Schoolbus,

I have taken the time to look back at how I was during our time together, but I feel that to get a true picture, I need my wife to do the same thing for the same period of time.

I can look back and say that I feel that at a specific time I was meeting these needs, but maybe missing on other needs of my wife. But chances are, my wife probably has a different version because of all that I did (then and now), so I really need to match her version against mine.

For the longest time, my focus was on me and getting what I wanted. I put my needs first and everyone else was second best.

If I thought that I was meeting her needs, it was probably a need that benefited me. That is why I need to understand what she was thinking at the time.

I feel that if I say that I was doing this well, we may be able to agree that I was, but that it was because that is what I wanted or maybe we will agree that I was at least trying to meet a need.

I don't know if this will give my wife the answers that she is seeking, but I know that I want to try.

NP CGIR, I have been working a lot and been out of the house, but have been following your posts.

I am trying to interject when i think I have something useful to say, bus SB seems to have my mind on this too. So I am just observing.

I am glad you are working so hard at making your marriage be all that it can be, its the only way to go IMO. I am sure your wife is noticing and I pray you will both come closer because of this attention towards each other. I can't see why you wouldn't.

Hope you have a great night.

God Bless

I know what that means, I too have done that and felt totally justified. The key of course was that I did not ask what they wanted, or explained my position....so it was communication then.

But you are doing that now in this process, you have gotten older and wiser and can see how it was wrong. You have grown past that time when we were young and insecure, and moved into a time of accoutability and where you can see how you affected others. Good, if thats not progress then I don't know what.

I guess thats where the policy of enthusiastic agreement comes in. When a couple communicates and discusses everything in thier lives together, and enthusiastically agrees to give it a try, EVEN if they have reservations, they can share the result together whether it be reward or defeat.

One key in this to work is radical unashamed complete transparency and honesty, and there is where layers of self deception can be peeled away as the honesty goes deeper as you reason together. If you agreed to something that was destructive to yourselves or the marriage it would be because you didn't dig deep enough and honestly assess that "something".

Its wonderful that you are trying to know each other again. Many times it is knowing a whole different person. You have based a lot on who you knew at one time, and how they have changed from that. What is missed is that they are as special and unique as they allways were. You just were not there to share those changes with them. The tragedy is when the past is not put behind and when the hurt is not forgiven but instead you each becaome the reason for each others sadness because you see it that way. But it is really just a perception. If you take the blame out of the picture you see two people who made mistakes and are willing to do whatever they can to correct them. Just like someone you meet for the first time who could share the same story, as you felt for them also.

Its the guilt, blame and shame that Christ died on the cross for us for. He didn't do that to negate the truth but to set us free to live within it without fear. You now know what is true, you are willing to learn and change how you act, and therefore who you are and how you percieve and understand the world as it applies to the most important thing in it, our relationships with each other.

There is no condemnation when you admit you need help in this life reguardless of what time you do, and change, a synomym for repent. You have changed, and you with Gods grace continue to, and you don't have to catch up to be confidant you are going in the right direction now. Now as you see it is right you will most likely seek life with a fervent desire to keep going in this direction. Thats what we all can only hope to do.

I pray you and your wife will mend and put in the past what has hurt your life together. If you have to dig deep to understand why thats reasonable but what is more important is that you are willing to change all that to live a life together as you find each other again. Then when you both can understand and beleive that the pain that was caused is deeply regretted and change has occured, forgiveness will flow as you wish the other to be free of fear and guilt.

Keep up the good work, we are rooting for ya

Constant,

Thank you for your words of encouragement and support.

As I read your last few sentences, I am getting choked up.

I do hope that we give each other the opportunity to find each other, again. I know that when we first met, I was a person that my wife could be proud of as I was loving and attentive to her needs.

As time went on, I know that I shifted from meeting her needs, to putting my needs first.

I can sit here and say that it was because new things entered my life, new people entered my life and they influenced me/changed the way I thought. I can try to use that as an excuse, but if I think back, I could have chose not to follow them, but continue to follow/value my wife.

I do regret the choices that I have made and hope that over time, my wife can forgive me and hopefully she will feel that I can change, want to change and want to make that change permanent and not fall back after a period of time (as is my history).

Through feedback from people like yourself and Schoolbus, I feel that I have people in my corner that can catch me if I fall, show me where I have made mistakes and point me in the right direction.

Ultimately, I know that I have to do this on my own, but it is good to know that at the start of my recovery, I have a good support group.

Thank you very much.

A note to Schoolbus.

I wanted to let you know that I just finished reading the book, Leadership and Self-Deception.

I can't say that I fully grasp all of the concepts, but do see the trap that I constantly fell into - self betrayal.

I plan on sharing the book with my wife and then taking it back, reading through it again and will create little reminders for myself that I can refer to.

I also know why I was laid off and now find myself still searchig for an opportunity that will allow me to stop constantly commuting for my job and to be home with my wife.

Thank you for the reccommendation and can see why you feel that it would help me figure things out.

This is a very common occurance in men, sometimes it is because they think they are in charge and responsible for everything, and sometimes it is just a selfish power trip, most of the time its a combo of both and the lines are blurred by our perceptions and emotions. I have done that also before and it was all for good things mind you, financial security being what I considered my primary responsibility, with the dream of someday taking wife to the bahamas and celibrating.

Sad to say that day never came. many reasons why. too many to count, but the times that were most preciuos, like yours, were when you were one in vision towards a future together.

I hope you realize that the struggle together is what is preciuos, not that you win that temporal goal even as good as it is, but that you know each of you that the other has your heart in first place of prioritys. Its is not a machavelian <sp> endeavor where the end justifys the means. I know it is temting to think you know what they need but thats IB and DJs result.

You both have a unique opportunity that I believe you are reaching for to anylize your problems and behaviors, throw out the ones that hurt each other, and start a new life together. Every marriage has the potential to destroy or build each other up. Those that have had the most extreme hardships have also rebounded to a more deeper relationship than would have been if they had not had troubles.

I am not advocating looking for trouble and minimizing the pain in the name of a deep bond. I am saying that there is allways hope and love can allways be found.


Keep learning from this site. It encompasses within all its people a support group that is here for you in sharing the pain and triumphs of its members. You too can contribute as you are unique and have experiaenced the pain from making poor choices, and have learned about it first hand.

To me the trick is, when I realize a mistake I have made, I don't dwell on it too long. I anylyse it and how maybe I got there but I change my thinking and behavior to what i now respect as the truth. Even if I have to wait forever for peoples forgivness, I forgive myself as fast as I can and know I am human and falable, but have no excuse for not changing when the truth is right in front of me. Its not all about me,my perceptions, past experiences,or even what people think of me now, its about changing my thinking and behavior to reflect someone I can respect now. The rest can follow later after proven change, or people can choose to continue to berate me even after years of different behavior. The most important respect is self respect. Without that I have nothing and nowhere to go anyways.

You are doing well to be here and learning about the behavior that in your heart you know is right, and changing who you are by action and word. Keep on working, you guys are worth it.

CGIR,


Glad you read the book.

It really changes your perception of decision-making, doesn't it?


The thing that really grabbed me was that I had always noticed that "moment" in time, yet somehow ignored it and let it pass


and went right on ahead and made the self-betraying decision!


Then went forward in life trying to figure out what was going wrong. If only I would have tracked it back to that moment.


Now, those moments are SO CLEAR to me. It is like they have this huge, loud, cracking sound when they happen - accompanied by this shining light! It's so strange to me, that something so seemingly simple can go unnoticed for my whole life

and one simple story can bring it to my attention that it seems like it hits me right between the eyes now every time it happens.


A life-changer, for sure.


I downloaded one of the original author's dissertation and read it (I have University access). It was a wonderful work, and I was just enthralled as I read through one of the groundwork pieces that the book was based on. I know that sounds really nerdy, but this book just explained so much about WHY Schoolbus has done so many stupid things........


and now doesn't do quite as many.


I am glad it helped you.

Also, glad to see that you are going to read it again, and that you see the applicability in real life. Because in your life, it really does apply.

BTW, you are moving in the right direction every day. I don't know anyone who has lived the perfect life, or lost track along the way. We have all messed up.

Your choice to change for the better, to evaluate yourself so thoroughly, to look for criticism and take it, to seek out advice and put it to use, and to look back over your life and pick it over inch by inch - those are tough things to do. Each one that you do with dignity, purpose, honesty, and openness will reap a huge reward for you, your marriage, and your life.


And at some point, you will find something you never had before.

SELF-respect.
You might have thought you had it, but it was built on a house of cards. What you're building now, well, it's the real deal.


SB

Excellent post SB, I got to get off my butt and read that book too.

I could use some light flashing and cracking of thunder in revelation also. lol

Schoolbus,

I was home this weekend and gave the book to my wife to read. I'll be curious as to what her take is on the book.

One tough thing to really understand is when you feel that your spouse is the one that is in the box and you don't feel that you are.

I know that there are times where I feel that I am in a good frame of mind and feel that I am doing the right thing, but it just doesn't seem to make a difference to your spouse.

Understanding that moment and or coming to grips with the fact that you are the one in the box is difficult to grasp.

I easily related work experiences to the book, but have to gain a better understanding as it relates to my relationship.

Probably why I want to read it again and look at it from a personal/marriage perspective.

Thanks for the reccommendation.

Schoolbus.

A question that my wife and I were talking about (as she is just about through the book).

If I am now trying to do whatever is possible to keep my wife - am I in the box or out of it?

The thought is - am I doing everything to keep her because I respect her and want her (out of the box) or am I doing everything because I want to keep her (treated like a possesion - so in the box).

Appreciate your comments.

CGIR,

The motivation for doing what you are doing - should be that you are doing the right thing.

Your sense of this in your life has been selfishness. You have done things for yourself. I see that the dilemma you face is:

Am I saving the marriage because "I" want this? or

Am I saving the marriage because it is the "right" thing to do?

or

Am I working on this for other reasons????


Indeed a philosophical quandary.


Are you in the box......I would say you are not, if you are doing what you know is the right thing.


In the case of a marriage, you are doing the right things:

1. improving yourself as a human being for the sake of the benefit of your wife, and yourself - which benefits the marriage

2. improving your understanding of your vows, and how your past behavior and the changes you need to make impact your marriage now, as well as how your behaviors over time have impacted it.

3. learning the tools to improve the relationship with your wife - and as a result, you will learn how to improve with others (and perhaps not lose jobs!)

4. improving yourself has already resulted in a change in behavior with regard to the way you treat your wife outwardly - consider the activity at the wedding, and how you have defended her, this would not have happened before, which is IN YOUR WIFE'S interest, not your own (this is definitely not in the box)

5. showing a willingness to expose your weaknesses to your wife, allow for open criticism by her, and accepting direction from complete strangers (such as myself) to make changes which would benefit the marital relationship (out of the box, because it is not selfish to expose this side of oneself, it is completely counter-selfish)


So, I would say that in many ways, while saving the marriage and the relationship would benefit you, it is not a selfish activity in the sense that you might consider it. The fact is, your wife has the choice to walk away - she is complicit in the activity of marital recovery as it were, it is a joint effort. A joint effort is not selfish in this case, because it is a mutually beneficial activity


meant to improve the lives of both of you


and both of you will sacrifice (which is not selfish)

both of you will recognize the taker and the giver, and move toward giving (which is not selfish)

both of you will learn that moment in time when you are betraying yourselves, and move away from it more frequently (which is getting OUT of that box)


and in the end, the marriage ultimately becomes a mutually beneficial relationship


IF

you both stay on track.


So, no, I do not believe you are in the box.



What you are?

worried, scared, fearful

and making changes that feel very different from the life you have led for a long time

and that is a huge change for the BOTH of you.


Because you are both getting out of the box.



By the way


worry only about your own box. You have no control over anyone else but yourself. Your behavior can, and will, change the relationship with everyone around you. Watch and see. Change yourself, and the world changes around you.

It. Is. Magical.


Schoolbus

I love your posts, sb!

Mrs. V,

They don't like me right now over on another thread. But, can't win em all!

Schoolbus,

Thanks for the response.

I do feel that I am doing what I am doing because I know that it is the right thing to do. By that, I mean that I know that I needed to make changes in the way I treated my wife, others and the way that I viewed myself.

I know that I have been selfish and I did see how that selfishness lead to losing a job, almost losing my wife and isolating myself from others.

Also, I am only worried about my own box. I know that the way that I treat others can impact the way others treat me - so if they are in the box towards me, but I show them the respect/consideration they deserve - it wll eventually be given back to me.

Thanks again. Always look forward to your response.

And for those people that follow this thread or look for advice given by Schoolbus - pick up the book that was reccommended so that you can understand the "in/out of the box" references and gain some insight as to how to improve (both your marriage and your career).

CGIR,


You know, you have come a long way since you began posting.

Somewhere in there, you began looking at things from a new perspective - from the perspective of what is "right"

and not

"what is right for ME".


Your view of things seems to have come around to the understanding of how working toward doing the right thing, even when it seems counter-intuitive, even when the other person is in their box against you, can work FOR you.

When I first started doing this, I could not believe the change in my world. It was like someone waved this magic wand, and gave me the key to doors I had never had before.


There was also a calming effect. I worried much less, because I didn't have to figure out justifications for my actions - the actions I took, the decisions I made were just so simply defined.

I'm glad you're feeling better about your life now, and looking forward. The book gave such simple clarity to a difficult concept - but I think it is in the thinking about this that we find our changes. Because you WANT to change, you have changed.

I know you will have others wonder, "Is this change for real? Will it last?"

I think that the effect of this book and its impact on the way you think is so powerful that you will carry it for the rest of your life. It is kind of like seeing the solution to a magic trick - once you know the answer, you cannot help but always see it glaring at you. So it is with self-betrayal. You will know it when you do it, and you will never again want to catch yourself up in that trap.


SB

Schoolbus.

I'm sure you know, but it isn't always easy. When someone is in the box towards you, it isn't easy to be out of the box towards them.

My wife and I just had a nice weekend together (out by my work) and she went home, while I stayed out here for the week.

When she got back, she had a ton of work to do, around the house, for her job as well as taking care of a sick pet. I, on the otherhand, got to stay at my hotel and not have to worry about much other than returning to my stressful job.

Of course, this difference in arrangements caused my wife to forget about the nice weekend and bring up the inequity and deliver love busters and lash out about the past.

All I could do is sympathize with her, which was not good enough, or not what she wanted to hear at the time.

Very difficult to stay out of the box when this was going on.

The old me, probably would have said something that would have caused more of a disagreement. Instead, I apologized, said that I agree, wish that things could change and let her know that I will try and do a ton of things to help out when I am home this weekend.

Maybe I am a different person - or at least I hope that she feels that way.

When you get home, give her a massage - one that ends in nothing for you.


SB

Schoolbus,

Well I didn't take your advice about the massage, but I did do all of the cleaning, wash, decorating for the holidays and shopping so that my wife did not have to worry about that during the upcoming week.

These things I enjoy doing. These things I always try to do when I am home. These things make me feel important and needed. These are things that I do to show my wife that I appreciate what she does when I am away.

Hopefully, my wife knows that I will keep doing all of this when I get home permanently (with a job that allows me to stay home).

I haven't posted for a while as things seem to be going well.

I am trying to stay out of the box, in my relationship with my wife, as well as others.

Also, my past issues with boredom causing me to do something that my wife would not want me to do, has become a thing of the past.

It's not that I am not bored when I am away - I do get bored, but I come on to this site and read what others may be going through or read my past posts and realize that I can't make the choice to do something bad as I do not want to put my wife through what I have in the past.

I am not saying that I am a new person, but I do feel that I have turned the corner and on my way to being what I always should have been for my wife.

Thanks to all that have helped me in the past and I will continue to keep everyone up to date with my progress.

CGIR,

Be the change you desire.


It is really that simple, when it comes down to it.

After you live ethically for awhile, you will find yourself wondering how you ever got to that "other" place.



And if you are bored, I suggest getting a Nook or Kindle. They are handy and always ready for you - and you don't have to tote a bunch of stuff (like books) everywhere with you. Read when you are bored, because you will enlighten yourself and move forward on your path.

You can download SAA, HNHN, and all the rest, too.


SB