Teaching a recovering WS not to abandon their wife and children is MB advice, as well as sound legal advice. Go reread Dr. Harley's stance on separation. He advises it only in cases of abuse or as part of plan B.

Thanks for the feedback on moving out. That is going to be a difficult road to navigate. In my reading of the MB site (my books haven't arrived yet) It seems to me that moving out could still fit within the MB framework...

"The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.

As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.

The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur."

I sent her a mail and told her that I would consider moving out only if we had a written agreement about what the rules of engagement were, and at what point I would come back.

I think in this case it could be possible that staying will cause more damage. At the same time, everyone in a position to help us, I mean everyone I think would advise us not to separate...I got us into this by not listening to others, and disregarding the things I knew to be right. I feel like continuing that practice of going at it in our own way will have a similar result...not giving her the recovery that she needs, and not repairing the relationship.

I will see how things are after actually arriving. I just love her so much, and at this point I'm more concerned about her healing and being able to cope with the betrayal and pain more than saving my marriage.

I can't believe I was capable of doing this to her.

Thanks GloveOil. What you described in your experience was exactly what happened with us the first 10 days or so....except I told her in person. We prayed together each night...slept in the same bed...but as time has gone on, and she has a chance to replay everything I've done in her mind, I think it has become increasingly more difficult for her to stomach. Even while I was gone the past three weeks, we would pray three times together, once at my bedtime, once at her bedtime, and once with the children at their bedtime...but the last 3 days I can tell she is not into it so much, and she ahs cut communication way back. She did say it was mostly because she has so much hate and she doesn't want to actually say those things to me, so she would rather avoid me right now.

So, I like your marathon not sprint mentality, and I will take the next steps as they come.

jmwc, what do you think adultery IS? Dr. Harley and most others have always called adultery, abuse.

My wife threw me out and I was told to pick up all my stuff the next day or the Goodwill was picking it up in 3 days! I was in NO position to make demands, and neither is S_WS....

Dr. Harley's rule of protection;

"Avoid being the cause of your spouses unhappiness."

You will protect your wife's feelings when you follow this rule.

S_WS, you've violated your wife in the worst possible way. You've effectively ended the marriage that once existed. Your wife will have to agree upon a new marriage, one in which she will be honored and protected, cherished and loved.

BUT, It's her choice right now, whether to continue! NOT your's!

You effectively voted with adultery! It's now her choice to decide the next steps....

Anything less than completely surrendering to what she wants right now is no more than a demonstration of your continued selfishness and complete lack of compassion for your victim.

I've been where you are and although it feels tough.... It ain't Chit compared to what your wife feels.

I'm really disappointed that anyone would tell you not to honor your wife's requests right now. You've demonstrated that you cannot be trusted, nor have you even begun to go through withdraws yet. No one should be suggesting anything other than support for your wife's choices..... especially with the holidays a week away! Ya know how many false recoveries happen during this time of year?? Alot of 'em!

Please believe me when I say this, I'll be your biggest cheerleader as long as your doing whatever it takes to repair what you've done.... And if that includes a brief period of seperation, then that's what it takes. I will be praying for both of you, seriously...

I bumped a thread called "Extraordinary Precautions" that I started some time ago....

Here's the link just in case;

link

This should give you some things that can keep your mind focused on the positive for quite a while..... The positive things YOU can do!

Well put GloveOil... As always

Physical abuse.

He's not making demands. He's POJA the conditions of being home. Besides, it is his house. His BS is in no position to DEMAND he move out. They need to POJA. Figure something out.

thanks HPB and GO. I will keep trying to do what is right. After this evening's discussion with my wife, though, it is hard to not lose hope...I will keep doing the things, and see if there are some more that I can do on the EP list you gave me. Thanks for the ideas. and thanks for the support of her on her thread. I'm still staying off until she agrees to it.

Jim, POJA only applies AFTER the Betrayed Spouse determines what the requirements for remaining in the marriage will be. If the Wayward agrees to these terms/conditions then the marriage has a chance. POJA can ONLY begin when the Betrayed Spouse feels safe again.

To make my point please think about Dr. H's No Contact Policy.
If a BS had to POJA this with a wayward I doubt NC would be achieved in most cases.

Or Just Compensation;
Again, if a BS had to POJA this with a wayward, I doubt many waywards would ever deliver JC.

What wayward is ENTHUSIASTIC about Just Compensation??? That IS the requirement for POJA. But it doesn't apply here!

Nor do we POJA honesty...

How many waywards are ENTHUSIASTIC about having to sit down and answer ALL the BS's questions about the affair.... This is part of the conditions that the BS deserves and requires that DO NOT require POJA.

I've had this discussion tooooo many times on these forums. Recovery only begins once the BS is satisfied that the Wayward spouse has met the requirements they need in order to feel safe enough to re-engage in the marriage.

As far as the comment about abuse being only physical???? Feel free to contact Dr. Harley yourself on this one, as I have several times in the past. He considers adultery to be both mental and physical abuse. Please take the time to ask him yourself, before you attempt to call someone out on this again.

Again, you don't have it right. I suggest re-reading all of Dr. Harley's Q&A columns and articles. I know abuse can be more than physical. Dr. Harley only recommends separation in the case of physical abuse or as part of plan B. And SWS is not abusing his BW right now either, so that point is moot.

And I would argue that seriously_ws is not really currently wayward although he still has some wayward thinking. He ended it with his affair partner and then told his wife after the fact. Sure, there is contact, but that is because his OW is crazy and keeps trying to track him down. He is reporting every instance of attempted contact and not responding. That's a heck of a lot better than how you handled your situation. And you of all people should understand the danger of separating during this time. Afterall, your BS I believe started having an affair of her own. Now, of course you should have left because you were still actively having your affair. SWS is not. He's not currently abusing his BW like you did. I'm sorry that I can't quote Dr. Harley off the top of my head like MelodyLane, but he would definitely recommended still living together and trying to POJA from now on. And they should POJA "just compensation" as well. If she wanted SWS to kill OW would he have to because that is what she asked for? Of course not. SWS should know that he needs to compensate seriously for what he put her through and come to mutually agreeable conditions. That is the best chance for their marriage.

It seems, though, that there are certain things that cannot be POJA'd according to the line of analysis jmwc95 and some other posters are saying here, namely:

whether WS should remain in the home
whether WS should continue to sleep in the marital bed
whether WS and BS should spend 15 hrs UA
whether BS is entitled to ask for time to herself

That seems like alot to ask of a BS who isn't even sure she wants to remain in the marriage.

SWS is also being advised to play hardball (certainly with respect to moving out) in order to protect his future position vis-a-vis a divorce/custody suit (I believe he was warned that he was at risk of becoming a "weekend Dad"). Those considerations, though, have precisely nothing to do with his marriage. They are all about him.

If kids weren't involved, I would say you might have a point. However, he should not abandon his children. I'm not advising SWS to play hardball. I'm telling him to POJA a solution where he stays in the marital home. I certainly don't have a problem if his BS doesn't want him in the marital bed. It's not that much to ask a BS to allow her WS to live in a home that he co-owns. I had to live with a WS in the marital home that was contantly calling and texting her affair partner. I had to live in the marital home with a WS who went on a vacation with her OM and then just came back like nothing was wrong and she owned the place (she did). Don't act like I don't know what it's like. I'm not siding with the WS on this. I'm siding on the side of the marriage. Now if the BS decides she wants to move on and divorce, that's fine, she has that right, but in the meantime, Dr. Harley would agree that it is best to live in the marital home together and that there is a better chance of reconciliation if he does not move out. He just needs to be very sensitive towards his BS at this time.

I think this would be a wonderful question to hear Dr. Harley address on the radio in the next couple of days.

kerala,
You are absolutely right!

A wayward that continues to desires the BS to be no more than a doormat is NOT facilitating recovery. It's setting a BS up to be taken for another long, hard, painful ride!

He already did address this, just a week or so ago!

Check out wulfpackgirl's thread in recovery.... There is a link to his program about how this wayward wife needs to basically PlanA for as long as it takes to bring her reluctant BS back in to the marriage. To put her taker away!

The WS is in no position to make demands. That would be a HUGE mistake. When you have just assaulted your spouse you are in no position to make demands. He needs to back off and let her run this show. Don't add insult to injury by making demands. The WS is not entitled to resume his marriage after what he did; that is up to the BS entirely if the marriage goes on.

She may decide she doesn't want to continue the marriage and that is her prerogative. But pushing her into a wall will not help that situation.

I think this would be a great approach for SWS.

What do you think of Plan A, SWS?

What about the suggestion of calling the coaching center? What do you think?

Jim, due to the fact that you have no children, I can understand why you think your point has merit..... But, his wife needs to protect the children from the abuse they could suffer from a potential false recovery..... You don't let the wolf stay amoung the sheep.


You might not see that you did, but you did.


Dr. Harley knows men can usually handle this type of treatment and survive. I've even seen him recommend staying in PlanA for 2 years with an active wayward wife..... But he NEVER recommends more than 6 week for a woman to stay in PlanA.... So your comparison holds no weight in this situation.


You're failing to recognise that this (as well as any other) wayward, effectively ENDED the marriage once the infidelity occured.