Thanks Pep.

I'm assuming your son knew he was adopted from the very beginning. It just seems so much easier to explain something like adoption. I've even seen cute little picture books that you can use to introduce the concept to adopted children. This just seems so much harder with an OC. There certainly isn't a picture book (or any book for that matter) to help us explain this situation to our little girl.

This just feels like such uncharted territory. I assume most adopted children know that they are adopted. I would venture to say that most OC's do not know they are OC's. It seems like a situation that is generally kept quiet. So, if I want to tell my child the truth, there isn't much help out there in regards to how to do so.

And I do feel as though telling her the truth is the right thing to do. In our situation, there is a danger in waiting too long as well, since literally everyone in both of our families knows. My older kids (especially my daughter) sometimes talk about it, even in front of the baby. That's fine for now, since she doesn't really understand, but it could be a problem when she gets older. I don't want her to accidentally overhear something and find out in that way.

We have 2 adopted kids.
Brother & sister.
Son adopted age 3.
So obviously he knew up front.
He was more concerned with the wagon he was getting, and trips to the park, and walks to the nearby construction site to watch all the trucks.

Daughter adopted at age 8 months.
So, pre-verbal obviously the adoption issue was introduced later.

It's not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Relax.
It's going to be OK.
You'll be fine.
Don't worry about this now.
It's not today's cheese. Yanno?

True, at the moment, her biggest concern seems to be what kind of cereal she's going to eat for breakfast.

Today's cheese: My son is coming home tonight at midnight!!! I am beyond excited!

This is brilliant news, writer. Good luck for all your futures.

I am SO HAPPY, writer!! I have 2 sons myself and I couldn't bring myself to read your thread anymore because it was just too heartbreaking. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{writer}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank goodness it is almost over!!

Melody I also have been here for 10 years, although I did take some time away when I just read and rarely posted.

I have seen many views from the He!! bent LynnG's to the compassion and sound reasoning K's and JL's.

All I am trying to do is explain that there are as with everything alternative paths down this pumpy road.

I completely understand and agree that NC from an A is mandatory. But when the OC is added it changes all the rules.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree with the black and white issue and too much trust leading to my W's A.

If my marriage was whole then all teh "trust" in the world could never have lead her to her A. It was the sad state of my marriage and us both being blind to it that did that

Writer I agree with you that with our 30 days from being 9 yo OC that conversation way out there. I know the types of questions she asks and they don't sound anywhere near those.

And Road don't forget the inevitable "Why?" to every answer you gave along with the look of "Huh?" in that 8 yo's eyes with those explainations

Unfortunately, this dangerous advice conflicts with Dr Harley's. Nowhere does Dr Harley say there are "alternative paths" down this bumpy road. Nowhere. He says just the opposite when he says "even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous." All the rules are not changed when there is an OC and Dr Harley makes that clear. It is even more important to strictly adhere to NC when there is an OC involved. There is so much more at stake so it is even more imperative to observe sane boundaries.

I understand you have chosen to dismiss and ignore Dr Harley's sound, professional expertise, but I would ask you to show some compassion and refrain from misleading newcomers here with this advice. That is not fair to those who come here in dire straits for sound advice.

pops, I used to smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day. I stopped 12 years ago and have not suffered any ill health. However, I would never advise anyone to follow my path and smoke. I hope you think about that before you tell others here they can risk their marriage like you do by ignoring Dr Harley's tried and true advice.

You know Melody when I 1st suspected my W of falling into an A we went to a very reputable MC. His advice was for me to stop chasing the rabbit b/c the faster I chase her the faster she runs away.

I disagreed with his expert and professional advice but I backed off

The next week was the start of her physical A.

You see sometimes even the experts need to open their eyes and accept there are different paths thru life.

I do not dismiss and or ignore Dr Harley's advice. I do however lean toward taking all advice and determining what works best for my individual circumstance. The same thing I recommend everyone to do

Are asking me to not say what has and is working for us and that the MB philosiphies are the to be followed blindly by all.

pops, do you understand that people come here to learn about Marriage Builders? That is the purpose of this website. It is to not hear the personal philosophies of those who have screwed up our own marriages.

I would argue that your own way is not working for you by virtue of the fact that your marriage has no sane boundaries in place. I would suggest that it is YOU who needs to open his eyes, and not Dr Harley. I don't think you have the slightest idea what constitutes recovery and are existing in a blind state of limbo where you pretend you have "trust." I question what you call "recovery" when your WW is triggered on a routine basis. That would be like me having the occasional drink and calling myself "recovered." That is not recovery, that is to stay in a perpetual state of withdrawal where the drink stays top of mind. If you don't believe that your wife's OM is not top of mind, then you are blind. A person who is in a perpetual state of withdrawal cannot begin to do the necessary work towards recovery. That is not possible.

And yes you do dismiss Dr Harleys' tried and true advice. You contradict the sound professional advice of a licensed psychologist who has an amazing track record when you have no track record yourself. None. He has saved thousands of marriages. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages. So it is the height of arrogance to come on a forum provided at the expense of Dr Harley and substitute your own opinion for his tried and true professional advice.

That's ok for you to take foolish risks in your own marriage, but how do you justify telling despairing newcomers that its ok to do the same?

I think its very disrespectful - and irrational - of you to use the bad advice of some other MC as an excuse to dismiss Dr Harley's advice on his forum. That makes no sense. Dr Harley's advice that there be no contact for life can't be disputed and you know it.

It is not the experts who need to open their eyes, but you, pops. Your advice that it is OK for affair partners to stay in touch is marriage wrecking, dangerous advice that you can't possibly defend. I have been on this forum for 10 years and the advice you are giving is sure to lead to a resumption of the affair at worst and a state of perpetual withdrawal at best.

There is absolutely no excuse to put a marriage at such risk.

"8 years old: How is a birth dad different then "dad"? People are humans but reproduce like other creatures. You know about birds, they lay eggs and then the eggs hatch an out comes new baby bird. Some animals keep their eggs inside until the creature is ready to be born. Then out comes a live baby. As the momma dogs give birth to live puppies, human mommas do the same so there."

Theres wild life shows on tv all the time where animals are born. Birds, reptiles, the egg/baby develops outside the moher. Mamamls and we are mamals the egg/baby develops inside the mothers body.

Explanation kept simple makes sense the child has no more questions then. Keep answers general is the way to keep the answers age appropriate.

Why? Is easy. Especially if your family practices a religion.

Why did you get involved with the OM?

I have poor judgement.
I let myself be tempted to do wrong.
I had poor boundaries and let people be my friend that I should of not.
I ignored the warning signs that the OM was temptimg me to misbehave, true friends don't encourage friends to misbehave.

I'm not good at expressing myself and a poor writer on top of that but the way I am coming up with things to tell the OC then it's a job not hard to do.

Melody

I don't doubt that Dr Harley has had enormous success in saving thousands of marriages.

I have said nothing disrespectful about either him or his principles

I know you have been here for 10 years. Like I said I have been here with you for 10 years

I actually read Dr Harley's book HN/HN at least 10 - 12 years before I discovered this site. Thought it was great then and still do think it is great now. I recommend it to many many people and all young people I know who are starting out.

I have never given "it is my way or the highway" advice to anyone as is being argued by you here.

I have heard Dr harley on the radio say how our own Faithful Follower's marriage is doomed because she is not following his principles to the T.

Success or not doesn't that seem a bit arrogant. And I don't mean that disrespectfully.

And I don't mean this disrespectfully either but Dr Harley is a man, made of flesh and blood. He is not a God. Yes he has a sound set of guidelines for recovering a marriage. BUT that doesn't mean it will fit ALL situations.

even you have to admit that although these situations all have similarities they are all far from the same. Each with it's own individual circumstances.

Is your situation exactly like FH and mine? no. Is ours exactly like Writer's? no

So how can you say one size fits all

You know I have always admired you and your advice. I do find it quite arrogant for you to try and tell me that my marriage is not recovered or is in a state of limbo because we didn't follow the same system as you. I didn't think that was your style

To save you the time from reading back I will say it again. the contact my w has with om is thru text messages when 99% of the time I am sitting in the room. The message may say "oc is sick do you still want to take your visit." or "her soccer games are at 8, 12 and 3:30 this weekend."

nothing more nothing less.

do I trust my w? YES

I find it quite disheartening that so many find it impossible to accept that something that differs from there opinion can work.

especially on a forum like this where there are so many variables

I would love to discuss this with Dr Harley in person. Maybe I can call into his radio show sometime



Road walk a mile in my shoes then try to give me the same advice

I know, I know, you don't have to shot someone to know that guns kill people.

WRONG, PEOPLE kill people with guns

Try my shoes on then we'll talk more

pops, what is arrogant and disrespectful is to come on Dr Harley's website that he offers for free and dispute his principles and mislead newcomers without ever once defending your stance. You and I both know you can't defend your bad advice.

Your bad advice has not worked for you and it has not worked for others. Why oh why you want to spread that misery to others is baffling to me.

You said not long ago that your own marriage was shaky so it is shocking that you have the nerve to give advice here that is contradictory to Dr Harley when it doesn't even work for you.

Dr Harley was RIGHT when he said in the mission statement above:


You do this as a guest on a board that is provided by Dr Harley.


And conversely, you are a man, made of flesh and blood. You are not a God. The difference is that he knows how to save marriages, YOU DON'T. He can point to his track record in addition to his successful, happy marriage. You can't. Yet, here you are on his forum contradicting him when your own advice has not even worked for you. So your own guidelines don't even fit YOUR situation.

That is real arrogance, pops.

One thing I do know for sure is that I now have you on my watch list so I can watch and see what you are saying to newcomers. If I see you giving bad advice to newcomers again, I will be reporting you to the moderators.

You do realize it is AGAINST TOS to post your crap to newcomers? You are free to do what you want in your own life, but you are not free to use Dr Harley's freely given forum to mislead and confuse newcomers.

pops, folks should know the state of your own marriage when you give advice that is contrary to Dr Harley. Dr Harley backs up his advice with thousands of success stories and one of the highest rated marriage programs in the US. He personally has a great marriage. He puts his OWN marriage out there as proof of his success.

It would be one thing to contradict Dr Harley if your own agenda had worked for you, but we know it hasn't. You were talking about separation just 2 short months ago:

On the thread "DNA test or not?" 26 September 2010:


I am not trying to be mean, but if your own program doesn't even work for you, why are you recommending it to others? It is clear your marriage is not in recovery and I know why. You have not even taken the first step towards recovery, pops. Your wife is emotionally invested elsewhere as any WW would be who is still in contact with her OM. Like Harley says, recovery is impossible until all contact ends. That has proven true in your case.

pops

When their is doubt what is wrong with seeking the truth?

Years ago a blood test could only prove guilt never innocence that a W was a WW, it could never prove that she wasn't.

Now paternity can be proven.

Melody

quite frankly what is arrogant and disrespectful is your accusations that i am

disputing dr harley's principles -- please show me where i said poja, complete honesty or even nc does not work. i have only offered support to those who are considering c if they feel their circumstances warrant it. instead of preaching gloom and doom of there's no way possible

gave misleading advice to anyone -- i have only told what is "working" for us (whether you choose to believe it or not) and that it was not an easy road. i have never adviced anyone to follow my path

that my marriage is not recovered -- and this from your professional (?) opinion or from your not being able to understand how many ways there are to skin a cat

Melody please read this next part very carefully. there is no disrespect meant toward the dr harley.

YES he has saved thousands of marriages. that is a great thing
but has he saved 100% of the marriages he has tried to save? even with the best principles they DO NOT work for EVERYONE.

If my w had gone complete NC and followed the mb principles to the T we would be divorced today regardless of dr harley's principles. guaranteed.

now in reference to my discussing separation 2 months back. again please read i said

"however some problems have arisen these past few months in our marriage that have led to talks of separation between the 2 of us. NOT A STUFF but just with the many stress's that we are facing right now."

FTR it had to do with some health issues and more importantly FINANCES. with the present economic clusterf$#k the country is in we were facing foreclosure. we were looking at different possibilites of what would work best and be the least intrusive on our 5 children still in the homes lives.

And we were able to getthru them by coming to an agreement with the POJA.

Oh my gosh !! a mb priciple !! yes we do use them. go figure and this from a guy who disputes them. remember melody i told youthat i started trying to follow dr harley's ideas 20 years ago with his needs/her needs.

glad to hear that i am on your radar. apparently i have crossed "your" line and i always say keep your enemys where you can see them.

let me ask how this system works once the target is on your back. if and when i am reported to the moderators do i get the opportunity to discuss the situation with them or is one just banned?


Road there is NOTHING wrong with the truth. only who one hurts with it.

and if you re-read what i wrote to gamma you will see that my interest was only with how his relationship would change with his son of like 20 years if i remember correctly

do you have an arguement about that?

Why do you believe this, pops? What would have been worse in your marriage with NC?

pops, Dr Harley's credentials are not suspect here. Yours are. He has saved thousands of marriages, you have saved exactly NONE. His principles have worked for thousands, yours have worked for NONE. They don't even work for you. So who should we listen to? So when you tell people that ending contact with their OP is not necessary or that the solution is not "black and white" you are giving bad advice. Advice that has not worked for you.

But even so, if you know better than Dr Harley, then why not start your own forum? Why peddle your program on a website paid for by him? Does that seem fair?


This is from your own words that you were on the verge of separation just 2 short months ago. This is 10 years after her affair. The fact that your marriage is crumbling 10 years later tells the whole story. Whether the pressing problem be finances, children, whatever, it is clear you have not mastered any of the basic concepts leading to a restoration of romantic love. And we know that can't be done as long as your wife is still in contact with her lover. You can deny that all you want, but Dr Harley predicts that recovery is impossible your way, and guess what?? Coincidentally, your marriage is not recovered!

pops, I have no doubt you mean well and are a nice guy, but I would ask you to show some compassion and intelligence when posting to newcomers. And show some respect for Dr Harley. You and I both know you don't know how to save marriages so it is wrong of you to give newcomers advice that didn't even work for you. Dr Harley provides this forum to help people in need and you shouldn't interfere with that goal.

I'd like to know the answer to this question as well. It doesn't really make sense to me. Why would your marriage have been over if your wife had wanted NC with the OM and you both decided to follow MB principles?

Yep, even our bios can be just as vile. It may not have been the best response but my DD when she was a preteen would use the "I hate you" line on me and my response was "fine, shall I take you to the new mommy store?". Not a threat, just a "you can't get under my skin" response.

BTW, in this line of thinking I am fully expecting one day to hear "you are not my mother" from the OC. I would be shocked if I didn't, honestly. I just hope I can keep my own tongue in check about his "mother" at that point, lol.