Actually, Dazed, I do agree. I think Hum's H has been not been a defininte no as much as to a definete yes. If I am wrong about it, yes do not have a child without a dual decision...and not to glue you together...and not until your problems are solved.<P>However, Hum seemed to have jumped to the conclusion that H didn't love her because he wasn't jumping up and down to have a child, and I don't believe that is an appropriate conclusion.<P>I thought it was wise to explore what his reservations actually were and why. When we attatch our own meanings and act like they are fact, that's when we get ourselves into trouble.<P>But no, do not have a child unless you have absolute support and a healed relationship. We were the lucky ones as bonding so positively as a family. I just know how being ambivalent was not necessarily anti-kid.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Dazed,<P>I guess I should respond. If you read carefully both FHL and I have made it clear that children do not solve marital problems. The issue was that Hummingbird expected her H to be wildly enthusiastic about children. His response was a measured if you really want children then OK. It was not a NO.<P>As FHL said, she interpreted that as not being in love with her and not ever wanting children. I can testify and can find literally hundreds of my male counterparts that wild enthusiasm in not usually the case.<P>Interestingly, HumB's OM was professing that her H must not love her if he was not wildly enthusiastic as the OM certainly was. Of course he had only 1 child and was cheating on the mother and working long hours, and how knows what else.<P>This tread is about getting HumB to get a more realistic view of her H and her expectations of her H.<P>No, one is saying have a child to save the marriage. Although some of HumB's earlier posts suggest that her wanting children so bad may be a subcon. hope that children would make the marriage better. She has never really said that.<P>Finally, I can also say with some certitude that men do bond with babies after they are born. They are not part of the gestation process.<P>Hopefully, we have cleared that misconception up. No one is recommending having children to save marriage on this thread as far as I can tell. What is being recommended is that HumB take a realistic look and her H and his attitudes. The OM has apparently planeted some very destructive seeds in her mind.<P>As always, it is interesting to see how other people perceive what is written and said. Good to get it cleared up. I believe, we are all in agreement that children do not save marriages.<P>Good Luck and God Bless

FHL,<P>You know the OM told me many times how beautiful I'd look pregnant! How he'd support me and our child would be so beautiful and it would be the greatest thing on earth. A child conceived from our love, how honored he would be for me to be the mother of his child, and that child would represent our love and blah, blah. <P>So my husband doesn't say things like this and he never will. My mind is all screwed up and I'm trying to unravel things.<P>Dazed, I am scared to death of having a child in my marriage today and I would never get pregnant now. Yes, I really want a child, I feel I am ready to be a mother and I've felt this way for awhile now. It really hurts at times, I have this longing inside, I go the stores and see baby clothes, all my friends have kids, it's just hard and makes me sad. But I know I can't, and I realize the tremendouse strain on my marriage already and with a child it could break for good.<P>My husband knows I want children. In heated arguments, I've told him if he didn't I would leave. He doesn't want to lose me and says he loves me very much but doesn't have that "feeling" that his life is missing a child, not to say that once the child is here he wouldn't love it and support me but that today he is really "neutral". He even said "I don't know maybe when I'm 50 and it's too late to have children, I'll regret it and say God I should have, but if you told me today that you didn't want any, I would be OK with it". <P>I feel like it's all my shoulders. I guess I want him to say "yes, definitely", not have me make the decision. You know when we make love recently, he'll say things to me "like are you sure we need to use protection, so let's have baby", of course I say No, we can't now.<P>He is excellent with children. I see him with kids and he's great. <P>You know when FHL said:<P>"I thought it was wise to explore what his reservations actually were and why. When we attatch our own meanings and act like they are fact, that's when we get ourselves into trouble."<P>I do this and I know the OM has tainted alot.<P>It really helps to get a man's opinion. I was thinking of that alot last night. <P>Just learning wrote this:<P>"Clearly, since you enjoy Romance Novels, you have to my mind a very unrealistic view of men."<P>Yes, I know bigtime.<P>Some things struck a chord with me. When Just Learning said:<P>"Now look at your H. From what you said he had a horrible childhood. I believe FHL pointed out that subcon. this worries him in the "like father like son vain". He probably worries more about finances than you think (if for no other reason less toys). However, you can remind him if you have children, he gets to go into real toy stores and buy toys and not feel self-conscience."<P>And:<P>"It seems to me given what he has said, that having children is not really an issue. You are simply using it to justify your relationship with OM. He has said he is willing. Men do not view children the same way that women do. So quit expecting him to. Men fall in love with children after they are born and they can see, smell, and touch them."<P>AND:<P>"Your H may have doubts about children, but he may think that as a woman, it may be more your decision and he doesn't want to pressure. That may be his way of showing love and you are misinterpreting it to be proof he doesn't love you."<P>I have the OM's words in my brain and have this mindset that all men should feel this way. My husband should want to conceive a child with me because it would be a creation of our love.<P>Just Learning: It really does help getting another man's viewpoint.<P>Dazed, I know my husband is immature and I definitely don't want a glue baby. I don't want that at all. I want my marriage to be stable and I want to be happy and hopefully be in-love with husband in order for me to get pregnant. <P>FHL said:<P>"I just know how being ambivalent was not necessarily anti-kid."<P>May this is true for my husband. I have to really sort things out in my mind.<P>It would not be fair to my child. I want my child to see her mother happy.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 29, 1999).]

I think I didn't express myself clearly. My point was partially that one shouldn't have children to glue together a marriage, but it was also that NOT ALL MEN automatically bond with a baby after it's born.<P>Hum says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He is excellent with children. I see him with kids and he's great. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He also seems to be that he could go either way. This is different from my H, who has always been quite vocal about NOT wanting children.<P>I think that Hum's marriage has a lot of potential, at this point. It sounds as if H is trying, in his own bizarre little way, to make her happy, but he's clueless about how to do so. He's willing to conceive a child if it'll make her happy, but I do concur that this is not the time.<P>Hum, as far as OM saying all those things about how beautiful you'd be pregnant, etc. Boy, this guy knows just the right things to say to push those "romance novel" buttons, doesn't he?<P>This doesn't mean that he LIVES those words (obviously he doesn't; cheating on his wife and spending time away from his child to sweet-talk you.<P>Hum, it sounds like much of your response to this guy is because he SAYS the romance-novel things that you think a guy SHOULD say to prove his love. <P>The idea that a child is a "proof of our love" is a lovely one indeed; but most people I know haven't had that mindset about it. Usually, it's "I want a family", "I want a family life", "It's time", "I want a baby", "My folks are nagging us", or else it's just what you DO. I know NO ONE who is an adult and married who drinks champagne out of flutes in a heart-shaped tub and says, "Let's make love now and conceive a baby to prove our love." Well, maybe women think like this, but men don't. <P>Unmarried sixteen year olds desperate for love think like this.<P>FHL has helped me to look at what my H means, and what he DOES, not just what he says. Words are cheap. Anyone can deliver a good line.<P>Hum, it seems that you game plan ought to be as follows:<P>1) Dump the counselor and get one that will help you, or at least respoect your desire to rebuild your marriage. If need be, use the phone counseling here.<P>2) Do the exercises people here have suggested on how to get over the OM. Start job-hunting, if necessary.<P>3) Focus on H. Try to look at his behavior from a different POV...you might see him differently. Understand that his capacity to love is different from yours. We learn how to love from the homes we grew up in...if we don't learn it there, we don't know how.<P>4) Then, after things are better, then you can talk about a baby.<P>Your H is not going to be that romance novel hero you dream of. And neither is OM. I guarantee you, if you were married to OM, that stuff would STOP. It would stop because that is "woo-talk." Once he's won you, why should he continue?<P>But if your H is a good, solid, dependable guy, well, that ain't exactly chopped liver.<P>PS -- he doesn't cheat on you, does he. I see that as a major plus. <BR>

Thanks Dazed,<P>Your right words are CHEAP and mean nothing. There just beautiful words that I fall vulnerable. They only mean something when there's actions behind them. <P>LOVE IS ACTIONS, right.<P>Dazed, you don't have to answer cause I know it's personal but you didn't have kids because you never wanted them or you knew how your husband felt so that's why?

Hummingbird,<P>Just a quick response to your comments. Do you recall when I said that men are both better and worse than the picture portrayed in the Romance Novels. Your statement of the OM's comment about how beautiful you would be pregnant with his child triggered my memory.<P>I have met and known many people in my life. Your comments trigger memories of two I met and never liked. They thought it was an interesting game, to chase married women. One thought it was really (how should I say this) challenging/fun/?? to see if he could get these women pregnant and then leave the H to deal with it. You get the idea of men being worse than you think? I don't know that your OM is in this guys class but he sure was not above pushing all of your buttons. As mentioned earlier, for someone who loved children, he only had one. And obviously seeing his wife pregnant did not spark paternal instincts.<P>The more you talk about OM the more this guy really sounds sleazy. Please reread what you have said and what others have said in just this thread.<P>Had to respond before getting back to work.<P>Have a good weekend. Do something fun and don't give up hope. I sense these things are going to work out. You are growing.<P>God Bless You and Your H

Thanks Just Learning,<P>You know you really made me think about his wife being pregnant and how it affected him.<P>He told me that he was considering leaving and actually talked to his parents about how unhappy he was while she was pregnant and that if things didn't change he could never put up with it forever. <P>He also worked long hours and even though I had just met him then (his wife was about 6 months pregnant) I can remember him not being too enthusiastic about it when people asked him.<P>He did comment that he felt it he wanted a "family" but should of waited if he knew I was coming into his life. He had said to me "if I only found you 6 months sooner". He was married for 2 years before she got pregnant, I think if things were so bad why did he decide to start to a family. He says that she pressured him and figured since he was married and wanted a family to go ahead.<P>He said I showed him love like he never knew could exist, only in his dreams, I was the girl of his dreams. Everything he ever wanted his exact specifications.<P>Yeah, he knew exactly how to push my buttons.<P>Boy, I feel really sorry for his wife.<P>I just thought of something else. I listed one of my OM's good points was that he wasn't disrepectful and had lots of patience. I remember when his son was first born, his wife was a basketcase, would call him like 20 times a day, I guess about the formula, and I don't know to pick things up from the store (his son needed a special formula, was colicty) and boy, the whole area he sits in used to hear how he'd hang up on her, was very rude and I remember asking him if everything was OK and he would say "she's having trouble changing my son, so she calls me at work, like I have nothing to do here, I'm working, can't she call her mother". <P>At the time I thought he's wife was being alittle unreasonable calling him so much but then again I'm only getting his side of the story.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 30, 1999).]

Yeah, Hum, Just Learning is right -- this guy sounds sleazier and sleazier every time you talk about him. One thing you should have learned here: Every troubled marriage is troubled because of TWO people. Even his. <P>But enough of that.<P>You asked a question, and no, I have no problem answering. I have never really wanted children. I never played with baby dolls, never went nuts over babies. I was never around babies as a child, since I was the younger of two.<P>I hated babysitting. I always sat for bratty kids.<P>By the time I was in college, I already knew. In fact, I did a sociology term paper on being voluntarily childless when I was just 20.<P>Yet at the same time, there was this nebulous assumption that if I ever married, I would probably have kids. But while I could envision being pregnant and caring for an infant, I could never see myself raising children. One reason I think it took me so long to marry is that I was terrified of having to make that decision.<P>When I met my H and he was pretty clear about not wanting kids, well, suddenly I was able to sustain a relationship. Hmmmmm.....think there's a connection?<P>I got into my 30's, then late 30's, and still didn't hear the clock ticking. My friends had kids, and it still didn't trigger any "I gotta have one" in me.<P>Now I'm 44, and almost out of time, and I still don't regret it. Not in this culture. It's just too hard. I work very hard, and I have my hobbies, and a husband who needs a lot of attention. He would not take kindly with sharing me with children. This is one thing that keeps PSBFH from being too much of a threat -- she has a child.<P>I love animals. Dogs, cats, if it was up to me I'd have a houseful. But kids? No. <P>I have asked H periodically through the years if he still feels the same way, mostly because I think that to be fair to yourself and your spouse, you should revisit the issue every now and then. And the answer always comes up the same way.<P>I think too many people in our society have children because they think it's just what you do. They think it's mandatory. Why be married without children? They think they owe it to their parents to give them grandchildren. Or perhaps they don't want to have to listen to "Oh, you still have time yet." I don't know why people are so threatened by the idea that someone else might not want children. Maybe misery loves company. Just kidding.<P>I'm very supportive of my friends who have kids. I do not babysit for them, for a couple of reasons. First of all, I'm just not that good with kids. Most of my friends' kids like me because they think I'm funny and I bring them stuff. But I'm not good with kids. Children are not rational, and I find that frustrating! I just can't deal with the tantrums, the screaming for no reason, the tears every time someone says no, the yelling about how the same soup they've eaten for weeks is somehow now "different."<P>Second of all, if anything should ever happen to these kids, I do not want to be on the list of suspects. I think we all know what happens to people who are suspected of child abuse, whether sexual or not. And when your kids are molested, everyone who's been with them, even your best friend, is a suspect. I have no desire to deal with that. Sure, it's a remote possibility that such a problem could arise. But still...if it happens to you, it's not remote. Perhaps I'm just overly paranoid, but I know what kind of culture I live in. And I know that people who have CHOSEN not to have children are automatically regarded as "odd", "weird", and "strange".<P>Does that answer your question?

Wow Dazed,<P>Your funny . I don't think your weird, or strange at all!! I was curious that maybe you had sacraficed having a child for your husband. So I guess if your husband had changed his mind over the years and really wanted a child, it would of been a real problem. I think it's great that both of you were always in agreement with it.<P>Unfortunately Dazed, I have that feeling and I feel my life is missing a child. It's hard to explain in words. You know I had a thought yesterday, me and my husband have been married for 8 years and "usually" always used protection, I've never had a "close call", I said to myself "God, what if I can't have children?", boy that's scary to me, I got really scared and I'm going to stop thinking of that.<P>Anyway, this may sound strange but last night me and my husband were talking about our dog (he's 8), we got him 3 months before we married. My husband absolutely loves animals, if it were up to him we'd live on a farm, do you know we even have 6 chickens that lay 5-6 brown eggs everyday! Totally his idea (we have a nice piece of property and in NJ the limit for us was 6), he built this great little house for them. <P>Me and my husband had talked about possibly getting dog (he always had dogs growing up, I never did) when we married. He wanted a big dog to protect me when he wasn't home. So I get this call at work from him, "there's a lady I know who has a 3 month old husky, it's going to the pound, she can't keep it, want to look at it", I said "No, I don't want a husky (picturing black & white, blue eyes), I wanted to go to a breeder and I really wanted a pure breed shepard, plus I wanted a female, this was a male, PLUS I haven't even decided if I really wanted a dog, all that work and stuff, he said "come on, the poor thing needs a home, let's just look at it". So OK I did, with every intention of saying yeah, he's cute but forget it, I went to just pacify him. <P>Well, I got to that house, and this clumsy, little brown, white and black puppy came out, with this huge head and big brown eyes and I melted. He jumped right in my arms. I said immediately "yes, I want him". It was love at first sight and he has been the BEST dog ever. I love him to death, he is my big baby. He's alot of work but worth every minute, I couldn't imagine not having him.<P>OK what I'm getting at is maybe my husband would be the same with a child. I know it's a REAL stretch but am I making sense?<BR>

As stated above, do not have a child unless you are both ready and your marriage is healed.<P>Having said that, you may find you H warms to children in porportion to how your marriage is healing. Maybe not.<P>I was like Dazed, except I assumed I'd always want kids....someday. Well I got pregnant before someday, and I adore my kids. Adore. Although, Dazed, if you are reading this, it is rare to never my kids act that way. It is simply not tolerated. So far (knock on wood) we have three healthy interesting intelligent girls with no major and few minor behavior incidents (and we have a no spanking policy in our house, so we are not tyrants). I like most of their friends, who always seem to select our house to "hang" at, but you know what? I still don't like kids. I am never a room mother, would do just about anything except run a daycare and I get nervious when I'm in a room with more than a few kids. <P>Also Dazed, if you are reading this...got you down...still working on H. I've been at work and last night on date with H. Best kind of busy.<P>Anyway, Hum, I also have a freebie Huskie mix puppy that's brown, black and white with melt you brown eyes. She's 16 now and I can't imagine life without her . Everyone warned us she wouldn't like our first child, but immediately left our room for hers and welcomed all three girls and takes "care" of them even know in her own way. H also talked me into her and I was going to say "no" until I saw her shivering in the pen. I scooped her up and said, "let's go"!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi, Hum, (Ho, Hum?! )<P>Once again I'm late climbing aboard but had to jump on!<P>It sounds like you are me 15 yrs ago. My H Dunc didn't want to have kids either - turns out he was *scared*, big-time... of not being a good father, of the financial & other responsibilities, of whatever... he was just really scared to take the plunge. It gradually became a source of stress in our marriage too. We'd been married 6 1/2 yrs when I started my affair at the age of 28 (almost 29). I think the 'kid issue' was a contributing factor (tho there were many others). After 2 yrs of marriage counseling, with us doing well, our counselor (who knows us both REALLY well - we still see her periodically for "fine-tuning" & depression/meds management), threw up her hands in frustration and said "LOOK - I very rarely come right out & TELL people what to do - but would you guys go ahead & GET PREGNANT ALREADY????" Half in jest - but it proved to be the push Dunc needed - and 11 months later we were parents.<P>Dunc, upon hearing that "the stick turned blue", slapped himself on the forehead with his palm and said "oh, sh*t!". Not *quite* the reaction I would have preferred... actually, I thought it was funny & teased him about it. Talk about green & pale! But it was too late now! And he was wonderful throughout the pregnancy... and, as Just Learning said, fell in love with his son once he could see and touch and smell him. Head over heels. So that's one more story to add to your collection.<P>Something else I have to say... we've all heard the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words", right? Your OM has all the flowery words about creating a child in love, wanting a family, being a father, yada yada yada... but look at the picture that is behind those words: unenthusiastic during his W's pregnancy; rude and dismissive and nasty when she called him at work (I have had TWO very colicky babies, and let me tell you: IT IS HELL); cheating on his W, the mother of his baby; spending time and emotional energy, that is sorely needed at home, on an affair ... yeah, he's a real prince of a guy! *Please* realize that the husband you're seeing him be with *her* is the husband he would be with YOU. Your best interest lies in intellectually understanding that this guy is a fantasy created for, and by, you - and then take whatever steps neccessary to break the grip of the addiction. I think getting away from him at work is the most effective way to start. Fanning those embers ain't helping! (Trust me - been there, done that)<P>Hum I see LOTS of good potential in your marriage. It deserves a chance. I agree with K that however things turn out, you can never go wrong aquiring new "tools" to put under your belt. I don't think your counselor is doing much good. In fairness, she may be going easy on you early on so as not to frighten you away... but I've heard some really good things about Harley & think it's worth at least looking into.<P>You are on a journey now, Hum. I didn't realize this in my own life until after the fact. You're having "growing pains" right now! Emotional ones. This is really normal, and neccessary, in a person's life - we grow in "spurts", and often it's painful. Our instinct is to frantically look around for something (or someone)to blame when we are hurting - to find "the cause" of the pain - and unfortunately, many people finger their marriage as the problem, and wind up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. <P>You really need to, as FHL suggested, think about and define *your* values, and do your best to live by them. Sometimes this feels very hard... but in the long run, 'doing the right thing' (however you define that) gets you where you want to go. There were many times I didn't follow my own advice... and my soul suffered for it... the longer I kept plugging away at trying to do the right things, the stronger and more whole I became. The journey itself, while very painful, was very valuable. I built character; I learned to define my own life and what I wanted from it, instead of allowing it to define me (as so many of us in affairs do). It is not neccessarily going to be a "fast fix" - but IMO, is ultimately the only way to go.... and the rewards are enormous, both personally, and in terms of the growth & depth of your marriage. <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Thanks everyone,<P>Does anyone know can I call Steve here and still go to another counselor, or is it one counselor at time? Maybe I'll just call and ask.<P>It never hurts to get as much information as possible and I'm hoping the more I get the more the OM will vanish from this thick skull of mine.<P>I wanted to share a couple of nice things my husband did, while they are very small, then meant alot to me. <P>First, he went off hunting this morning at 5:00AM, came home around 10:00AM and actually bought me a bagel cause he figured I was hungry. <P>Then later he said to me "I was thinking about going to a bed & breakfast in New York State, what do you think?" I said sure! Let's find weekend!!<P>Now he's off hunting again, and told me he's going again tomorrow morning, but he'll be home by 10:00AM again and that'll be it for the weekend, so he says "tomorrow after I get home, when the stores open since you really liked going to the bookstore and having cappachino with your sister, you want to do that with me?" I said "sure!! really, if you would sit in the cafe with me and have coffee, I'd love to go".<P>Anyway, I know there little things, but it made me feel good .<P>

WOW! <P>Those are not small things, Hum... those are love gifts. Your H is sticking his neck out to try to make contact with a woman he obviously loves very much!<P>After nearly losing those kinds of connections with Dunc, I can't tell you how tickled I am now to have a Starbuck's date or an invitation to a weekend away... these are sweet, sweet gestures from your H. I'm happy for you!

Hummingbird,<P>Suse is right. And we have been telling you, your H does love you. It seems to me he is processing things and making an effort. It may seem small but the GRAND GESTURES were your OM speciality and I think you and everyone else here are coming to the same conclusions about him.<P>I hope you enjoy these things because they are what really make a marriage go.<P>Once again, don't worry about your H and children. Actually, Dazed really gave you some sound advise. People who have decided they do not want children know that they don't and they are absolutely correct in their decision. More importantly when they know they don't want children, they can and will make it very clear. Your H has not done that. He is more like the rest of us males, "Oh! do I have too?" <P>Have a good weekend.

wonderful "little" things that mean so much...<P>Hugs <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hum, those are lovely gestures on the part of your H. Here's why:<P>Your H knows on some level that you NEED these "romantic" things -- whether you've told him or not, he KNOWS. And these are his way of doing those things -- the kinds of things he knows you'll like.<P>Even though you two are not communicating well right now, it sounds like you're making slow progress. You've gotten good advice here about OM...and the more your H does these nice things, the more manipulative and shallow OM's sweeping words and gestures will seem.<P>Be sure that you let your H know how much you appreciate these thoughtful things. Men are like dogs -- they train much better by using positive reinforcement than by using punishment!

Hum - I stayed away from posting here for a while, you were getting such great advice from everyone else, I couldn't add anything.<P>But - WOW - to the "little" things you're H is doing now! He's paying attention, listening and thinking about the things that are important to you. I am very proud. Of him for taking that step and you for guiding him there. I know how hard it's been for you.<P>Enjoy this. There will be more. I have high hopes for the two of you.<P>Lori

Hummingbird,<BR>Those little things are great! Enjoy your morning. Be your most charming self!<P>Even if you didn't end up with OM, but started over, the percentage of people who would have an ex and kids are high. The rest, if they haven't been married may have a hard time with commitment and/or be pretty self centered from just being used to being on their own.<P>Hey if your H was any more romantic, he'd be sweeping you up on a white horse. I think he's doing a great job, especially for him and you need to make sure you keep seeing him in the best possible light.<P>Have fun!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13