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No, it is not when it comes to adultery.

I went back and studied the opening statement, and there were a few notable things there.

1. The mother of the teenager came to pdc, within a few weeks of the sexual encounters. This to me must mean the affair had started recently. Of course it could have been some tawdry thing like the mother got mad or jealous at pdcs wife and/or her own son and exposed them out of spite, but it is more likely she was upset by thier new blatent sexual exploits.
So that makes it just started

2. PDC had stated his WW was one of the most honest people he knew, and held high standards. I assume this was amoung all the people and community for some years, and even with the boys Mom. This would explain why she. the Mom, came to pdc upset, because of the shock of it.

Again sounds like it just started.


But PDC, you seem to miss the point my friend, she was not honest with you with the extent of sexual needs, and passion, and trapping she had felt in prior years. She might have had fantasys of men and pushed them aside for quite some time prior. Because she stubbornly held on to her morals and integrity, and somehow, somewhere, something clicked and she gave up on those things. Probably peri-menopause helped depress her to a point of breaking. Along with the feelings anyone would have when left alone with a set of standards that seemed to not be bringing any rewards anymore emotionally.

Because you yourself stated the poor state both of your communication was in for some time, you must realize that this is possible, and the main reason you are here, because you guys need help. Understanding the things that breed affairs, and how they develop over time, sometimes a long time, is part of the wisdom found in the posters here. I believe you that she had not had an active affair going with the boy before, but I don't believe she hadn't entertained the fantasy at times, for some time. Happens to many people, in the right/wrong circumstances, and that is what we all need to protect in our marriages, the enviroment in which it exists and breeds love and intimacy, or cold indifferance.

None of us got married thinking passion would not stay, in fact most of us were said or thought it would never ever leave, or we would not have got together in the first place. As you have allready said, issues had piled up between you, and now you are reaping the consequences like many do, when we push them to the side. They rear their ugly head and don't go away because thats how relationship works. You have to maintain them to a standard together, with devoted time and communication, constantly. No body can live without love, and in desparation so many reach out for anything, even someone like the kid you gracously did not put in the hospital.

So in your wife there must have been some form of dishonesty that had developed with maybe influence from outside sources, menopause, skechy friends, a marraige that had lost its intimacy, too much work and not enough play/pressure of being a Mom. Maybe even being the strong and reliable dedicated wife who many people leaned on with all thier problems who wondered why she bothered to behave that way when she was unhappy. How many times did others let her down? How many people did she counsel in thier problems that drew her strength? How did this happen to her? Where did her independance and whatever stubborness you both must have had between you for some time betray both of you? Strong minded people with good moral standards can break down if left alone with no support in bad circumatnces. With the world and tragic circumstances surrounding them and lies are the norm, with so many grabbing as much as they can and using others, people can become desparate and afraid. I think this happened over time with your wife, and your smart enough to have come here knowing why. It was in your opening statement.

So lets just say that it has been brewing for some time, the possibility of passion. intimacy, excitment within your wifes mind, probably she was holding out for her marriage to bring that, but gave up. In those times alone and needing the closeness you guys lost at some point. She was at least, you must admit, not honest with how she felt about what she was missing, and that is the breeding place of affairs, secrecy, and in her ability to keep a secret it backfired as she kept it from you how much lonliness she really felt, didn't beleive you cared. probably anyone did really, and was not honest about that either.

There is nobody who has an affair who is totally honest. Nobody wrecks thier life and goes that low without destroying themselves in the process. Nobody with a 23 year marriage who hurts it like that is even honest with themselves. Why would it be so far fetched to beleive that she belived she would/could not be dishonest with others? She believed the lie that an affair was the right thing to do. Do you think its possible she hid other things before? Thats what is at the crux of what other posters are asking.

I know we are all trying to get to the bottom of this, and many things are bound to be hidden whithin your wifes mind that had been entertained at some point before she had the thing with the kid. They were there, even if she didn't accually sleep with anyone before, but the desparation has been brewing for some time, thats the point. These things in a marriage of 23 years don't happen overnight or without reason. I hope we can all help to figure them out.


I hope the issue of whether she was seeing the dumb kid prior or not can be dropped too. Suffice it to say thier was an imagined lover in her mind somewhere before she had one. That understood we can go about helping you be that lover again, and recover your preciuos marriage.

My understanding is that after everything is disclosed, zero contact is established. Then you move on to work the 10 principles which both of us have been studying. One of which is The Policy Of Radical Honesty. Is this not true? I have made a committment to her for complete honesty and openness. I think hiding this thread would violate that.

There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

I went back and studied the opening statement, and there were a few notable things there.

1. The mother of the teenager came to pdc, within a few weeks of the sexual encounters. This to me must mean the affair had started recently. Of course it could have been some tawdry thing like the mother got mad or jealous at pdcs wife and/or her own son and exposed them out of spite, but it is more likely she was upset by thier new blatent sexual exploits.
So that makes it just started

2. PDC had stated his WW was one of the most honest people he knew, and held high standards. I assume this was amoung all the people and community for some years, and even with the boys Mom. This would explain why she. the Mom, came to pdc upset, because of the shock of it.

Again sounds like it just started.

[1. The mother of the teenager came to pdc, within a few weeks of the sexual encounters. This to me must mean the affair had started recently. Of course it could have been some tawdry thing like the mother got mad or jealous at pdcs wife and/or her own son and exposed them out of spite, but it is more likely she was upset by thier new blatent sexual exploits.
So that makes it just started

Yes and no. Yes, you should be radically honest..to a DEGREE. When it comes to protecting you, ie: snooping, etc, your tactics should always be kept secret. On this thread, for example, many posters - including me - questioned her honesty about the beginnings of her affair. If you feel like that will help your marriage for her to read it, that is up to you.

Here is what Harley says about radical honesty and POJA when there has been adultery:

He is talking about before the affair is discovered. There has been total disclosure and there is no need for anything but radical honesty.

I don't want a marriage based on snooping.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

<snip>

Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.

One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.

He is in jail for probably 6 months. My wife has agreed to 0 contact for life, although this distresses her. Between her going to the hospital and him going to jail, there was no closure

I don't want a marriage based on snooping.

I don't want a marriage based on snooping.

pdc, do you have the Marriage Builders materials yet? Which books do you have and where are you in the program?

How can we help you in your recovery?

This is the post that has me concerned for you that your wife is still foggy and if she is, she will NOT like this thread and some of the other advice given on this site.

Has she looked at the MB principles such as PORH, transparency, 15+hrs of UA time? Does she agree with them? Willing to implement? I would say that would be a good standard to sharing this site with a WS...not just confidence that NC is in place...