. Bake cookies with your girls, even if he is just sitting on the couch watching TV. Or sit near him and read a book to your DDs. Have "family game night".

~Suggest a "family movie night". Make popcorn and snuggle on the couch together. Right now this is a good one because you CAN'T talk so you can't be hurt that he isn't talking to you.

~Sit on the couch and watch TV with him, even if the show doesn't interest you.

~Follow him to the garage (or whatever) and just be with him. My H used to follow me around the house like a puppy dog, at first it was annoying but now it's pretty cute. If we are in the house together, we are just about always in the same room.

~Surprise him with _______. Does he like a special kind of beer or wine? Bring it home and offer to share it with him.

Remember that confidence as a wife that I was talking about in one of my first posts to you? Make it your goal to show him what a confident, strong, loving wife you can be.

Remember...selflessly meeting his needs while he is unable to meet any of yours will eventually motivate him...not in a manipulative way, but in a cause-and-effect way. I promise.

Towards the end of each week (even now), my H began making plans for us for the weekend. That is a great practice to get into.

This is perfect, continue to do this even if he says you don't have to. In our Selfish Demands lesson we were taught to always ask each other "how would you feel if I....". That way you are not "asking permission", instead you are showing your care for your husband's feelings.

We actually have the same sitch, DH works in a high security environment as well so there is no chance he could get a keylogger on his computer. Not that this takes care of the problem, but when he looked it up (to see if it was possible), he found the documents that state very clearly that it is not and sent those to me. Like I said, this doesn't take care of the problem but at least he looked into it for me.

Good job on fwding all of your meeting schedules to your H, DH does that for me as well. He also calls me every single morning and lets me know what is on his agenda for the day. It's always a "good morning" phone call with the agenda stuff thrown in there.

Another thing DH does is he tells me of any "non-work related" conversations he has at work ~ if a female coworker is bragging about her daughter's basketball playing, someone gets a new car, two of the women are engaging in petty cat-fighting, etc. He presents it as just another topic of conversation and often we get a good laugh out of much of it.

Does your H know most of the people you work with? We now host a big Christmas party every year so that I am familiar with DH's work colleagues. This is a big, fun party and everyone looks forward to it and I like it because I feel more comfortable knowing many of the people he works with.

wpg, how close does OM live to you? Are you in the same city?

Hello WP Girl!

Looks like you have really made a lot of progress with your EP's...

You asked if anyone had any suggestions on helping your H to feel more secure and I do...

It's something your BH mentioned regarding your work, "I don't know what you do at work..."

In his heart he knows you probably REALLY don't want your former OM...

He is worrying NOW about POTENTIAL NEW OM's...

He knows your former OM probably didn't get ushered into a secure facility to see you.

He is worrying now about people you work with AND other people you may come into contact with.

Most everyone has work breaks and lunch breaks at their employment that would allow a few minutes of time with their spouse.

Invite your BH to come to your work and either order lunch delivered or arrange it so that it will be present so that you can enjoy it AT YOUR WORK IN FRONT OF EVERYONE WITH YOUR SPOUSE.

EVERY affair requires the fantasy to be present for it to work and that requires BOTH affair partners to lie to each other to keep it going...I'm really neglected, he doesn't care, we don't ever do anything together, we don't kiss, the taking off the wedding ring when they are around etc.

Sooooo.....

You reveal yourself as being in love with your spouse to everyone at your place of employment and everywhere else...

You dine together, you tell coworkers your sweetie is coming to lunch with you, you have a picture of you two on your desk, you put flowers from him on your desk (even if you have to buy them yourself in the beginning, telling your H first of course WHY you are doing it is to let EVERYONE at your work know you are in love with your H) you smile and laugh with each other, you hold hands and you give each other a sweet kiss...

You don't have to makeout with him to get the point across to all...

YOU LOVE YOUR HUSBAND!!!

If he can't make it to work or chooses not to YOU STILL DO ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

The pictures, the talking about how much you love your spouse, your plans for that night and the weekend with him, calling him in front of others to tell him you love him etc.

Potential affair partners DON'T WANT TO SEE YOU HOLDING HANDS AND OBVIOUSLY IN LOVE WITH YOUR SPOUSE. IT RUINS THEIR FANTASY!!!

Mrs.Flint used to take off her ring and put it in her pocket...

Where's the ring?

Well, I was fixing lunch, I hurt that finger, it's Wednesday...whatever....

ONLY WHEN HER AFFAIR PARTNER WAS AROUND!!!

I found the flowers I had sent her one day in the closet!!!

Because she couldn't have any sign that I loved her around.

It would have RUINED THE FANTASY!!!

You get the point.

A woman showing the world she is in love with her H is not going to get nearly the attention from potential OM as one that portrays herself as ripe for the picking.

Your H knows that.

All the webcams and cell phone surveillance in the world won't stop an OM, what does work to keep them away is to show them they are wasting their time...

And they move onto their next victim...

That's why your H asked what about work?

Show him what you want to do about work.

God bless.

Jim

Yes, this is exactly true and it was very true for me as well...hence all the EPs at DH's workplace.

Great post, Jim, you hit the nail on the head.

seeking, I see your point. Trying to control him is an exercise in futility, but rather than controlling the one thing I can control, me, I do allow his reactions to control me. Sometimes I struggle with it more than others. Case in point, today the girls were out of school and I had the day off work due to the holiday, but he had to work. The girls had dentist appts. this morning and originally I'd planned to have lunch w/them and take them to the park. Instead, last night I asked DH if he'd like to meet us for lunch, so we did that instead. He was OK with the girls but otherwise seemed uncomfortable. I kept thinking he was looking at this younger woman who came in and was sitting at the counter behind us - I'd seen her come in and she had a nice body (nicer than mine, after 2 kids) and blondish hair (and since he's said things before about wanting me to go blonde I think he's kinda got a little thing for blondes...). He may not have been looking at her - I certainly didn't bring it up - but he definitely wasn't looking at me, and I got that familiar ache in my chest. Why is it so freaking hard to just be in the moment, enjoy the time together and NOT have expectations? NOT feel disappointment? Why am I so stupid as to think he'd jump for joy when he saw me, after what I did?


As so many people have told me, I keep operating - or, put more correctly, FAILING to operate out of fear.


I love to read. I definitely lose time when I read. I used to enjoy running, but being motivated to do it now has become a struggle for me. Lately my runs frustrate me when I can barely run half the distance I was running easily 6 months ago. I used to make jewelry. I don't know, I am not even sure sometimes what brings me joy - what do I do just for me, for the pleasure of doing it...it's so stupid, but I don't know sometimes what would bring me joy.


I could come up with a billion things I'd like to see happen with my H and our M, but since I can't control him, I can't really control how our M is going to look months out, either - all I've got control over is what I contribute to it. I had to come up with "expectations" in the Respect Dare, for 4 months out, and believe me, I kept them tiny. And to be honest, I've tried to put them out of my mind (the Dare actually told us to put them in a sealed envelope and clip them to 4 months away in our calendars) and give them to God.


There's that fear thing again. Fear is still beating me a lot too.



I always loved holding hands. Even pre-A, even wayyy back in our dating days, it was something DH did rarely. There were times when I'd reach for his hand and he'd yank it away. That 4 months between Aug and Jan, we held hands a lot - we'd hold hands in the car, I'd touch his shoulder or the back of his neck or put my hand on his leg while he was driving, and he never once shrugged it off. He told me during that time that he wished he hadn't pushed me away so much, or something to that effect, because I had such loving hands. Those little chances to touch, to be touched, yes, they are small gestures but for me, yeah, a huge deal.

Fear steps in a lot now and I am afraid to reach out and touch him sometimes. I try hard to fight it but I can't always beat it. Sometimes I think I would give anything for him just to reach out and touch me, even just in passing. He kissed me goodbye this morning when he left for work, while I was still in the bed. That was huge. He hasn't done that in months. He always used to. He'll kiss me now (sometimes) when I'm up and out of bed in the mornings, but until today he'd leave without a word or touch if I was still in bed.

Thank you all for the advice! OK, where to start...

DNM, I do agree Dr. H's approach is very CBT in nature. You're literally retraining your thinking and your responses. Reading about managing triggers for offenders and redirecting faulty thinking patterns (one of our programs is called Thinking for a Change), it's very like the concepts used in MB. And it makes you see it's not all about learning to be a better communicator, which is one of the things "traditional" MC's would focus on - there's much more that is necessary here.

MarriedForever, thank you for the suggestions on FC and the things that your H did that helped you. We DO have another child-free Friday night and Saturday thanks to grandma, and I have tomorrow to make my plans for something we can do together.

You'd also asked about OM and where he was. We're not in the same city - but he is in the next city over. Lives probably 12-15 miles away. No, it's not far away. Until my foray onto FB, we'd never once crossed paths, even though he'd apparently been living around here for years, and I've always lived here except for grad school. I know for me, I avoid that whole city if at all possible. Avoiding it is not technically listed as an EP for me, maybe it should be, but I don't like to go there to eat, shop, whatever, and I will take a roundabout way if I have to go through it. If I do have to go through there (some of my work is in the capital, which is on the other side) I make sure my DH knows where I will be.

Also, thanks for the suggestions regarding work that you and Jim_Flint had for me.



Yes - it's funny that you say that - before the truth came out, DH had come by work to bring me flowers, he was emailing and texting all the time, I mean, I walked around glowing like a 1000-watt bulb! It was funny, the women reacted more than the men - they were totally and completely jealous! We have had lunch together in my office before as well.

He's met some of the people I work with. I invited him to the Christmas party we had last year and he seemed very uncomfortable. I invited him to our chili cookoff last week but he didn't come. I do try to let him know things that go on on a personal nature - so-and-so's father is sick, so-and-so's son is playing football, things like that. Although he doesn't like it when I complain/vent about work, so I try to avoid that - JC told me to "take my muddy work boots off" before I come in the house, and that to remind myself that I am withdrawing units from his LB$ when I vent.

He's off tomorrow, I'm not - but I mentioned he could come by and "hang out" with me - I'm "in charge" tomorrow which essentially means a much calmer day at the office, lol.

WPG,

before the truth came out, DH had come by work to bring me flowers, he was emailing and texting all the time, We had lunch together in my office before as well.

If those thoughtful actions happened between dday1 and dday2 then those actions may have become triggers for him.

I invited him to our chili cookoff last week but he didn't come.

That's one of the things I don't trust my W about, in that I don't know how widespread the knowledge of the A was at her workplace, and how much of a laughing stock I was. Perhaps your H feels others at your workplace were in on the secret.

God Bless
Gamma

Being you have to travel past the OM home to get to the capital for work cosider this.

If the OM lives S of the capital why not move N E or W of the capital to reduce odds of running into the OM?

That's possible, Gamma...if so, what may have become triggers for him was what caused me to fall back in love with him. I don't know what the answer is to that, if that is the case.


Also a possibility in his eyes. But nobody knew - it was my secret. I would have been ashamed for anyone at work to have known what I was capable of doing - it wasn't like me. Deep down I knew it, and I told no one. Not even my closest friends. One thing DH wanted me to do when I came clean was tell them too.



I don't travel past his home, just through the city he lives in on a 6-lane highway. I won't travel past his home, it's on the "old road" that is on the opposite side of town. I go out of my way to avoid it. Fortunately I don't have to go thru there often, my office is actually in the city we live in - we're just a big gov't agency so we have some offices located in the capital city. Where he works is closer to the highway but not directly on it - I didn't even know where it was but DH did, so I avoid that area as well.

I don't even know if DH would consider moving - lately he's been doing a lot of work on the house, putting a lot of time, effort and money into fixing things up. Although the though crossed my mind he's making improvements to sell (fear talking) or fixing things that I won't have to deal with if he was gone (yup, fear again). If our M doesn't make it, I wouldn't stay here. I used to think this house was so important, but it takes all 4 of us to make it home. Otherwise, it's just a house.

WPG - I can tell you that I am embarassed walking into my FWW's place of work. There is only 1 person there who knows - and tries to deny - that anything happened.

It's very diminishing, even knowing what I have learned here, to face people who (may or may not) know that your spouse has been unfaithful. Because all of the face-to-face interaction happened at her place of work, and some of the physical, that entire place is a trigger. Every time I walk in there. The McDonald's they would grab lunch at, trigger. The street they drove down to... yeah, trigger.

I know the exact location, so that route, that corner of town is off limits to me. Even facing that section of that road (the road we freaking live on, that I travel every day to work, that I travel to take her to work) triggers me, HARD.


Phew. Anyway... glad to hear there is a little something going good for you.

WPG... don't "Tommy Boy" that glint of hope, OK?

Hello Gamma,

One of the hardest things for me to deal with in the affair between my wife and my brother was embarrassment...

I mean, how DO you get away from the embarrassment of seeing people (my family and friends) after the revelation of an affair between your W and brother???

When I came to MB it became much clearer, I was not the person at fault for not seeing thier betrayal...

I was a victim of them.

Just like a woman who had been raped or a person who was beaten and robbed...

I had not been wrong to trust...

THEY were in the wrong for betraying someone who loved them.

The ones who cheat and steal are viewed as pathetic creatures who are not worthy to be honored by being asked to marry...

all they got were the crumbs from someone else's plate...

all they were worthy of is being used.

To survive and recover from adultery requires a different mindset than I should be embarrassed because I did something wrong by trusting someone I should have been able to trust.

It requires the realization that the ones that betray and destroy innocent lives are the ones who carry the shame...

NOT the ones who believed in their marriage vows.

WP Girl knows this...

Now we need to help her to help her BH to figure this out for himself.


Jim

EP alert: @HHH, are you saying your wife still works in a location where she can/will come into contact with OM?