Yes.


Nevertheless, I don't think you realize just how much care I have been providing and how emotionally and physically taxing it is on me.


I have no idea how you would even measure "50/50." I just know that we can't have a good marriage if we're not serious about spending 15 hours a week giving each other our undivided attention. And I also know that doing all of these things is a lot harder for both of us if we don't have a good marriage.

Yeah, kinda like that. You have some answers, now.

Please look at this exchange for a minute.

I am genuinely trying to see the picture of what is going on in your home at the moment. Since yesterday, I and others have been asking you to tell me what is taking place.

Many of your replies are not intended to enlighten us. They are witty comebacks and defences:

-So she's allowed to it and I'm not?

-But that's not what happened (with no explanation of what DID happen).

-That's her version.

-But I'm supposed to be her maid?

And so on. It's probably the argument you want to have with your wife, but for some reason you are having it with us. I will take ages to give effective help if you answer as you did above.

I asked what has been happening in the evenings, and suggested the separate room scenario, just to try and show that I know what these situations are like.

Rather than tell me what is happening, you say that YOU are not going into a separate room. You say are going into your normal room, and you leave my real question unanswered (i.e.; what is going on?).

So now I have to ask what your wife is doing when you go to that room. You might or might not answer that fully.

If I want to know WHY Prisca is not going into the sitting room where you normally spend UA time in the evenings, I will have to ask that specific question, and wait while you give me smart answers before really answering me.

If I want to know whether you have asked her to join you, and asked her why she won't do that, and talked about whatever LB she says you committed that day, I will have to ask each of those questions

Eventually, after working out WHICH 20 questions I need to ask to get a full picture, I might be able to see what is happening in your home, or I might go to bed because it's 3AM.

Stop fighting us, markos. You posted again here for help, clearly, so why not be cooperative?

Okay; your turn. Give me a smart comeback.

First, thank you for responding to my earlier post.

Anyway, this.

This is what some of us are responding to. There appears to be very little leeway in your perspective for the possibility that your family is in "crisis mode" right now (love whoever used that term above).

If I remember correctly, Dr H says that there are periods when ENs will not be able to be met in the same way because of circs beyond our control. I suggest that 8-12 weeks into welcoming your 6th child is one such period.

What really brings this home to me is your insistence that there are 2-3 hours of UA time available every evening. Tucked away in this nugget is the fact that Prisca apparently should require very little downtime to get there. In addition, you would really like for at least part of the UA time to be out of the house. I suspect she is simply too exhausted for that right now, and resents you for not getting that.

It sounds like you're feeling stuck. Like nothing is happening and nothing is getting "fixed". I hate that feeling.

It's possible that your intense focus on getting the 15 hours of UA time in is distracting you from controlling your LB's and giving your wife some much needed DS. Yes, the UA time is important. But in your household it's probably super difficult to attain. Maybe try focusing on the other stuff for a while.

I know my wife gets tired of hearing "UA time, UA time, UA time" and I have to just ease off. It's ok. I work on something else like keeping the kids happy and maintaining some order in the house. I take care of scheduling a babysitter for a couple hours later in the week or whatever. It helps me, anyway.

Ummm point of clarification hold.... I've got ya by a year, the dates don't lie so resent away.....lol....

Markos, at this point I don't know if anything productive will come of any of this. When my toddler throws I fit, I typically wait til the fit is over and then address it but this is one long fit.

I think the feelings of the group are WORK ON YOU but you seem hell bent on dogging out and deflect ALL the BLAME and ALL the work to PRISCA for what we now see by your posted words as your short comings. Not only that, but the assignments given to y'all weren't to be used to brow beat the other, PRISCA obviously put that and honest valid emotions in there for the purpose of improving y'alls life. The goal would then be for you to evaluate those and work on you. You get the common theme. YOU CONTROL YOU.

The things you've typed here today, well there just aren't words. If this is how you communicate with with PRISCA this way then this is gonna be a tough tough road. You're never wrong, you punish if you're perceived as wrong, and then have the gall to flat out tell her that her thoughts and feelings are WRONG. That ain't gonna fly with ANYONE.

Now is not the time to keep score or walk around all butt-hurt, now is the time for action. 1. Treat every thought and feeling by PRISCA as honest and valid. 2. STOP all love busters, PERIOD. 3. Give that woman a break from the kids EVERYDAY. 4. After this, then lets look at the UA time but it ain't happening before.....

WHY ARE YOU RESPONDING LIKE THIS? What are you gaining from these exchanges? Is posting here just a way to fill time with witty banter, or are you genuinely seeking help?

Markos, if you're interested,

I don't agree with the posts that say you should ignore your wife's LBs, or those that say that 12 hours UA is enough, or that accuse you of being obsessive about calculating hours.

You are Prisca are trying to follow Dr H's programme, and that specifies a REGULAR 15 hours which he has asked you to calculate as part of your MB course, and the identification and elimination of LBS, AOs etc. He also recommends complaining. His programme encourages you to identify what causes LBs when done by your spouse and tell her these things, and listen to what causes LBs for her, and eliminate them in your behaviour. He encourages safe negotiation, not putting up and shutting up. I appreciate that, as a couple, you are not succeeding in some of these things, and you are (I think!) seeking help with following the programme.

When you tell Prisca that she has LB'd you, she reacts badly, and this won't do. You need to speak with consideration, and she needs to listen. She is not allowed to respond with sarcasm etc and you are not allowed to neglect your children!

But, this thread is turning into a war of words WITH US. There is no point to that.

Have you had any advice from your coach since you posted here yesterday?

Sorry, SugarCane, I'm not trying to be this way.

In the evenings, one of us takes care of putting the kids to bed, and while doing that we converse by instant messenger. The kids' sleep environment has changed recently and the younger ones are being retrained to stay in bed.

They have all been moved into our bedroom for the nights.

I agreed to this but realized almost immediately it was a mistake. There's another train of thought to follow there but I'll leave it for another post.

So after the kids are down for the night we join each other in the living room. If things are going well we spend some time together, but if not Prisca will often go take a shower by herself. If things are not going well Prisca may also simply sit down and look at me, waiting for me to figure out what I need to do to initiate an enjoyable time together.

Sometimes we have a planned schedule in place with something scheduled for an evening. But many times when this is the case, she'll still sit down and just look at me silently, waiting for me to take the lead. I'll often ask "Do you want to {do whatever we have planned}" and will get no answer, or passive quiet participation.

The nights Prisca is the most enthusiastic are the nights we have television time scheduled. Even then many times she will sit there silently allowing me to put an arm around her or show affection to her, without showing affection to me in the ways I need and have asked for. Sometimes she'll sit apart from me.

About once a week for a night or two Prisca will initiate sex. I try to be as fulfilling for her as possible, when I'm clear about what she wants.

There are good nights and bad nights. There are an awful lot of nights where I feel a major burden just to persuade her to join in. Many, many times we schedule activities which she doesn't want to do when the time comes.

We brought this issue to Steve back in July. He told us that if we'd agreed on something to do then we needed to do it, enthusiastically. One of us shouldn't have to feel like he or she is dragging the other through it.

UA time is supposed to be downtime.

I am not saying she should just be happy with everything and accept it as her downtime whether she likes it or not.

I am saying that together we have to tackle the issue of how to set up enjoyable downtime for us to spend together.


Other way around; I'd be happy with it being at home.

She sounds tired to me.

I do this to my H sometimes, too. I sit and look at him and wait for him to initiate. I would LOVE him to take the reins more often. I do not want him to ask me "do you want to do X", I want action and then I will join in. To some of us, that lead is romantic.

Finally, SOME good information�. Welcome Back�.

���UA time is supposed to be downtime.���

I disagree. I personally, need 10-15 minutes alone to winddown. I typically come home, give hugs and kisses, and then retreat for 10 minutes. Then I come out and take the kids from momma, start supper, and do the dishes while she has some kid-free time. We need that and it sounds like PRISCA needs something like that. So what is in your power to do?

���In the evenings, one of us takes care of putting the kids to bed���

Is this ideal? Are you happy with that? I know in our house, I don�t like that so we split up kids to put to bed.

���So after the kids are down for the night we join each other in the living room. If things are going well we spend some time together, but if not Prisca will often go take a shower by herself. If things are not going well Prisca may also simply sit down and look at me, waiting for me to figure out what I need to do to initiate an enjoyable time together.���

After a day of dealing with 6 kids, I�d sit in silence and let my brain unwind or take a shower by myself too�..lol�. On the positive, you seem to believe that she is waiting for you to �initiate an enjoyable time together� GREAT then do it. Or run her a bath and lite her some candles and let her start out in the bathroom with some alone time. When she gets done have some y�all time.

No, but I have an appointment with our coach this afternoon.

Somebody give me some reason to hope that it will not always be like this. I can work on me forever, but if there's not a romantic Marriage Builders marriage down the road as an achievable goal, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Eventually I can be superdad with no feelings or needs, taking care of all of the household chores, never asking for anything.

I have tried the approach of working on me with no expectations. What I haven't figured out is why marriage should have no expectations.

I have been providing DS. I would say I've been controlling LBs.

I don't beat Prisca over the head about UA time. I come to her every couple of weeks and ask for what I'm looking for: affection, time together, more recreational activities, a schedule.


No, this is of first importance in the Marriage Builders program.

I'm not seeing anyone give me a plausible explanation as to why six children prevents us from having UA time. I've heard people with two children offer the same excuses. The hours are there and available.


It isn't okay, and I'm not interested in hearing anyone advise me that it is. This program doesn't work without the policy of undivided attention.

I'm not trying to be witty or sarcastic or win an argument, but again I need to reply that this goes both ways.

Me taking the reins may feel romantic to her, but to me it feels like she doesn't want to do the things we have scheduled. It's also a huge opportunity for me to screw up and handle the reins wrong and blow the evening. Put all those feelings together and how am I supposed to enjoy it?

This may be romantic to her, but if so, it's something she's gaining at my expense, and it's unsustainable.

Then I'm not sure you can help me. This is Dr. Harley's position. If one of you is troubled by life with the kids and wants to escape, then you escape together.


At the moment they are all in the same room. When we get them back in their rooms, we will probably split the job again.


I let her have her alone time. It's not working. As I said in my description, she goes and takes a shower alone whenever she wants in the evenings. Often if I'm putting the kids to bed, she does that.

Am I just not giving her enough alone time?

Fair enough Markos.... For the next 8 weeks, why don't you take care of the kids from the minute you get home until they all go to bed. That will give PRISCA a break and allow her time to unwind, refresh, and recharge. And afterwards you have your UA Time.... Is that a workable solution?

Phew. I hope that didn't kill you. Thank you for answering fully!

Okay. This crap needs to stop. This sounds like my marriage leading up to my H's affair. We were engaged in a stupid, pointless fight about very little, on a permanent basis and I regret every wasted minute of it.

1. What kinds of things happen earlier in the day to make things not go well? With us, it was my difficult son. He had behavioural problems and would wind my H up within minutes of his arrival home. H would shout, I would hate H, end of story, night after night.

If your issues are to do with chores not getting done, you have to work it out so that they get done.

2. What do you say when she sits and looks at you? Do you say, warmly, "I thought we'd never get the kids down! How are you, sweetheart? Have you had a rough day? Shall we have a glass of wine/watch that DVD/?

Do you say "what's your problem"?

3. When you ask and get no answer, do you try, kindly, to find out what is the problem?

If that doesn't work, could you try watching TV for a bit - i.e. leaving her not to talk for 15 minutes, then cheerfully make a suggestion?

3. What does Dr H suggest about the affection issue? I'm not good with this one. I always love affection, much more than I love TV.

4. You talked about this with Steve in July, before the latest baby came.

I can't imagine the effect that being either pregnant or breastfeeding every year for the past six years has had on Prisca's hormones.

You asked in an earlier smart comment how long you should accept things not being done in your marriage. I don't know the answer to that, but Dr Harley will know how to deal with the post-baby situation.

I remember how long it took me, with two children seven years apart, to get into a routine where I got the washing, shopping and cooking done while my H was at work, and enough basic tidying and cleaning during the day to keep us from catching infections. The goal was to have a meal nearly ready when he came home, and to have the baby bathed. H's job was to play for a while with the kids and tuck them in to bed. I would clean the kitchen while he did that, so any washing up left was only his plate and a few things. (We also have never had a dishwasher.)

It took a few months of rigid planning during the day to get relatively peaceful evenings when he came home, and that was with only one baby at a time.

It must be impossible for Prisca to get the washing, cooking and basic cleaning done during the day, while looking after - what? 3 kids under 3, who can't be left for a minute, and one of them being breast or bottle fed, which means sitting down and not doing chores?

Are the older 3 at school? How long does it take Prisca to get them all dressed to take the older ones and pick them up?

It's a nightmare scenario. You both need amazing skills to cope with all the work needed and still feel like talking to each other.

What is your patience like when you come home to a house full of kids and mess?

Well, I don't think you liked my answer. Which is that you are a family in crisis. I believe Dr. Harley says a crisis situation requires a different approach.....

How old is the newborn?

It won't always be like this. I can give you this hope because I am 45 years old and have seen families with many children, close together, go through extrembly tough times when the kids are small and come out the other side together.

But when you start saying things like, 'I'm not sure its worth it...' I have to wonder at your commitment level. I can only imagine how Prisca is feeling as she reads this thread. (which I don't think she should be doing btw.)

You asked when you can expect some return on your investment. What if we told you "in a year"? Or "two years from now"? How soon do you require that your needs get met fully and regularly? Today? Tomorrow? Next week? What are you willing to do in the interim to reduce Prisca's burdens? And please do not say "what is she going to do to reduce mine"?

Are you going to divorce so you can go off and get your needs met elsewhere? Are you going to abandon 6 children under age 7? Do you really think you can satisfy your obligations to them for the next several years while you are living somewhere else? Are you serious?

This can be something you look back on as one of the most rewarding times in your life. When you put in honest effort and achieve something notable - happy and productive children. Cherish the time with them. It passes too quickly and then you will yearn for them to want to spend time with you. Trust me, any neglect you display now will be returned in spades by them in the future. Play that Harry Chapin song "Cats in the Cradle" a few times if you need inspiration.

Imagine how many love units you will put into Prisca's bank if you are the rock she can count on to get through these stressful times. She is going to think the world of you if you can help her make this work. Or she is going to hate your guts for pouting the whole time that your needs were not met. Your choice.