SWS, I saw on your BW's page that you TEXTED the OW regarding NC. And that there has been more contact today.

This was the posted to you on the first page of your thread by Melody Lane, one of our veterans here.

I am just wondering if you can explain why you chose to ignore this advice and to instead TEXT the OW and why you are continuing to ignore the advice that you need to change your phone number pronto?

Obviously you are free to do whatever you like, but you came here asking for advice and feedback...so I am really curious to hear why you are doing it your own way instead of Dr Harley's way.

ps ~ Since it is obvious that you didn't text the SAA form NC letter, I would appreicate if you could tell us what you did text to the OW.

On the NC letter...why it was texted...There is no practical way to do the "registered mail"...we are dealing with multiple countries, no permanent addresses, etc...given the circumstance, and wanting to ensure it was received, and with the approval of my wife...the NC that was sent was -

I am trying to repair my relationship with my wife. I love her very much, and your sms and calls jeopordize my attempt to show my wife that I love her and that this horrible mistake is over. I only care for my wife and do not want to do anything to risk her happines. This is the only communication you will receive from me forever. Please do not contact me anymore.

@GloveOil - thanks. Just the type of experience that is good to hear. I'll consider pouring out the circumstances of the affair later...I want to be sure I've worked out all of the BS from my mind before committing it to paper in a public way. I definitely have been going through that on a daily basis...which in turn has led me to the changes that I feel I need to make internally...not just behavioral changes, but also perfecting of internal thoughts, mental weaknesses, etc...one difficult part now is as you described - I definitely don't have any excuse, nor do I have any thought in my mind that what I did was "OK" in any aspect...but whenever she asks about what I was thinking, why did it continue, etc...it is very hard to explain without it sounding like I am justifying it...but we've spoken about this concept, and she seems to be able to handle hearing those contributing factors much better now.

Thanks again for the comments - especially the critical ones - as well as the encouragement to follow a process.

After NC text was sent, did OW contact you via text?
Are you not able to block incoming texts on your phone?
I'm fairly certain all carriers provide this option. Please call your cell carrier today to determine how to do this.

Also, earlier in this thread I asked if there's any piece of information about the A that you're holding back from your W. Is there?

Bravo on your NC message. Personally, I don't have a problem with it being a text,...but blocking her until you get a new # might be a smart idea. Better yet, block her using a response message that says to her ANY and all message from her are unwelcome.

Interesting, what you said about not wanting to tell her the why's, feeling like you might appear to be justifying. My H has had issue with this, also. Best to try and look past the guilt a bit and think of it more as obtaining understanding of what was motivating you to do this or that,..and where the weak spots were, so you can know what spots in the fence need repair.

You appear to be on the right track with it. Remember,...small steps done faithfully, over time, can and will lead to great achievement.

Like climbing a mountain. Don't get stuck or give up,...even if the clouds hide how much further you have to go to get to the top.

I must be on a symbolic phrase kick, today....

Cheers.

With all due respect, the "peck" also had to do with not changing the number and also why he didn't ask for feedback if he was veering from the advice to send a letter.

I personally would never have advised sending a text (I guess this is for lurkers more than for SWS at this point). I don't know if it is the casual or addictive nature of texting or what but it doesn't ever seem to work.

Not that the letter itself would have necessarily gotten this brazen OW to back down but I was hoping that by the time she wrote the letter, the number would have been changed. But the significance of the letter to my perspective, as a FBW, was the gesture to his BW, who I believe would have appreciated it.

It's too late now. SO moving on...can you tell us the status of changing your number? I was under the impression from your W that you have already blocked OW and it didn't help.

It's his work cell, and he can't change it for a couple weeks until his contract with the company is over. There is no registered mail where the OW lives. Keep up.

Can you tell me where he says this?

He said no "practical way". Besides he could have sent it unregistered, it still would have been better than a text, IMO.

Greetings. Thanks for the feedback. I haven't been ignoring - before i get to GloveOil's big question...some answers to the smaller ones.

@Trust Will Come - thanks for your writing on what helped and what hurt. Extremely helpful to see that actions have an impact...positive and negative. Any advice on finding a pro-MB counselor? Our counselor is okay, he is also of our faith and is able to help us in terms that we understand, but we both feel like he is not helping with solutions, and just sits there and listens to us talk. We talk, even though I'm away, for probably 5 hours a day, so we have to come up with something to talk about before the counseling session.

1. Any detail about the A I haven't disclosed? Not that I can think of. There was no external discovery of the affair, and I was the one who came to my wife and told her. She started wanting to see evidence. So, I had my engineering department (I'm the CEO of the phone company) pull my phone records for the past year, and I gave them to her. I've also told my wife where and when I would meet the OW. I also have been open about the feelings I was feeling before, during and after the affair.
2. What do I plan to do to correct my character deficiencies? What precautions will I put in place? Am I willing to never flirt again? - Here mostly it is about constant vigilance. I know how I am to act and think, but over time I allowed my casual, open nature to increasingly put me in situations with women. I don't think anyone would classify me as a predator. I was quite oblivious to how my behavior was being interpreted...now that I am painfully aware of those things, I want to avoid it like the plague. Maybe I am being too extreme now, but I don't even like going to a checkout counter where the cashier is a woman. Am I willing to never flirt? Certainly. Am I going to do something at some point that will be interpreted as that...probably, but I am trying to take extreme precautions to build a wall around my behavior so that it cant ever be interpreted as such. I was at a meeting last week, and a woman that I know professionally ( I see her maybe once every two months) was sitting next to me and my male colleague on the transportation back from the meeting. She asked me what was wrong. I asked her what she meant - she responded by saying that I wasn't speaking to people with the interest and smile that I usually do. That actually made me glad...because I had made a real effort during that meeting to be as non-"myself" as possible. Which was difficult because in that particular setting most of my professional value is dependent on my personal perception by government leaders and the public. So aside from the internal work that I have to do, resigning my position, I think, is a key step to keep myself out of situations that contribute to my overall problem. There is a laundry list of other things that I have written down, and I'll try and post those some other time.
3. @Daisy and SusieQ - regarding the separation from the OW. I understand that part of siding with my wife...like, its not just being on her side, but coming up with ways to get on her side, especially with the rejection of the OW. I think I've done so, but will continue to come up with ways to try and continue showing it. I get more and more grateful every day for tips like that which lead me and my wife to a better understanding...to move forward before that separation is clear would be less effective. I didn't really see that clearly before.
4. Number change - Yes, I know it can be changed. I run the phone company. Therein lies much of the problem. First, in the environment I am in, my number rapidly becomes public knowledge, so building this fence is more symbolic in nature than a real deterrent to being contacted. Sure, I can change my number, but I will have to keep the other one on for an extended period, with calls being forwarded to the new number. I've got a nidea - I will get a new number to circulate internally, keep the old number, but have my wife be the one who answers it? I don't know - that seems to not really accomplish the goal of not bringing up Dday anytime there is contact. Any thoughts?

@Daisy, I like the symbolic phrase kick :-)

@GloveOil - thanks so much for sharing your experience. After I share my story - it will be good to hear about what internal changes you feel like you have made...I will do my long description of what happened soon, but I've got an hour and a half before my wife's friends come and take away stuff that I'm not shipping back home, so I have some organizing to do...and as I slept on a tile floor last night so that I wouldn't have to sleep in the bed where I had been with the OW I'm not moving as fast as I usually do.

Thanks again for all the support...please keep the arrows and pecks coming...I think those are the highlights of my wife's day :-) and they keep me working on new things.

SWS, I don't know if there is a list of counselors that use MB materials. Unless you're in Northern Virginia, I can't help you with that. The one TWC & I used urges people to buy the Harleys' books, so I don't feel bad about referring folks from this site to her. But if you're going to do phone counseling anyway, why not approach the Harleys themselves? (There are links on this site: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html.) I don't know exactly what it costs, but (1) several phone appointments will still cost WAY less than a pair of divorce lawyers' retainers, and (2) you know the old saying "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap goods", right? Not all counselors are created equal, and many haven't a clue on what it takes to actually revive a marriage. If you're not getting proactive suggestions for practical steps, that align with MB concepts, then your current counselor may not be right for the two of you.

It seems that maybe this would be a starting point for POJA with your BS. What does she think? What precautions does she want in place concerning this?

@GloveOil - I'll send a PM, I am in Northern Virginia. thanks.

@ClarkKent- Thanks. I'll take that approach. I hadn't run it by her yet, although when I was home for a few weeks in November, if it was a number I didn't recognize, I either didn't answer, or let her answer it.

I 'interviewed' our counselor before I made the appointment. I asked:

1. Do you believe I have the right to know every detail of the affair? He said yes.
2. Do you believe that WS's A has anything to do with the way he was brought up as a child? He said no, the affair had happened, and if we wanted to heal it we needed to know what we were neglecting in our M that allowed the A to happen.

This was before I discovered MB, so I was intuitively seeking out a pro-MB counselor.

Yes, that's right, this will trigger your W and that's a big no-no if you are serious about recovery.

Once you give the new number to business associates, the old number HAS to go.

It doesn't matter if OW can investigate and dig around to get your new number. In that case, I guess you will have to change the number again or get a restraining order or file stalking charges. It will be an inconvenience for sure...but that's what you get for having an affair.

Dr Harley even recommends a move out of the state if that's what it takes to accomplish NC...that's how important it is...

Re counseling. Finding a MB-pro counselor, IMHO, is second best to using the Harleys directly.

We used a MB "compatible" MC and we also used the Harleys ~ and there really isn't any comparison.

the Story

there may be too many Gory details here, and I don't know if it violates any forum rules, but after writing it, I realize I need to post it for my own sake...no more secrets.

GloveOil - here is the story. This version, just trying to stick to the facts...happy to answer any additional questions that come...also, my timelines, especially at the beginning might be a bit off...

Back in late October or early November 2009, I was on a flight. I was returning home (Country X) from meetings at headquarters (Country Y). My wife and children had recently left for the States for a few months to be at home for the holidays. the flight left at 1AM, arriving around 8 AM. I slept virtually the entire flight until the end of the flight as the stewardess woke me up for landing. She asked if I needed anything to eat or drink, and I said no. After we landed, and were waiting for the doors to open, the stewardess stood next to me and asked me what I was traveling for. I told her I lived and worked in X. She was surprised, siad that she was also from X, but is based out of Y, where my headquarters is. She asked where I worked, I told her, and she said that is a good company. I gave her a card and told her that if she were ever interested in a job in customer care, I would be happy to put her in touch with our HR department. We often have great success with former stewardesses in customer care management....

Fast forward maybe two weeks. I get a phone call from a number i didn't recognize...it was this girl. She reminded me who she was, and said she was back in X. She asked if I wanted to meet for lunch...she didn't mention anything about looking for a job. At the time, I was in a grocery store, I remember thinking ..."Wow, a girl, calling me?"...it was quite an ego boost, but I said no thanks ...we talked for a few minutes, she talked about not having anyone to hang out with when she was in town blah blah blah...I eventually told her I had to go, and then went home.

She added me as a friend on FB, but no chatting or messages, until the next time I went to Y...maybe late November? Mid december... She asked what I was doing...i told her that I needed to go to a shopping center after my meetings and she said that she'd like to meet me for coffee. We met for maybe 20 minutes, said bye, then I went to dinner with a colleague. During late november/december, we had spoken over skype a few times while she was doing flights in other countries. We talked about general stuff...her work, the gossip from country X, my family - nothing bad there, all good stuff. she had seen pictures of my kids online, etc...

In January, again saw her in country Y, and we went to dinner together. I knew it was wrong, but I enjoyed talking with her, and convinced myself there wasn't much harm in it. Again, nothing too deep in the conversation...mostly about her work, her future, her past.

Then in February - she was in country X again, and she called and asked what I was doing in the evening...I told her nothing, she invited herself over. By this time, I had taken down the warning bells that I had let ring back in November...she came over, we talked and ended up watching a movie together, and then she kissed me...we didn't have sex, but we made out for a while. I remember feeling like I couldn't move, like I was drunk. I knew it was wrong what was happening, but I couldn't stop. she wanted to have sex, and I told her no. we stopped, and she left...after telling her no, I tried to be really nice so she wouldn't be upset ( I know I shouldn't have cared about her feelings, but I did)...the next day she called again, and I let her come back over with the intention of lecturing her on being friends and not letting what happened the previous night happen again.

We were on the couch, and she ended up kissing me again. and I didn't stop. we ended up in the bedroom making out. I can't say I felt "good" but I was incoherent...arms were heavy, head was heavy...she wanted to have sex, and I told her no, that I couldn't do that to my wife, and that I had already done too much...that if we had sex, any good feelings that were between us would disappear and that we would end up hating each other...she reached down and maneuvered things such that I was inside of her...I remember yelling I cant' I can't I can't...but I couldn't get up, I remember watching an interview wit ha soldier who had lost a lot of blood and died for a few minutes...the feeling he described was what I had felt...blood leaving the extremities...incoherent speech...heaviness in my chest....and my life flashed, I saw my children's faces, I saw my wife smiling over her shoulder at me....and a voice in my head saying "You are Dead" " You are not you" "you have lost everything"

I was devastated, but my body couldn't stop...I liked the physical part...I liked that someone wanted to have sex with me so badly that even when I said No, she would do it anyway...it, but I felt guilty for liking it.

After that first time, I was so confused. I had never been with anyone aside from my wife. I told this girl that. She held me head and told me that it would be okay, and how wonderful it was being with me. I remember thinking - if you have sex with someone, it means you love them right? I used the words I love you to this girl that night...

the next morning she left. I tried to put the episode out of my mind...but I would go back to the feeling of being dominated, and someone thinking I was attractive, and someone wanting to have sex with me. All of the times that my wife turned away from me at night, or told me that I had a "window" in which to have sex, all the times that I felt guilty for "bothering" her for sex would come into my mind. also, I didn't want this girl to feel "bad" about it. I didn't want her to go think I was a predator who did things just for fun. I wanted her to not be angry with me for having sex with her just for the fun of it.

Over the next few months, We would talk frequently. mostly about her work and family. In March, again we met up in Country Y, and we had sex again. My body enjoyed it, and I felt so guilty for that...my mind liked it because it was not something I had to ask for. She wasn't having sex with me out of pity, or against her will, she wanted me, I was desired... I remember thinking that I couldn't do it, and I felt guilty...but whenever I would think that this voice in my head would hit me with such depression..."you have lost everything" "Your wife will never take you back" "You are trash" "you deserve to be miserable about this". I remember that during the meet-ups for sex, I wouldn't feel guilty...it was only after or when I would allow myself to think about it that any guilt would come.

It continued like that, talking on the phone, and meeting up whenever I was in Y, or she was in X. My wife had left X in around end of July, so I was alone again...and the OW came twice to my house where we would have sex...

In late september and early october I began telling the OW that things would end eventually, she said that she wanted to stay together until I left the country ( I planned on leaving my job during 2011)...I remember telling her that I didn't want to end it by default, I was going to have to choose to end it, and when I did I would be telling my wife, and that regardless of what the result was, I couldn't be with her forever.

In October, I went home for three weeks...my wife was a transformed person. She was happy, not depressed, inviting people over, enjoying life, saying nice things to me...it was wonderful. and I didn't speak to the OW during that time...maybe once for a few seconds. I felt like such trash. seeing my wife's happiness and knowing that I had crapped all over it.

In November, there were some extended religious/national holidays in Country X and Y. I had spoken with my wife about the possibility of coming home during that time, but since I was going to come home for Christmas anyway, I had about decided against it...plus I had planned to go for a business conference during that time, but I would have been in Country X for part of the holiday. The OW said that she wanted to come and spend the week together before my conference...when she said that, I immediately bought a ticket to the US for the duration of the holiday and i cancelled my conference.

I had to fly through Country Y on the way home. I met the OW. We had sex again, and it was like all the other times....but when I woke up the next morning with the guilt...instead of the voice saying that I couldn't change, and that I was trapped, I remember thinking..."I CAN stop! I'm not going to do this anymore. I've felt like a zombie, succumbing to passions for so long, but if I do this ever again after feeling this clarity of how wrong it is, and KNOWING that I can quit...then i am damned."

On the way home, I was thinking about what I needed to do next. I had already resolved to not do it anymore, and I was hit with a clarity of the sin, a clarity of the hurt I was doing to my wife. I contemplated just telling my local religious leader. I knew that if I told my wife it would devastate her due to her past with her father. So I thought I would go that route for now, because i knew that if I didn't at least confess to Church after having felt this deep remorse for the sin, that I was brining even worse condemnation to myself, and I would have little chance of recovering.

So, I got home, and things were so wonderful. It was like my wife had transformed...she wanted to be with me, she was nice, she was a bit more willing to have sex...and this made me feel even worse...

I as preparing to tell my Church leader at Church on Sunday...but as I was out with my wife shopping one day, she grabbed me around the waist and said how glad she was that Iwas home, how she wanted to dance with me, and how our marriage was important to her...i was crying my eyes out inside, knowing that I had tainted her happiness...when we got home, we sat on the couch, and I knew I had to tell her..so I told her.

After that, we worked together that week to have a NC conversation with the OW, I resigned from my job so that I could come be home and focus on the family, and I completed all the Church confession, and things...then we both decided for me to travel alone back to country X to close up the house, and close out my job, adn be back in time for Christmas...

so that's the story.



A few thoughts about why.

why did it happen initially? First, pride had really crept into my life. I was the best. I was great. I was perfect. I exercise. I was handsome. I made lots of money. I have dinner with Presidents. I was respected for the work I did. I personally paid for people's medical bills who couldn't afford them. I didn't drink, smoke, womanize. And all that pride let me think that I was different when it came to my boundaries with women. Of course I can have an attractive woman over to my home all alone at night...nothing will happen, I can control this. I can come to the edge of these feelings of attraction, and back off. SEcondly, whatever doubts and unhappiness I had in my marriage - I didn't talk to my wife about. rather than turning inwards, I turned outwards. I stopped leaning on her for my emotional needs, and I started getting them other places...work, the gym, this other woman, etc...

why did it continue. also a few things on a few different layers. One, I enjoyed it. I liked feeling desired. I hadn't felt desired in so long by my wife. feeling that again was so nice. I remember thinking during one of our encounters "You mean every woman doesn't hate having sex? I thought that's just how things were. You mean I AM desirable? Wow, I hadn't considered that before. You want to have sex with ME?" So that feeling of being desired was very attractive to me.

Also, and I may get some flack for this, so it would be good to hear if any WS has ever felt this....whenever I would have the thought to stop, and return completely to my wife...I would get so depressed...instantly depressed...not about returning...but about the possibility....I wanted to so badly. In those moments I didn't want to keep being this person I was being. I didn't want to continue stabbing my wife in the heart...but whenever I would get that thought in my head... This darkness would collapse on me. Like changing was impossible. I felt like a slave to these lustful feelings I was having. I felt a slave to the addiction of feeling desired. I felt like now that I had betrayed all of these wonderful qualities in my marriage, the only thing I deserved in life was this base, lustful version of happiness. I still get those feelings sometimes...especially when my wife reminds me of how mean and terrible I was to her...but now, after having support, and not having secrets, and after having had that "wake-up" moment where I knew I wanted to stop, and I knew that I was strong enough to stop...with all of those things, I have learned to take those thoughts and push them back, and use the pain that I am feeling to motivate me to change and to repair.

well, that's all I can do for this morning. Thanks GloveOil for prompting me to do that. It might not do anyone else any good but it was good for me to write it all down. Thanks so much for advising me to do that. And I apologize if it is too much detail...

I want to do anything to make things better. Even if it takes years. I want to do the right things every day - independent of whether or not my wife stays with me. I sure hope she does, but I understand if she can't...but regardless of what she decides, I've decided to be the man that I thought I was, the man that I know I need to be.