That, (unless you guys all did ask permission of your spouses/SO's in that case I'll shut up)what is discussed in this thread is basically against the law and that one shouldn't count on overwhelming evidence when using the spyware for a courtcase...

Oh no, it depends on the state's laws. In most states it is perfectly legal to place spyware on your compouter. Parents do it all the time to monitor their children. All states are different. In some states, BS's have even used the logs to support grounds of adultery in divorce cases! It is awesome.

And even in those where is not admissable in court, it served to inform the BS of an affair, which helped him take action against the affair. So, even if the intel is not admissable in court, it is still helpful.

But you do make a good point, every BS should check with his state's laws before he does anything. And if in doubt, hire a PI! A PI is much more effective anyway, wouldn't you agree?

There are myriad ways to uncover a cheater, one just has to be creative.

Yeah well a PI would be more effective but I'm not sure it's legal in my parts (Europe) to hire someone like that, other than that I agree that one has to be careful with the snooping. Also I'd like to mention that being spied on (at least that's how it feels to me) when completely innocent, like what is happening to me, isn't the most pleasant feeling in the world...

If you have nothing to hide from the most important person in your life, then you should be ACTIVELY transparent with the details of your life.

[tj]
@FadingOut - have you read about the EN for Open and Honest?
[/tj]

That is a curious statement, since your H has a right to know everything you do. Why would you have a problem with him snooping? And how does he know you are innocent if he doesn't snoop?

From your posts, it sounds to me like your H has every reason to snoop. You have very poor boundaries and engage in behavior that is risky to your marriage.

Fadingout, based on what you told me, I would be very suspicious if I were your husband because of your lifestyle and your curiously callous attitude towards his concerns. Why would a spouse threaten divorce over jealousy if not to attempt to prevent that spouse from finding something out? A loving spouse would take steps to alleviate the jealousy; you did the opposite. You threatened your spouse.

And I hope that he has hired a PI, because I predict if he doesn't have cause for concern today, he will in the future.

I smell baiting.

Excuse me but my husband is the one who cheated on me three times and while I admit I've not recovered the marriage from that properly and that threatening divorce is probably childish I really don't see any need to call my lifestyle "suspicious" I'm reading up on Dr Harley's works and I'm not sure I agree with everything anyway, I don't completely understand why my therapist refered me to this site anyway. But aside from that: I do tell my husband where I am going if I travel without him and where he can reach me and I have my cellphone with me and on at all times and I always answer his calls, when my husband goes somewhere w/o me I trust that he speaks the truth about that. He can follow me around, check my whereabouts, of course, but it gets tiresome that after all these years he still doesn't really believe me.

Yes, he can follow you around and then he gets threatened with "divorce" when he expresses his displeasure at your lifestyle. In other words, you punish him for expressing concern about your boundary LESS lifestyle.

I have no idea why you would "trust" a husband you say cheated 3 times, that makes no sense. But it also makes no sense that your solution to your H's anxiety is not to stop tormenting him, but to divorce him.

Your lifestyle is suspicious and is an affair waiting to happen. Your H has every reason to be concerned. You want to be "believed" but are not willing to do the things to effect that belief, such as ending your travel and objecting to snooping.

Think on this: it is not a lack of trust that destroys marriages, but a lack of boundaries. This has proven true in your marriage.

I can't imagine why. Your H is doing this because he feels threatened. Wouldn't you welcome something that would assuage his concerns? And you don't have to even lift a finger - all you have to do is be yourself.

Oh, whew! Is that what that smell is? I was checking the bottoms of my shoes!

Your M appears to be built upon expectations. Why not just affair-proof it and be done with it?

Well having read all this and the advice "to be myself" I doubt I can find anything helpful on this site. I'm also going to quit seeing my therapist who originally refered me to this site.

And as for the advice "to be myself" heh...I have to work and it has to be this rather well paying job, how else do you expect a �2,000,000 mortgage being paid off? So sorry it includes business trips w/o him but that is just a part of me and my life, I'm always myself, trust me on that.

Also I think you guys have some mental health problems, a marriage is built on trust, I truly believe that, Elvis believed it too (see my sig), you lot seem to be rather...stalkerish. Some of the methods used here, I could probably inform the police or something but I'm not that childish, I just think it is rather...insane.

I shall be on my merry way and leave you lot alone and talk to a lawyer about filing the divorce and finalizing it, it'll be a relief for me (and in a way for him too, probably).

Take care all!

I suspect you're probably right.
Good luck.

Admittedly, you aren't interested in marriage building or the concepts on this site and your opinion should matter to us WHY?

If you valued your M and suspected an A, maybe this thread would make sense to you. Please.

Excellent point. Of course, Elvis also believed in the benefits of peanut-butter, bacon and fried banana sandwiches. How'd that work out for him?

A �2,000,000 mortgage and a marriage both being paid off to the same schedule - good life-choice.

As Dr Phil would say, how's that working for ya?

My relatives knew Elvis. Actually E had people who were PI's working for him. He would have been ok with this stuf so you're wrong. Waaaay wrong.

Marriages are built on trust, but when one becomes a Wayward Spouse, they lose that ability to have their partner trust them.

maybe on some other planet your theories work FadingOut. I simply hope you have a good life. But do be warned...sometimes even lawyers use private eyes and spying techniques too. Just to protect their client.

I am not so sure what is so bad about simply d.i.y.'ing things yourself (finding out the truth) rather than paying a lawyer thousands to find out for you?

Imho, that's silly. Personally after my divorce I was glad to dump the crazy man onto the ow. But you know what? I'm glad I snooped as much as I did because my dear son, a very little boy at the time, had one parent, the main provider (the ws) who left our home, our family, started a new one, and had no problem screwing over his own little boy to make sure his new nest with the other woman was feathered properly. Get it?

Of course there is an alternative. I call it the 'ostrich approach'. This is where you simply dole out money to a lawyer, trust they do the right things (some do, som don't) and dig a nice hole into the sand and insert your head until you feel it's safe enough to come back out and into reality again.

Some things I was wondering about, since this is about spying and stuff.

First...

Yes, a wandering spouse has betrayed the trust of the marriage. I am just as guilty as it as my wife was, in my case.

However...

By using such deceitful means as recorders, keyloggers, programs, GPS, etc....aren't you being just as trust-breaking?

I am not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the other side of the fence.

I'm on the side of the fence that feels that spying, using un-known and nearly undetectable means, is just as trust-breaking as committing the affair itself.

The whole "two wrongs don't make a right".

I'm always willing to have an open mind and try to understand the other points of view...thats one thing I'm quite capable of doing is changing my mind when ably persuaded


* * * * * *

What are Federal (and state) laws about installing software on someones property without their knowledge?

I realize that the Michigan lady says he hacked her account...but if he already had her password (as he says) then how is that really hacking (a rhetorical question).

But if you install a keylogger/whatever on a computer that the spouse primarily uses (whether it be work or personal)....how do you think that'd "jive" with the law?

In my state, for example, the following state law says:

"It is unlawful for a person who is not an owner or operator of a computer to transmit computer software to such computer knowingly or with conscious avoidance of actual knowledge, and to use such software to do any of the following:

a. The use of a keystroke logging function that records keystrokes made by an owner or operator of a computer and transfers that information from the computer to another person.

3. Prevent, through intentionally deceptive means, an owner's or an operator's reasonable efforts to block the installation of, or to disable, computer software by causing computer software that the owner or operator has properly removed or disabled to automatically reinstall or reactivate on the computer."

I agree with rush that I think that marriages are built on trust. Someone else mocked the saying that most marriages are destroyed due to lack of trust, but rather said that most marriages are destroyed through lack of boundaries. Yes, it could be true that one way marriages are destroyed is due to lack of boundaries. However, that is not to say that trust does not play a major role.

I once went out with a guy (let's call him insecure boy) who was constantly accusing me of this or that when I had done nothing to warrant this. He had come out of a previously rough relationship and had been cheated on in the past, so he was just an insecure individual and I was very understanding of that. However, nonetheless eventually it gets old and fast. He would get upset at me whenever I even wanted to step foot outside the house, whether it was to shop to to hang out with the other girls. He would call me about 5 times for each hour I was out of the house. There was no trust. Yes, that lack of trust ended our relationship pretty quickly. You all do realize that there could be boundaries and all in place, and the relationship could still fail due to lack of trust right?

Now back on the topic of boundaries. I think one such boundary that we should observe is that of privacy. Innocent until proven guilty. There is a reason why privacy is protected by the constitution. Sure, you could make the argument that as long as we're not doing anything wrong we should have nothing to hide right? But would you seriously advocate that the government monitor all of our computers, phone conversations, etc (I'm almost afraid to ask this since I think some of the people on this message board might actually be supportive of this line of thinking)? Now I DO think that if you have very good suspicions that your spouse is cheating then go ahead and gather evidence, install keyloggers, and what have you. HOWEVER, in the event that you have done some monitoring and find nothing, I think you do owe it to your spouse to tell them what you have been doing and apologize profusely.

Now I'm not trying to attack anyone's points of views here, so don't get upset. However, I am trying to present a different point of view on this matter, and to not think so narrowly along the lines of "if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear"