Tough love is the best medicine for an alcoholic. It would be a kindness to expose her and to call the police on her the next time she goes drunk driving. Many alcoholic's lives have been saved this way.

See, everytime you let her manipulate you with this kind of spin "invasion of privacy" it only enables her. It is harmful to her when you help her be bad. And you know she is being bad. She needs someone to help her be GOOD. And stand up for what is right. She really does.

She needs someone who loves her enough to give her an ultimatum to stop drinking and acting like a skankho or get out. That would shock her out of her lifestyle of self will run riot.

She is a terrorist and a terrorist only understands force.

I am a recovering alcoholic and I stopped drinking 26 years ago because my husband cared enough to give me a choice: get out or stop drinking. <---the most loving words he ever spoke to me. I knew he meant it too. I often wonder where i would be today if he had not cared enough to do that.

A good long distance friend also yelled at me this weekend. He said "Bro, my concern for you is that you somehow still think this is savable. She stayed out until 6 am and you rewarded her with affection when she asked for it the next day." This is a true statement. I don�t know how to do �tough love�. I can see how I am reinforcing her behavior by giving her affection (not sex, just hugs or fist bumps) when she asks for it but I don't know how to stop.

She was talking about her father's enlarged liver so I tried to bring up alcoholism this weekend. I asked her to explain it to me because she is a nurse and I don't really drink so I don't know how to define it. She said her father is a functioning alcoholic because he dries up, then goes on a run, then dries up again. She said my father is an alcoholic because he drinks 1-2 manhattans� every single night of the week without fail between dinner and bed time. She said she believes she has the potential to become an alcoholic but she doesn�t think that she is because many times she goes out and only has 1-2 drinks and we have a house full of liquor that she never touches. She said she thinks about it sometimes to take the edge off a stressful day but that she doesn't think about it every day. She said that I treat her like she has a problem and that I treat her differently when she has a drink when we are out. I looked into alanon meetings for myself.

She said that she is trying hard to recreate a friendship with me because she does not think that she can be anything else right now. She has been hurt too many times in the past from me not making her a top priority and she does not know if she can do that again. She said that she is giving me everything she can right now, but that she can�t give me everything.

Fist bumps? Who are you married to, Queen Latifah?


Don't let her sweep THIS under the rug. As the daughter of a confirmed addict, she literally has a 50/50 chance of having inherited the gene for addiction. No gene, no addiction. If the gene IS there, then if she is drinking to "take the edge off", it's only a matter of time before she flips that switch, which can't be unswitched. You are RIGHT to be concerned - and if she is already an addict, that changes EVERYTHING in regards to your recovery. As Dr. Harley says, addiction must be treated first before a marriage has any HOPE of being saved.

Best Wishes,
Arpeggi

This made me laugh... I had to look up fist bump and I got it wrong! It's more of the Howie Mandel Handshake or a pound I guess. Something you usually see guys do during a game. I took it as a simple form of affection, like you might do with a friend.

I just read a post about WS where the poster talked about the WS giving you whatever they think you need to keep you from interfering with the A. I am trying to keep that in my mind, when she hugs me or shows me some other form of affection. I am trying to read through "Surviving an Affair" but it is difficult because everything seems so applicable to what is happening right now.

I agree with this completely. This has always been a sore subject for her. When she is in a giving mood she entertains the thought of getting help for herself, that usually fades before a day or two and she never does anything about it. I am hoping that by me finding an Al-Anon support group I can gain the strength I need to put into effect what ML has suggested.

I just read a post entitled Be Still and it was exactly what I needed.

I realize that I need more information before I can act, and reading that post helped me to take a deep breath. I know a little about HN/HN and LB from our joint counseling sessions and reading the site, but I need to become an expert if I am going to make this work.

Went to joint counselor last night (he counsels with MB principles) and I shared my WW behavior. This was a first step, I usually cover everything up and let her rant while I try to take the blame. I know that his words won�t change WW behavior, but it was nice to hear him say that �You made an exclusive commitment to each other, and until you figure this out you need to stop those other relationships�. WW was not happy with the session but agreed to come again next week.

In my 1:1 session with my own counselor today I was told that I have to stop reacting to her behavior and start acting for myself. I know that I try to say or do what I think she wants to hear or see and am loosing myself in the process. My history of making excuses and justifying her behavior has to stop or her behavior will not stop.

Although I am starting to feel like a self help addict, I am enjoying the joint counseling, individual counseling, and looking forward to attending an Al-Anon meeting next week. I cannot make her go to individual counseling or an AA meeting, but I can continue to take care of me.

Also, I apologize for the name changes. My first screen name would have been very recognizable to her, and the second was a quick change to hide it. This one is based off the word Paladin, which to me has always represented an ideal that I strive to live up to, combined with my love of being a dad to my 3 great kids. Sorry for any confusion in name changes, this new screen name is who I am now and who I hope to have the strength to be as I walk down this road. As always thank you for the advice and support.

Hi Paladad,

I sympathize with you because you are dealing with two problems at this time - your W's EA's and reckless behavior and her problem drinking.

I urge you to heed Melody's advice at this time because it is sound.

I also urge you at this time to become as familiar as you can with alcoholism. I am not stating that she is at this point, but I believe she is most certainly a problem drinker. Drinking to excess and passing out, perhaps blacking out on even ocasions, demonstrates that she IS a problematic drinker. Alcoholism is a progressive disease. No one is 'zapped' with it in a short period of time. Most people who have been evaluated as alcoholic had a prior history of problem drinking to the point of passing out, engaging in reckless and embarassing behavior, and much of this occured while younger - h.s., and college. Heredity also increases the risk of alcoholism, just as is true for heart disease, diabetes, etc. Alanon is an excellent choice for you both for support and for knowledge about problem drinking and alcoholism. I would also urge you to surf the Internet. There are several sites that could provide you with general and detailed info on this.

The point is Palada, and Melody also conveyed this to you, that you will not be successful in addressing any affair or loose behavior on her part UNTIL you first address her drinking. No way, no how. Brief instances of her attempting to get close to you will occur, but they will not last. I feel I know this. I am a recovering alcoholic, and have been in recovery for the most part since 1992. There are many, many tricks, guises, and strateies that problem drinkers and full alcoholics employ to manipulate those close to them inorder to continue drinking and to justify it, and to minimize the consequences of it. In short Paladad, you are dealing with a powerful enemies - her drinking prob. and the EA's.

Another thing to be very wary of is that the majority of counselors, either individual or marital, simply are not equipped to address a drinking addiction. They are simply not trained in that area. Therefore Paladad, I am afraid that, unless the counslor can document training in alcohol addiction, you will be wasting your time and money at this time focusing solely on the marital issues. The fact that he may not know about her drinking and subsequent behavior sort of gives me the indication that she is hiding it and is manipulating you into concealing it as well.

I wish you well Paladad, but I hope this gives you some food for thought. At least gain some detailed knowledge about problem drinking and measure your W's behavior against what you find. And, please listen to Melody.

Tom

Tom, thank you for your response. I have been doing some internet research about the differences between a problem drinker and an alcoholic. I can see where calling my WW a �problem drinker� is easier to swallow then saying she is an �alcoholic�. I can also see how much potential she has to turn the page to a full-fledged alcoholic.

Melody, as I see your responses to not only my own postings but also to others on the board I have grown to respect your no-nonsense advice! You champion the moral course of action and I respect that. The advice you give is not always easy to digest, but I can see how needed it is to someone in my shoes.

I also realize that although WW and I are seeing a marital counselor very familiar with MB (I counted 15 copies of SAA on his bookshelf during our last session) we are not in marital recovery. We go and we talk mostly about the POJA, being open and honest, avoiding LB, and a little about what brought us to his office. As long as she continues to talk to the OM(s) what we are doing in his office is far from any type of recovery. Because I followed a sort of Plan A this spring and my wife eventually ended contact with that OM I have faith in this system. Because I didn�t know about putting in measures of protection like changing e-mail, canceling facebooks, etc. I was always fearful of my wife returning to that type of behavior. She was trying in our marriage again and I was becoming more and more depressed and shutting myself away from her, which of course had the effect of her stop trying at home and looking for what she wanted somewhere else again. This is a viscous cycle we have repeated over the last 4 years.

I have read SAA up to �Marital Recovery Guided by The Rule of Protection�. My question is does it make sense to go any further at this point?

Christmas morning WW and I watched the children open presents. She began texting on her phone soon after it was done, when I asked who she was talking to she said her female friend. When her phone was on the charger I saw that OM had sent a text saying "yeah, but it's ok because Christmas is really about the kids". I said "Dear, just so you know OM text you back" then I left the room. She eventually followed me and tried to explain it away. My only response was "This is Christmas and I would like it to be about OUR family." She said "This has been about our family, that is what we are doing today." I didn't push it any further for fear of LBing.

Because her phone is locked I rarely get to see the content of messages back and forth. I did see another one from her female friend at the end of the night that said "Don't worry it will get better." Her female friend is going through a pretty bad divorce right now so I am guessing that was coaching from the D side of the fence.

She will not commit to plans for New Years so I am guessing she is planning on saying that she wants to move to mediation or divorce at our next couples counseling (tomorrow). I am planning my response as something like "I don't believe in divorce, I believe in marriage. I agreed to mediation originally because I thought that was our only option but reading about HN/HN, LB, etc I realize that we do have options. I also do not believe in adultery, but there is little I can do about the way other people believe." That sounds a little too LB though. Is there a better way to say that. Also it seems like plan B may be my only option in the near future. How do you put that into play with 3 very dependent children?

Merry Christmas!

Marriage counseling is a waste with an active affair.

You are right in pointing out that that would be LB. Just remove the BUT and stuff after it and it is fine. You can state what YOU believe in without being judgmental. Saying, "I don't do divorce, i talk MARRIAGE," and "I believe in a marriage that does NOT contain adultery," are perfectly fine things to say.

When you get into Plan B where are the kids going to be? Will they be living with her? Will you be the one moving? Will she? Have you talked to an attorney? Will you need to pay CS? Can you get 50/50 custody? Will you need to find sitters? Who will be your IM? Where will drop offs be?

These are just some of the things that you need to prepare in advance for your plan B.

Thank you for the checklist Scotland. When we first went to this counselor it was to discuss divorce mediation. I had given up trying to fix our marriage when every 6 months she was ready to call it quits. I was reading a book called "Being a Good Dad During and After Divorce", much of the advice was to be civil, to play nice, to be an "extended" family for the sake of the children. I agreed to mediation on those grounds. When we went to mediation he asked to try 10 sessions of marital therapy first and talked about the concepts discussed on this site. After she agreed to this I threw myself into learning the concepts DH suggests.

A deep, dark Plan B is very much the opposite of how I was planning to handle this. We were talking about 50/50 custody, and she hates where we live right now so I think she would move. She has never admitted to having an A, but her pattern of text messing to OM would suggest otherwise. I know OM1 (EA/PA) has kids of his own, I believe that OM2 is single with no kids. She has sad that she has nowhere else to go, she probably would have left already if she did. I have not talked to a lawyer because we were going to mediate. It sounds like I still have some prep work to do before Plan B can make sense.

Can someone offer help with exposure, please.

I believe I made it clear but WW has for the past 4 years at one point or another been very vocal about how unhappy she is because I do not pay enough attention to her. My fear in exposing to her family is that they will have the reaction of "Well, she has been unhappy for a long time..." Not that they will condone the actions of WW but rather not offer the pressure needed to end it.

Also, the letter to work... there are 3 OM all involved from work... one is a co-worker that is on active duty in Iraq that WW had a sexmessage fest with on FB, he is the only one that is married, and I don't know if I want to expose this because it is the least of my worries and who knows what shape this guy is going to come back to the states with. OM2 is also a co-worker that is contracted by the hospital and I believe WW has been physical with. OM3 is an EMT that WW met through work that is the most ongoing A (text messaging all day long). WW insists that OM3 is JAF, but I dont text my opposite sex JAF as soon as I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep every night. How do I write all that in a letter to work?

As far as WW friends go, every friend that she has is divorcing or divorced and have all had A through the workplace during the A, so no luck there.

Last question...we go to MB counselor tonight, do I bother to expose anything there or does that just give her time to think up defences when the Tsunami of Truth arrives?

WW blew up yesterday because I asked her what she wanted to do for New Years. She said "I don't know if I feel like celebrating New Years with you, so stop asking! Christmas is over and you were supposed to have moved out by now. I have agreed to work on our marriage, but I don't know if I can do that anymore."

I am wondering if she is losing face with OM because I am still living at the house? Wishful thinking on my part maybe. WW is getting angrier by the day, there is little to no conversation unless it involves the children or the children are around, she has forgotten how to say thank you or respond to simple yes/no questions, and all but refuses to make eye contact with me.

I have still not exposed because the stuff I do have concrete evidence are not on the major OM but rather minor OMs (adultery is adultery, and I don�t agree with sextmessaging or begging another man to meet you out). My thought is that major OM that I don�t have anything concrete is major source of typical WW behavior. WW texts him first thing in the morning, all day long, and before bed every night. She even finds time to sneak away from holiday parties to find time to text him. My fear with exposing what little I have is that it will just drive her deeper underground...that is all it has done before.

I have had no contact with any of the OM� I am wondering if I expose them to each other? I still don�t know how to expose to the workplace when all 3 OM (who knows if there are more) are from the workplace.

And of course you know better than to move out, right?

Yes, moving out is not an option for me. This spring when I got my ILYBINILWY I moved away for a week. It tore me apart to not be with my children on a daily basis.

I would rather coexist with my Alien WW then make it easier for her to continue her behavior.

Until you expose you are enabling your wife to have this affair. Exposure is your only hope of getting your ww out of this fog until then your marriage is over.

You need to understand that emotional affair is worse then having a physical affair because the ws is emotionaly attached to the OP emotional affairs breaks up more marriages then a physical affair.

So how long are you going to enable this affair? Are you gunna man up and fight for this marriage telling everyone u and your wife know about what she is doing?

Put a voice activated recorder (VAR) and a GPS tracking device in her car and you'll have all the evidence you need in a few days.

Quoted for truth. You have the cajones that some BHs lack (because you actually stayed in your house); now use them to end this affair.

I attended my first Al-Anon meeting yesterday. It was funny because the person that I was partnered with told his story... he said he was married to a woman that he never would have called an alcoholic until his son called him at work one day and told him that mommy was drinking and hitting us. I felt lots of connections between his story and mine.

After the meeting I called WW mom to test the waters for exposure. I said "I am tired of getting treated like a piece of $#!% in my own house. I love your daughter very much and want to save our marriage but I don't know what to do anymore...this is worse then it was in the spring and you know how bad that was."

WW mom said, "I will tell you just like I told her, I can not tell you what to do this time, I have my own problems and I can't get involved in yours anymore. I will support whatever decision you make but I won't tell you what to do."

I said, "I am not asking you now but there may come a day when I do ask you to give your daughter some advice."

WW mom said, "I won't do it. And all I can tell you is that maybe you don't realize what you have until it's gone." She suggested I move out to give WW some thinking time like WW and I talked about 2 months ago.

I said "I will not move out, if WW wants this then she will have to move out but I am staying at my family's home."

Exposure at this point seems even more futile because there are at least 2 OM in the wings that WW has spent time chasing if I manage to drive OM1 off. All 3 OM are from WW work, WW friends all have had A and divorces, mutual friends and my family that know enough about what is going on all say get out of that relationship!

I don't know how to keep wanting to save this...my giver wants to give up. I am starting to look forward to a deep, dark Plan B almost like a relief from the daily turmoil.

Hmm... From those comments, I'll bet dollars to donuts that your WW has already told MIL her "side" of the story - one of the disadvantages of waiting too long to expose.

ITA with MiM.