I sew kilts. Seriously.

I'm curious. My wife has FC and DS up there on her list. She can't stand laundry, so I pretty much tackle the laundry and the kitchen. What is your list of chores and how did you come to the 17 hours? That sounds like a lot of cleaning.

I'm not sure there are typical days. I leave for work around 6:30, Prisca and the kids get up around 7. I know her day starts with a lot of rough childcare duties. I know it's pretty tough, and I'd like us to escape from our troubles together each night, giving ourselves something to look forward to with each other.

Most of our day is spent talking to each other online.


We are broke.

I'd like to arrange to have our washer repaired or replaced in the near future. If we can keep our spending restrained for a couple weeks, and make a budget, I'll bet we can manage that.


Not sure that would help. We don't cloth diaper, presently.


Yes, and yes.


Prisca would like to have a romantic relationship that makes all of this feel worthwhile.

I think.


We put them to bed early most nights and could easily have 2-3 hours together. We also now have a gym membership that provides extremely affordable childcare while we work out together up to two hours at a time.


I think so.

Yes, I know. I think it's cool I wound up mentioning this in response to you, in particular.


Six young children are very, very messy.

The list was:
wash and dry laundry (at least 2-3 loads per night)
wash and put away dishes (handwash, no dish washer)
mop kitchen and bathroom once a week
take out trash

Doesn't sound like a lot, but there was only an hour a day on weekdays to get it done, and that disappeared when we started going to the gym.

Also, the list informally included:
purchasing meals for Prisca to feed the kids each day
purchasing dinner
preparing dinner
cleaning up the living room when the kids didn't get it cleaned (I don't think Prisca expected this of me, but I was doing it at times)
paying the bills
managing the finances
several other things I'm not remembering at the moment, the number of responsibilities I had just seemed to me to be growing without bound

Craigslist the washer. Sometimes appliances are like white elephants.
I bought a $2,699 slide in stove for $700 last week. Barely used.

My sis got an older but great washer for $50. It was sitting unused in a garage.

Markos, thank you for posting some more information. I find it interesting about the amount of time it took to get some substantive responses and still there is much sustenance to it. I wish I possessed the time and ability to post things in sweet flowing words but I don�t so I pretty much come across as a jerk, and today I�m OK with that�.lol� Anyway, I noticed a couple things and just wanted to bring them to the forefront for some thought.

Y�all got a buttload of kids. I, too, have 6 kids but fortunately they fall into 2 different age groups. I also have a newborn at home. So time is precious to me and to us. Dang near daily, or weekly, life happens and our plans change. How would Prisca say that you flow with change? I can also tell you that this becomes more prevalent with time so if you�re not a master of change then you best be learning�.lol�.

Next, and I really mean this with some love, but you seem to have two speeds. 1 is the MB Rockstar speed (spouting the lingo and doing the deal) and the other is Victim. I was looking through the post about why she wasn�t happy and saw absolutely no accountability just excuses. We didn�t do this because I was exhausted. We didn�t do this because she never followed through. We didn�t do this because of HER problem wanting to watch TV. We didn�t do this because of DJ�s and AO�s. That�s all victim language and once you�re in victim mode you are absolutely stuck. Doing the deal means finding ways and means to do these things despite the real circumstances that try to prevent you. Being proactive as well as reactive and 100% responsible for your side of the street.

Anywho, overall, looking at the BIG picture. Y�all have grown leaps and bounds from when you started her. Don�t discount that. It�s progress, measurable progress. And sure it�s easy to get discouraged because of some backsliding or AO�s or DJ�s but y�all are in it and doing the thing. Each one of those, rather than being a thorn in your side, can be a learning experience. By now, you should be able to prevent all of them on your side of the street and head off most of them from her side because you aren�t letting things escalate and circle like you use to.

Oh and PS, when the heck are you getting fixed son....? Six under six is INSANE and PRISCA has got to be a Saint for staying home and doing that day in and day out.....

I know this is contrary to the practice of UA time but it is something that keeps hitting me.

I am overwhelmed with all that I have to do...totally. When I have a moment to relax, it feels like even more of an imposition to have to DO something with my DH...seriously, even fun stuff feels like work.

Maybe it is the mothering thing. I love caring for my kids but sometimes it feels like a chore. I feel like spending time with my DH is a chore as well. Something I SHOULD do, something I'm SUPPOSED to do.

I've thought about what I would like to do instead...read a book uniterrupted, watch mindless TV...SLEEP!

Even affection is hard because I have very affectionate children and they will randomly ask for hugs and cuddles. This is great except when I am concentrating on something else, going to the bathroom or trying to relax. I can't snap at them or tell them I need a break so when my grown husband comes a long and wants affection guess who gets the brunt of my frustration.

I am not saying this is okay. I know I need to fix this.

I am just sharing this because when I think of being home with 6 kids (I have two) and then imagine being asked to go out a couple times of week, I just cringe.

Going out involves more than just childcare...it means

having all the needed supplies the kids may want or need, stuffed lovey's sippy cups, snacks, clothes etc.

It means transporting them to someone's home or having someone come to mine which involves at least some tidying up.

It means guilt feelings about missing them (I know this is irrational but I still have them)

It means making myself look human which involves potential uncomfortable clothes and makeup.

It means trying to be witty and fun and cute when I am exhausted.

I would imagine for Prica, just going to the bathroom requires thought and consideration about where children are and what they are doing.

I know "me time" is counterintuitive to Marriage Builders. I'm not sure how to not feel obligated when my DH is there but I do. It is the natural caretaker in me. The couple times he has tried to allow me to sleep in, I can't I hear him yell at the dog or the kids fight or something....

I'm sure she wants to want to spend time with you.

Sorry for my rambling....just thinking of all you two have to deal with and I am amazed.

Okay, I'm okay with that, too. But I'm still struggling to see my light at the end of the tunnel and see how this is going to work. I will push back looking for more answers, as much as you're willing to help me find.


She wants to change often, and I try to roll with it. I'm not sure how she would evaluate me on that, but I think I've become better at that this year. In particular I've learned that it's inappropriate for me to demand things of her even if she has previously agreed to them, and that I should always afford her the right to back out if there's something she previously agreed to but now realizes she doesn't want to do.

Dr. Harley took me to task a few months ago for telling Prisca one morning that I was bothered that we hadn't done something she'd agreed to do and that I was requesting she do. He told me that while it was true I was bothered, telling her so was simply an attempt to manipulate her through guilt, and that if she is reluctant about a request I should look for circumstances under which she'd be enthusiastic, or withdraw the request for the time being.


I can assure you that I've had to accept a lot of constant change for this lifestyle.


Yeah, it probably depends on how much caffeine I had each morning.

My devotion to this program represents me throwing myself into it to learn it, plumb its depths, absorb it, and use it to better our marriage, for Prisca and myself.

Now as for victim ...


I'm not sure what you mean by accountability. Is there something else I should be taking responsibility for?


Are you suggesting I look for a way to tolerate DJs and demands and angry outbursts in my marriage?

I've been spending months trying to look past each DJ and work with the complaint or the request behind it. That's given me a lot of resentment, but it doesn't seem to have accomplished the happiness I was trying to provide for Prisca, nor does it seem to have brought about the emotional needs I'm lacking. I can keep trying to work that way, but it doesn't seem successful.


I have tried to do these things despite the SDs and DJs and the lack of UA time for months now. How long does this approach typically take before it works?


What specifically do you see me needing to take responsibility for?


Yes, it's true, we have learned a lot and grown leaps and bounds.

But the main thing that makes the Marriage Builders program work is missing and is trending downward. I am disturbed about that and worried about what it means for us. And there are still enough things rocky and unstable that I think we really ought to focus on it. This program doesn't work if not used.


The point of my numbers above is that we are not doing it.


I think I've gone about as far as I can go towards changing how I feel about disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. I can't live my life in constant fear that if I say no to a request Prisca will be angry with me, nor in fear that if I say yes to a request and do not do it up to her standards or am unable to complete the task she will be angry with me. I can't be doing the things I am doing every day just because I am worried she will be angry with me if I do not do them. This is not a workable way of life for me any more.

Sunnydaze, it may be counter MB but it's definately pro-sanity....lol.... I know with 3 kids under 4, I try to give my wife some me time every week. And I also try to take the kid load off of her on the weekends.

Some other things we've done to make time:
1. All paper plates saves a ton of time off the dishes.
2. Use neighbor kids to babysit, even when we stay home so we can do stuff together while the kids play in the basement and the neighbor kids work for cheap.
3. Maid Service every other week to dust and do the floors. After doing a lot of looking we found an older retired lady that does it for like 60 bucks.

She's locked me out of the email account again.

I don't agree with online privacy.

We can brainstorm dozens and hundreds of ways to save time and money, but I think between Prisca and me we are pretty good at coming up with those.

We have the hours to spend together available. My problem is we are not using them.

Yep.


I wonder why, when you lovebust me on a regular basis, then lovebust me again when I tell you I'm upset about it.

��But I'm still struggling to see my light at the end of the tunnel and see how this is going to work.��

I feel you there and y�all chose a difficult path by trying to do this with 6 kids�WOW�.

���Are you suggesting I look for a way to tolerate DJs and demands and angry outbursts in my marriage?

I've been spending months trying to look past each DJ and work with the complaint or the request behind it! . That's given me a lot of resentment, but it doesn't seem to have accomplished the happiness I was trying to provide for Prisca, nor does it seem to have brought about the emotional needs I'm lacking. I can keep trying to work that way, but it doesn't seem successful.���

Absolutely not, I�m saying that you shouldn�t meet a DJ with a DJ or and AO with an AO. You also have to realize that YOU cannot provide Prisca with Happiness but rather provide the environment in which she can be happy. And in real life, SHE DEALS WITH 6 KIDS DAILY. Those days, while attainable, are likely not going to be consistent until the youngest is through the most stressful toddler years.

���I can't live my life in constant fear that if I say no to a request Prisca will be angry with me, nor in fear that if I say yes to a request and do not do it up to her standards or am unable to complete the task she will be angry with me. I can't be doing the things I am doing every day just because I am worried she will be angry with me if I do not do them. This is not a workable way of life for me any more.���

Interesting. Man I�m going to be honest, y�all made the choice to have 6 kids and that life is ROUGH and stressful. And while there is no reason for there to be DJ�s and AO�s there is also no reason to live in fear. What are you afraid of? And serious question, are you thick or thin skinned? How does PRISCA�s family communicate? I can tell you that in my marriage, I used to be thin skinned and was butt-hurt a lot. But, while I may not like it, I now know that it is stressful for my wife to be home with the kids and she doesn�t take time to form eloquent thoughts and often blurts out things that can be hurtful but only if I let them hurt me. Today, I know that this is her, we work on it but also I let a lot just fall at the floor giving no power to it because I do know that it�s not her intent to inflict pain upon me.

Another thing I�ve learned is that my wife has to be able to vent. When she is venting, I used to try to fix things and that would turn into trouble with us. I�m a fixer so I had to learn not to be a fixer but rather an effective listener.

Oh is that all. What is it, that is in your power to do, that will make so that you are using that time?

I'm gonna use an analogy here. They say that good sex starts in the morning and ends evening. Some say that good sex starts in the kitchen and ends in the bedroom. Same with UA time, it starts in the morning and ends when you are actually able to have it. Now if you are making withdrawals during the time leading up to the UA time, well then it's either going to suck or it aint't going to happen.

Apparently PRISCA, thinks you're doing just that. So there is an area that you can work on, what's your game plan?

And seriously, are y'all done having kids? Do you have your vacectomy scheduled?

Dear markos,

You say,


I've followed the recent updates in your thread and the only thing I can point my finger on is that your W doesn't want to be with you. With all the hours available she is emotionally unavailable. Why don't you concentrate on that particular thing? Have you talked about that problem?

Obviously, she is not letting you to meet her needs. She says you're lovebusting her. What exactly are you doing or not doing? See, negative resposne of one spouse triggers a negative response of the other, and you seem to be caught on the crazy cycle. It doesn't matter who started it, but it is on, fortunately the cycle can be ended. Who ends it? The one who feels more mature. You've probably read Love and Respect, see p 74.

I could make sacrifices and give into demands, and then she might be willing to spend more of it with me.

OK, this is the VICTIM role and this is where there is not responsibility or accountability. For the above statement to be true would indicate that you are doing everything 100% correct and she is failing. Furthermore, it invalidates her feeling, that she posted earlier, that you are lovebusting. So either she is a manipulative liar out to cause you great pain or you have a role in the decline of the UA time. If you have a role in creating the atmosphere that doesn't provide for quality safe UA time, that is where you need to put the plan together to fix that. If she's nothing but a manipulative liar then ditch her....

And seriously, are y'all done having kids? Do you have your vacectomy scheduled?

I agree with that and am very committed to that. I think I'm doing a good job of that, actually, though I'm not sure if Prisca would agree.


It was the same with one child.

And there are plenty of people who have attained marital happiness using Marriage Builders with one or more small children.

I think it would work if we followed the policy of undivided attention.


I'm afraid she'll be angry with me or quit spending time with me.

Which is exactly where I am now, anyway.


I'm pretty thick skinned in that I've been tolerating this for a long time.

But I've reached the point where I no longer think it's wise to tolerate it.


That doesn't seem to be a principle I can follow. If you've got a practical way I can become immune to this issue, I'm willing to listen. If it's just that I need to decide not to feel bad about demands, disrespect, and anger, then if that really works I think she should do it to. If that really works everybody should do it and then nobody will have to do the hard work of eliminating demands, disrespect, and anger.

No offense, but I'm not buying this.

I can choose to do everything she wants anyway despite the demands, disrespect, and anger, but that creates resentment which is not helping anything.


I know it's not her intent to inflict pain upon me, but that's not enough. It's not enough for her that it was never my intent to inflict pain on her. Dr. Harley doesn't think it should be enough for folks.

I've tried that approach the last several months. This is not a new idea to me. I'm done with it.


I'm not interested in listening to demands, disrespect, or anger. I don't believe it will be good for our marriage if I tolerate it.

Prisca emailed me privately to say not to discuss this here, so I won't.