((((WPG))))) I remember those days. I would be willing to bet your DH does NOT want you to see yourself this way. No emotionally healthy person of character would want another human being to see themselves this way. Read that last sentence again - every word is true.

It's a process....it takes time...but real, loving, adult recovery is possible.

Wulffpack,

You said
Read this carefully, very carefully. Do you see where you are needed right now? I sure do. Your MIL will need all of the help and support she can get right now. I am not saying don't pay attention to your H, but I am saying where it is clear YOU ARE NEEDED, right now.

Help your MIL she needs it very very much right now.

God Bless,

JL

I know...he didn't fall in love with me because I was a "worthless wh*re"...some days I just feel like I am so far gone from the woman - no, really, girl - that I was 17 years ago when we met. I don't know where she is or how to bring back whatever that spark was that she had that kindled with DH. I became something I didn't like, I did things I never thought I would do.

More bad news with my FIL - they stopped radiation. He's home, and they have brought in hospice. The dr's say there is nothing else they can do for him. JL, FIL is not still married to my MIL - he's remarried. So has MIL although they seem to have a good relationship. Long, complicated family story, but FIL is not DH's bio dad, but he's been DH's father since he was, oh, about 7 years old. FIL's wife is a sweet lady and they seem genuinely happy together. My grandmother went through this (cancer) with my grandpa. I was really too young to remember much - I was my oldest DD's age exactly. But I remember how frail he became, how a man who had gone to work every day and played golf every chance he got was reduced to lying on the couch - I remember he used to wear long johns because he was cold. He was only 56. My dad was younger than I am now when he lost his father.

Anyway, DH found all this out tonight via phone call from his sister. He went to bed before 8PM. I asked if he wanted to talk about anything tonight and he said no, he was just tired.

Lately I am thinking that I would love to just grab DH and pack a very tiny suitcase and jet off to Tahiti for a few months.

OK, did a dumb thing. Was looking in DH's phone to see if he had FIL's wife's cell number. Do you know that he has OM saved in his contact list? What is that all about? And he has a text saved that OM sent him from January 2010 re: the number of times we had sex. What a great little reminder that he has at his fingertips. He probably still has copies of what he recovered from the computer too, even though we supposedly destroyed all that together. How can we ever truly make it into recovery if he keeps this stuff?

Unless he is keeping it to prepare for a D.

Stupid. I shouldn't have looked for the number. I deserve whatever I find.

wulffpack,

You missed my point. Do something good for some in need. You know your MIL will need support and there may be others. Aren't you capable of supporting someone in great pain? If you are, consider doing it.

JL

Many BS's want to hold on to the evidence, and many posters encourage the BS's to save evidence incase recovery never happens.

Not stupid. (you)

Tell BH what you did, why you did it, and what you found.

Then follow up with that I thought we had agreed to get rid of all affair reminders. Knowing that you may feel unsettled and having proof makes you feel safer, I need you to put it away some place safe, say at your mom's, for the time being, because you looking at it will only make you trigger and stop the healing recovery process.

Then get yourself involed helping MIL get through your FIL crisis.

WPG,

OK, did a dumb thing. Was looking in DH's phone to see if he had FIL's wife's cell number.

Not really dumb this is what spouses should be able to do, but at this stage of the game you have to accept what you find.

.....he has a text saved that OM sent him from January 2010 re: the number of times we had sex.

In your H case I think he still can't come to grips with what happened, it is like a waking nightmare that is so at odds with his world view that he needs that evidence to keep himself from thinking he is going crazy. My W "forgets" certain details that absolutely killed me btw and I feel stabbed again when she does.

Perhaps you need to take some time to read some of the BH threads to get a better understanding of what your H's internal dialog is like. Reading WW threads really helped me.

You can't force recovery at the pace YOU want.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks...I guess just seeing that stuff, for me, is a trigger. Not to have "warm fuzzy feelings" for OM, but to just feel shame and guilt and hopelessness. The usual stuff. Reading the BH threads does help, Gamma. Recovery seems to run in stages for pretty much everyone. It almost seems as though DH keeps getting stuck here and there along the way. I know he's still got anger, because it comes out in other areas. He was on the phone the other night with his sister and the kids were running around. I told them to be quiet and of course they didn't listen, he got up and stomped after them - our little one went and hid behind the couch and he kicked the couch. They thought he was just playing because they were giggling, but I saw the look on his face. I had to get up and go out in the garage for a minute. I just hate seeing him in pain, and knowing that I caused it, and feel helpless to do anything.

We spent part of yesterday evening paying bills together and then he was ready for bed. As far as having any sort of conversation, we don't, over anything meatier than what to get the kids for Christmas. I can tell he's withdrawn and I know what is going on with his dad is on his mind.

I went by to see his dad today before coming to the office. He was able to talk and was awake for a little while. I wish DH would make some time to go see him but I don't want to push. I'm afraid he is going to regret not being with his dad. Mom said my dad talked with DH a little, about when he lost his father. I'm going to try and get the kids over there to see him. My work schedule absolutely stinks right now since I am running this 2-week school so I don't know if I can get them there until the weekend. And then my mind worries that will be too late. Apparently DH's sister brought her 2 kids by this morning and they got very upset seeing their grandpa. My MIL asked me if I thought our girls would get upset, but I really don't think they will - I don't know why I feel that way, but I just think they are going to be OK.

Anyway I channelled my inner Martha Stewart this morning and put dinner in the crockpot, so one less thing he has to worry about tonight when he gets home, since our youngest has her music lesson and I'm stuck at work till at least 7 for class. I still send texts and emails, just reiterating that I am here for him and I love him, and that I want to be his wife. He doesn't respond but I keep sending them anyway.

My mother thinks he will stay in the state he's in until something happens to shake him out of it. I don't know. But I'll keep doing what I am doing regardless.

I've been thinking about you. My DH seems as stuck as yours. I think I do have more "good" days when he is more engaged and we have a great time. We had one of those over the holiday. Nothing felt forced. I felt "in love" and thought he felt that way too.

Unfortunately that has ended and he is back to being withdrawn and dismissive. In same ways that makes the good times almost harder. I feel like when he makes a "deposit" then I will end up paying for it later with interest. It makes it very hard to not put up walls to "protect" me from the good times.

I am trying to live each day as it comes and enjoy all the blessings I have. I know I can continue filling all the "wife" requirements and probably most of his ENs but I am afraid at some point I will become so numb that when he is ready to fill mine, I won't be able to receive it.

Maybe your DH does need something to shake him out of it but it definitely isn't something you can manufacture or control. You'll drive yourself crazy analyzing every interaction for what you should have/could have done better. I know because I do this. We just have to check our internal barometers to be sure we are doing the best we can. It is so difficult to trust yourself when you messed up so badly.

I know what you mean, sunny. It is what comes after the good times that I dread. Because it always happens. I know recovery is a roller coaster, it's a long term thing, and I understand I can't force the pace of it.

If I could do like Superman in one of the movies where Lois Lane is in her car and it gets crushed in a rockslide - where he flies around the earth till he gets it to turn backwards and turns back time (yeah, it was a cheesy plot device), I would do it in a heartbeat. I would have never, never, never had even the first seemingly "harmless" contact with the POSOM. I would have learned to communicate my needs, to meet H's needs, and eliminated my LBs.

I guess the reality of it is that I simply don't see us in recovery. I used to. The A is long over, but recovery just isn't happening. H may say things every once in a while like I "deserve a second chance," but I think I am beyond the point of trusting in that anymore. I need him to meet me somewhere...not even halfway, a quarter of the way, an eigth would be OK - that he is willing to give MB a chance and willing to try and have a passionate, romantic marriage, not just a strained co-existence as roommates.

I've tried to live as you say, counting my blessings, trying to *think* myself joyful. I have continued to Plan A and avoid LB's. I try to fulfill his EN's when I can (and the only reason I can't fulfill all the intimate EN's is that our UA time is lacking - he'll go straight to bed when the kids do, or sometimes before, for example; I suggest activities to do together and he goes and does something solitary, like drive his tractor around the yard - granted, I can get out in the yard and work also, but he'll gravitate to activities that I can't help with). I make myself open and available to him to try to fulfill my EN's, but he rarely makes an effort. When I have to ask him, as I did last night, if I can have a good night kiss, and he huffs a heavy sigh and stomps back across the living room, that ain't exactly adding to the LB$. And no, I didn't say it in a whiny/needy way, I kept my voice light and tried to be flirty when I said it.

I realize that the reason we are the way we are is because of what I did. I totally get that there is no way to make up for a betrayal of that magnitude. I've tried to do what Dr. H, Dr JC, and others have suggested in the way of "just compensation."

I'm having anxiety attacks several times a day and suicidal thoughts. I don't know how to make it stop, I don't know how to make it better. I know that some people might just think I am whining and saying "poor me," but I am losing steam here pretty fast. I know I can't force things. I know I can never fully understand the depths of H's pain, but I read everything I can get my hands on, including the posts on this forum, to try and "get" things from a BH's perspective.

Back to what tst said a while back, no, I don't want to abandon my accident victim. I love him. I want to be married to him. I want a life with him. But I don't think he will ever want a life with me and nothing I can do is going to make a difference.

I am trying to get to Christmas. I want the kids to have a "normal" Christmas in their home. I know that Christmas is not the 6 months from when I had my session with JC but even she said I had been doing a "sort of Plan A" without knowing what it was, once I'd found the MB materials. I read SAA in July of this year, after I'd found this place, and I did everything I could - maybe it wasn't the "perfect" Plan A but I started trying to put the MB concepts into place.

I am just having the kind of day today where I don't think I will make it to Christmas. I know things are worse right now because of what is going on with H's dad, and that is weighing him down as well. But I want to support him through this, I want to care for him. He's losing his father and I just want to be there for him. He just won't let me in anymore.

GO, you said:

I feel like I am banging my head against the brick wall of his withdrawal. And how many times does one bang one's head against a brick wall before realizing that the wall always wins?

Could he be triggering over the time of year? Your FR/trickle truth happened over the holidays, and the season might be a strong trigger for him, reminding him of that period.

Just a random thought.

And a good random thought at that.

WPG, you are heading down a similar path, from a different direction. That path didn't work for you the last time, what makes you think it would work this time? What makes you think that throwing your hands up and walking away this time would be any better than the last?

Think about that.

In fact, it may be what he expects, what he's waiting for. Maybe he just can't convince himself that you really want to be there. It's a MARATHON, a 2-5 year marathon, and you are hitting the first "mile" marker. You are getting gassed - you know where the finish line is, your legs, arms, chest, and lungs are burning, your eyes are dry. You KNOW you can finish... or you can give in to this exhaustion. You KNOW what's at the finish line, you KNOW what the reward is, but if you walk away, that reward will never be yours. You do deserve that prize.

YOU BOTH DESERVE THAT PRIZE.

I honestly don't know. It's possible. He recovered so much information from the computer dealing with my A, and I trickle-truthed him for so long, that he seems to have a lot of triggers, whether the time of year, a date, a word or phrase, a place (that isn't a DJ, he's said as much). I've tried to help with the triggers, when I see that it looks like he has something on his mind I ask if he would like to talk about anything, I try to encourage conversation. I've sent him things like the "Managing memories" thread just as kind of an "I'm-thinking-of-you-and-thought-you'd-find-this-interesting" kind of way - with no pushing or follow-up (it's hard to direct someone to info while trying to avoid making a DJ by making them feel like you are "educating" them, KWIM?)

I do believe a lot of the "right now" stuff is due to also having to deal with his father dying. It's like he's overwhelmed, and when he's with me he just shuts down. We've even stopped cuddling on the couch and watching our TV shows we DVR, which to be honest was about all the UA time we get (I know TV time doesn't "count," but the more time we'd spend cuddling it would usually lead to other things, whether that's going out to dinner or shopping together or whatever). We spend maybe a few minutes together in the evenings after the kids are in bed and then he goes to bed. He's up before me and gone in the mornings. Emails and texts I send throughout the day get no response unless I ask a direct question ("Do you need me to stop and buy cigarettes?" ).

But too, I'm running this school here at work and it ties me up later than normal. I keep in contact w/him to let him know when I will be leaving, and been holding myself to no later than 7 PM (my day normally ends at 5:30) so I can get home and see the girls before bed and spend time with him. Today will be pretty much the last late day - and then I'll be back to a more normal schedule, for what that's worth. The late work hours are probably triggering as well, since he doesn't trust I am doing what I say I am doing anymore.

So I'm trying to put everything into that perspective. I can't expect him to want to work on our M when he's also dealing with this. So part of me feels like I am being completely insensitive. The other part just feels...empty.

It won't be any better. I'll be miserable without him. Maybe he'll be miserable without me. But we're BOTH miserable together, right now, the way I see it... *sigh*

Pre-A I wasn't happy b/c I wasn't having my needs met. I didn't know how to communicate that to H. The ways I tried to communicate weren't ways he could understand. I'd whine, "I'm not happy." He'd reply, "It's not my job to make you happy." I'd say, "I'd like us to see a counselor together." He'd reply, "What for? I'm not the one with the problem, you're the one with the problem." I couldn't understand why, if he loved me, couldn't he see what I needed? And I loved him the way I wanted to be loved and couldn't understand why he didn't do that in return. Eventually I became bitter and resentful, disrespectful to him, and convinced myself he didn't give two cent's about my so-called "happiness."

Enter POSOM, on FB. Wow, is it really you? Can't believe I found you again!



I've thought the same. That he wants me to be the one to give up. I do know what the reward is, and I want it more than I've ever wanted anything in my entire life...but he was always the strong one. He's so much stronger than I am. I don't know how much longer I can keep it together.

[quote=wulffpack_Pre-A I wasn't happy b/c I wasn't having my needs met. I didn't know how to communicate that to H. The ways I tried to communicate weren't ways he could understand. I'd whine, "I'm not happy." He'd reply, "It's not my job to make you happy." I'd say, "I'd like us to see a counselor together." He'd reply, "What for? I'm not the one with the problem, you're the one with the problem." I couldn't understand why, if he loved me, couldn't he see what I needed? And I loved him the way I wanted to be loved and couldn't understand why he didn't do that in return. Eventually I became bitter and resentful, disrespectful to him, and convinced myself he didn't give two cent's about my so-called "happiness."

Enter POSOM, on FB. Wow, is it really you? Can't believe I found you again!

[/quote]

OMG This is exactly my situation !

WPG

Everyone nees to vent.

I hope you dont' around home like you do here. Having a desparate wife frantic for recovery to be done NOW is not an enticing presentation for a BH.

Being your not being told anything really new here accept that you know everything that has to be done so just do it an let time run it's course.

Your BH is not going to wake up after a nap and say I'm recovered. It is a process that moves so slow that you will never see the changes happen on a daily basis.

It is as your making a loaf of bread. As you need the dough and set it aside to rise. You can't see the changes in the dough as it rises. Check the dough every minute you won't notice any change. Check the dough after an hour an the difference will make it feel magic just happened.

Having a good wife, home, well cared for children has to make a BH say you this place never looked so good before. Why did I want to leave again, I think i'll stay.

Also many a BH plays the victim to the hilt. They don't want an RA. Either they believe it's wrong, or wrong to use someone just to be their OW, or not have one for lack of confidence in their game to get an OW to have an RA.

Stop empowering your BH's game by being desparate.

Well - didn't you say you have run marathons? How do you get that second wind?

Suck it up!

I ran long distance in high school - I am nothing of the build for distance - I ran my races purely on heart. Desire and drive.

You say that he is much stronger than you... can I fill in the next line; "He is my rock."

FWW tells me this. Well... you kinda tossed your rock. You demonstrated you didn't "need" him.

I had that feeling for a long time, and just had another nail driven into it.

And remember this; while you may have loved him the way you wanted him to love you it doesn't mean that it was the way he wanted you to love him. Toss that resentment aside, WPG. You had it wrong. FWW and I had it wrong. A lot of us had it wrong. It sucks, but that's what we are trying to fix!

He is probably guilty of the same thing I am; looking at failed M's in his family, and acting in a manner which he believed would avoid those failings... and only finding another way to fail.

I thought I was doing the right thing allowing myself to be the last thing on the list, allowing myself to subsist off of scraps of my FWW's time. It's that sacrifice thing - I had no idea what it would eventually cost me.

Head out of the muck. FIGHT!

Have you heard this one yet?



I realized something this morning. When I went to have lunch with FWW, I had to tell her.

I told her that I would walk through he77 for her, and she gave me the chance... and she is walking with me. Her willingness to face the damage she has done, her endurance to do so is something I have just realized is really making me fall for her all over again.

Burn with your H WPG... endure.

No, I don't vent at home. We never talk about the A, or our M, anymore. Although I did mention last night about finding OM's cell number in H's phone.

Me: I have something I need to tell you, I was looking for [FIL's wife]'s cell phone # in your phone...
H: (interrupts) She doesn't have a cell phone, it's Dad's cell phone.
Me: Oh, sorry, I didn't know. But I was looking and I found OM's cell number instead. (pause for response)
**Crickets Chirping***
And then I admit I just wussed out and dropped it. Didn't bring up the text I found. Said something about how I know he has a lot on his mind lately, and that I wanted him to know I was here for him if there was anything he needed to talk about or needed me to do for him.

I guess I just wish that things were noticed. Not the everyday, mundane stuff but when I do things that are "extras." Like with the EN of admiration. I always try to make an effort to thank H for the things he does, to show appreciation, to compliment. A "thank you" is such a little thing, but they are words I'd like to hear almost as much as "I love you."


My parents think he's punishing me. But they are completely biased, being my parents. I try not talking to them so much about it and I asked them to respect our M and even though I knew they wanted to, not to interfere, to let H and I work through things. I don't mean to vent so much on here and I am sorry for those of you who hate reading my venting and whining...but if I'm not talking to my folks, I really don't have anyone else to talk to. I want to be able to talk to H but we just don't talk anymore. I can talk, sure, but he pays attention to the computer or the TV.

Hey - wait - hang on a sec - furthest I've run is a 10K! But I get your point!!!

Yes, my actions demonstrated that to him. I wish I could change that. Because I always did "need" him - and still do - but based on what I did it makes that impossible for him to believe. He literally saved me when we met years ago - straightened me out, gave me a life boat when I was drowning myself.

Bingo! One thing I learned in addition to the different EN's was how we can speak different "love languages" - for example, my love language is words of affection/appreciation and physical touch, while H (as best as I can figure, since he would not take the assessment) is acts of service.

He has said as much to me. That he thought that he was doing the right thing by working every day, providing, taking care of the house, and when the girls were born being a doting, involved father. What was missing in the whole equation was me. He never saw an example of a good husband-wife relationship.

It's not that I am desperate for a complete and total instant recovery - I don't mean to sound that way. I understand that healing takes time. I do not expect or ask for an overnight revelation on his part. The only thing I want is a sense that he is willing to try the MB plan, and I don't have that sense at all. He's read SAA and most of the material on this website and has been exposed to MB for about 6 months now. He has no interest in talking with JC or reading any of the other books that go beyond SAA. Everything that I have read tells me that our recovery does not have a plan if only one of us is on it - am I wrong?

PS - Just saw your post, HHH, the video...yeah, that's one of the songs H listens to. Painful. That and Bang Bang She Shot Me (K'Naan? K'Nane?). Music gives you a good idea where someone is emotionally. I have been listening to an older one (90's, lol getting old) by Stabbing Westward, What Do I Have To Do, which tells you where I am at these days.