And so that I am not threadjacking here. To reply to ML from what you said on that other thread.
According to some people here, I do have expereince with an affair. Supposedly the friend I have has been at times and EA. This "EA" has gone off and on supposedly for years now, but again, nothing physical has ever happened. There continues to be no signs that anything physical will ever happen. I'm not doing it to prove any point. I just think that men and women can be friends and not get physical.
*just a sidenote
My wife herself has a male friend she talks to occasionally. I don't know what they always talk about, I'm not friends with the guy, but I also don't feel like it is a threat, it doesn't make me jealous. I trust her. She has had many guy (girl as well) friends over the years that she speaks to who I am not friends with, I know who they are, quite often meet them, but don't get to know them well.

Let me know when you are ready to stop being a liar. We'll talk after that regarding your M. I'll assume you're suckering her in the meantime. The poor thing,

In the meantime, if I see you trying to counsel the folks who come on here looking for help by giving them your dysfunctional logic...it's not gonna happen, Tom. Sorry. You are not allowed to poison the incomers. Ain't gonna happen.

Serious question....Maritalbliss, what was wrong with trying to focus on that persons other marital issues and not the affair? He seemed to be making it clear he did not want to focus that. So what is wrong with trying to focus on what HE wanted to? I really want to understand that.

Do you think I am lying about those other issues in my marriage? And if those other issues can be solved, and I can be okay with not being completely satisfied with the PA, and be happy in the marriage otherwise, why would I need to tell my wife about that? If I can get past it myself due to the other parts of the marrriage being good, why tell my wife that hurtful thing? I don't see what good it does.

His first issue is his wife's affair. Every else follows. Understood?

And yet, you refuse to show your wife this site or introduce her to any of Dr. Harley's principles. You expect her to learn how to meet your "EN's" even though she's probably never heard of the term. You don't even tell her that there are needs you have that she's not meeting, and then you use the fact that she doesn't meet them as a justification as to why you may divorce her at some point in the future.

How fair is that?

Since he is the one living it, why doesn't he get to decide what his first issue is?
I tell my students, if you don't want to do problem number 1, skip it, get 2-10 done, and come back later to finish. Thats better than spending all your time on number 1 and not getting anywhere. Do the easier things first, then come back to whats hard. ???

But how can the other parts of the marriage improve and "be good" if you don't work this plan WITH YOUR WIFE? How can your wife even work on those other EN's if she doesn't know what needs she isn't meeting?

Why do you refuse to give your wife a fighting chance?

I do try and talk to her about the EN's, in subtle ways. I am not good at being blunt, when I am, it comes off/out wrong. So I try and make subtle suggestions. Sometimes she gets them, sometimes she doesn't. We have the discussions also about them, they just tend to be very emotional discussions and I don't know how successful they actually are.

So sit down and read one of the books with her. There's nothing in the books about the forum. Buy "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" and "His Needs, Her Needs" and then sit down and read them together. It's very simple.

See, here's the thing, Tom: you have learned that there is a 'plus' for you to hold this position. You've had it dismantled over and over, but you insist upon clutching to your chest. Do so, if it makes you feel better. But please let the posters on this site know the following:

MY NAME IS TOM OLYMPUS. I HATE MY LIFE. I'M GOING TO DUMP MY WIFE BECAUSE SHE'S A LOSER AND DOESN'T EVEN KNOW IT. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO DUMP HER UNTIL I'M DONE WITH HER BECAUSE I'M A SWEET, CARING GUY LIKE THAT. IN THE MEANTIME, I'M GOING TO DISRUPT YOUR THREADS AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IF I'M NOT HAPPY THEN NO ONE ELSE SHOULD BE EITHER.

If I were to do that, and buy that book, how would I approach it with her. She has shown in the past, to be somewhat against self-help type books.

Well, I'm extremely anti self-help books too, and yet I've found Dr. Harley's books very helpful.

You simply tell her, honey, we're having some issues in our marriage and I would like to read these books together. The author has had a lot of success in saving troubled marriages and helping couples build life-long, romantic relationships. That's the kind of relationship I would like to have with you because I care about you and love you and I want both of us to be as happy as we possibly can be.

Really, I'm actually trying to have a conversation with you, try to understand your thinking a little bit here, and thats what you come back with. I don't know what plus, or position you are talking about, but I thought it was a legitimate question I was asking you.
I don't hate my life or my wife, I don't appreciate you insinuating that my wife is a loser, where nowhere in here have I ever said that. I have infact said multiple times that she is a really good person. Yes it hurts me to see you even write that about her.
That was extremely uncalled for, and you obviously can't seem to control yourself well enough to have a simple conversation and answer a few questions respectfully tonight.

Think of it like a math problem in many parts. To answer #2, you need to have worked out #1 first, because having correctly solved #1 is the only way to work out #2--the answer to #1 is part of the solution to #2.

That's the way marriage is with an affair. You can work on DS and AS and be spinning your wheels the whole time because your spouse is not interested in you, they're interested in their affair partner. So what kind of sense does that make?

Do you recognize that none of your needs you're having trouble with are intimate needs?

The problem is Tom, that radical honesty is required for every part of this program. Its the bedrock of it. If you're not going to accept that being a liar is THE number one problem in your marriage then please just go and look for someone to agree with you elsewhere.

You call the difference between truth and lies semantics? You think lying, in church, or your wedding day is ok? You absolutely blow my mind. It was fine though according to you because you got something out of it? Lying is fine as long as it benefits you?

We really can't help you and actually there is no way I want to help you just find more ways to lie. It upsets me that there are people who think this is acceptable behaviour.

Sayin' ain't doin, brother.

If you love your wife as you say, get to work. Stop lying today. Every lie, wether directly or by omission, works to destroy your marriage. If you want a better marriage then you have to address this. It doesn't matter how hard it is, or if you "believe" otherwise. Take it slow. She probably knows you are dishonest but doesn't know what you lie about or why. She probably thinks she never gets the full picture or the full story.

If you love your wife as you say, find a way to open communication about your marriage. Leave the books around. Read when she's hanging out watching tv and just see if she asks what you're reading. Example: my wife likes to look at catalogs or read a little in bed before going to sleep. I started reading Love Busters at bed time and she asked what I was reading. Gave her a brief synopsis and told her I thought it was good. That was all we said about it. A couple of days later she asked "is it a Love Buster when I do xyz?"

Love Busters is a great place to start. Figure out what YOURS are first and work on them. Figure out what her needs are first and work on them. That's how you get her to come to the table. Things aren't working the way they are. Someone needs to start working for a change and it may as well be you. You can do it.

If you want to get paid you have to do the work. You have to remember though that you don't know when you'll get your paycheck. You have to do the work and be ok with that. It's hard at first. It gets easier. After a while you get good at it. You need to do it or let her go.

Tom,

I suppose being beat up isn't going to help your marriage and certainly isn't going to help your wife so I will try another approach.

You sort of remind me of my DH (actually he is now a BH as I had an affair but you remind me of him prior to that.)

The thing is, he was also not honest to spare my feelings. I also believe he was brought up being told what he SHOULD feel and feels sort of guilty for having concerns about "shallow" things such as physical appearance and domestic support. This dishonesty was pervasive in his life as he was often that way with other people to spare their feeling and avoid confrontation. His family is that way as well.

What I want to tell you about is how it affected ME. I could sense he was unhappy. I could see him look at other women and I could imagine the wheels turning in his head wishing I looked more like her. I could invision his disappointment when he would come home and the house wasn't to his liking. I was hypersensitive to comments he made about others. "My brother had to hurry home to his wife or she would make him pay." or, "look what his wife makes him do." I assumed it never occured to him that these people WANTED to hurry home or do their wife's bidding because HE didn't want to.

He always SAID the right thing. When I would ask, he wouldn't complain. Pretty soon, I got to the point that I was DJing all the time. Even innocuous comments would hurt me.

"I ironed that blouse you may want to wear tonight." became. "Please wear that sexy blouse and don't look like such a frump."

I was even insulted when he bought me clothes because I felt like he was trying to change me.

His eyes never lit up when I entered the room but rather looked at me reproachful as if I screwed it up again.

Now, I realize that much of this could have been resolved had I addressed it better but I'm not sure that even then he could have been truthful.

I actually admire your ability to come on her and say things that you know are going to get you blasted.

What I want you to know is that SHE KNOWS. She just doesn't know exactly how to change it and how to be what you want so she goes about her day hoping it is okay but knowing it is not. On good days she figures all relationships are like this and she should just suck it up. On bad days she thinks maybe something is really wrong with her and no one could ever love her.

The problem is, what if she finds someone who says he does (even if he is lying)? What if someone looks at her with that light in his eyes? What if someone tells her she is beautiful?

I thing I always felt disdain from my husband...both real and imagined.

I had an affair. He could leave but hasn't. Ironic that this is the first time I felt his love in a long time. The pain he feels that proves he loves/loved me may mean the end of our marriage and yet, it was what I needed all along.

Find some way to really tell her the truth.

This is a Marriage builders website...one benefit of it is showing people PROVEN steps to save their marriages after an affair....You cannot save a marriage until the affair is dealt with...he may not want to deal with it...but it is the best way for him to save his M....

Well if you really want to get technical about it...you could have written her a nice little addendum to your wedding vows and gave it to her before the actual church wedding....saying something like...

" I agree to the wedding vows I am going to make to you in front of God and our family and friends with the following conditions: only until something better comes along, only if you dont gain weight, only if you make enough money, only if you keep up with the housework to my standards, only if I dont change my mind, only until it starts to be too much work to maintain, Love your husband to be Tom."