I should have clarified, I know Dr. H says its an EN. I just figured when I read it that it was just a clever way of motivating women to do it. Just a dressed up PhD version of the "If you really loved me you would do it" line that any girl over the age of 14 or 15 has heard countless times. It's a total clique, but men use it because it typically works, if you can convince a woman that love and sex are somehow tied together then it appeals to her basic instincts to love and nurture so she gives in and does it.

I wasnt raised to see sex and love as connected. It was just something men say to get into your pants, and if you had any self respect as a woman you would NOT be stupid enough to believe it. The best way not to get hurt is to look at sex the way that men do, as physical release. "Think like a man, so you dont get played like a girl".

I dont have a clue about sexual intimacy, I assume you mean the difference between having sex and making love...I was taught making love happens in movies and romance novels, it is a nice thought but it falls in with things like unicorns and fairies...it just doesnt exist in the realm of reality.

I certainly havent seen anything since I grew up to contradict what I was taught.

If sex was such an emotional experience then why are prostitutes and pornography so popular? No emotion to it, but men pay dearly for it because it meets the physical need.

If it's about emotion then why all the complaining (even on the forums here) about wives that wont do oral, or want SF in the missionary position all the time? That's a physical complaint, because it's not as visually satisfying, or as physically pleasurable. If it was going to be emotional, then haiving SF in the missionary position would be the prefered way since it brings you into close physical proximity to your partner and allows eye contact.

My H cant give me an answer, other than that yes sometimes even with wives it's just a physical thing.

I can give him a thousand examples of it being a physical thing only, he cant give me ONE of it being an emotional thing.

I feel like is trying to manipulate me, but I cant figure out why. I am already giving him SF so there really isnt a need for it. The only thing I can think of is that he just doesnt like having a level playing field where both partners actually know whats really going on.

He told me to work on my "man hating issues".

I dont think I have man hating issues, I just refuse to live in some fantasy world. Why would I deny the truth when the evidence is right in front of my face?

Men seem perfectly happy hopping around the bars picking up different girls, no strings attached, no intimacy, just the thrill of the chase.

So no, I guess I just dont get it, and even if I could accept that its an emotional thing I dont have any idea how to make myself feel something for him at those times when I just simply dont.

Wow! I hardly know where to start! I'll have to think about it.



I wasn't raised to see sex and love as connected.
Well, actually, very few of us were. The connection comes after the love is in place. Look, as a young man, my goal, as with any other guy, (Hey, it was the '60s - lighten up!) was to score. "Sex" and "love" were two different concepts, pursued under seemingly totally different environments and schedules. I WANTED sex; I was OPEN TO falling in love. After that happened, the quality, no, the TEXTURE of sex changed, when it eventually occurred with the wonderful girl who eventually became my wife, whose first lover was me, so I can't ask her for help here. You ask for help from guys here, and I really think you need some advice from your fellow girls. I'm so deeply sorry that the linkage hasn't yet formed for you that SEX is a vitally important element of the way two people in love interact.

I was taught making love happens in movies and romance novels,
I'd like to grab your teacher and slap her(?) around - a lot! No one says that the "waves-crashing-on-the-shore, horses-rearing-up, lightning-flashing" connection happens every time a couple "gets busy" - but it can, for anyone. So make your goal to try to get there. (Probably not going to be the first time after hubby gets home from a two-year absence, so don't get you hopes up!) The reason novels and movies portray it that way is because the authors/screenwriters know it can be that way. It's drama, yes, not science fiction!

why are prostitutes and pornography so popular?
Two different issues here, and I'm WAAAY out on a limb with both answers.
Prostitutes - (This might hurt, RFA, so stay with me.) I owned an inner city appartment building, and I became aware that two girls sharing a unit were prostitutes. I asked them, "Why do you have customers." Ignoring the guys that were NEVER going to score non-commercially, their answer was that the married guys that utilized their services did it because their wives weren't interested enough in the activity to make it worth their while to convince them to partake. It was easier to spend the $50 for a BJ from a pro. (The old joke about foreplay being 20 minutes of the husband begging!)
Porn - Possibly related to the hooker question, if the guy is utilizing porn to "take care of business" on his own (and saves the $50). But in a less "active" sense, porn is to guys what those romance novels are to women - an imaginary stimulant to an interst-point in the observer's brain.

I dont think I have man hating issues
Okay, but your husband feels strongly enough to say that he thinks you do. I'm out here in cyber-land, so have nothing to help you with. You, however, have a husband who evidently thinks your .... hate? distrust? disregard?.... of men is interfering with your relationship. You and he must fix this, together.

And saving the roughest for last:

Just a dressed up PhD version of the "If you really loved me you would do it" line that any girl over the age of 14 or 15 has heard countless times.
Yup, assuming you and your husband were both 15, this would have weight. Sometime between 15 y/o and my advanced years however, the vector of this statement in committed, loving couples changes to:

"Since we really love each other you and I would happily do it"

So there is a difference in the way a man looks at SF when it is just with anyone, and when there is love involved. Thats going to require me to completely reevaluate pretty much everything I ever believed. Mostly I thought that the difference was that when they got a woman to love them, that just meant that it was easier to get since she became available to meet the need whenever instead of having to go and chase it down...



Some of it is my mother, but she was physically and sexually abused as a child and has been married six times, five of them to men who were abusive. Now that I think about it that probably makes her not the best source. The rest of it comes from having a lot of guy friends when I was younger...they were often very mean and selfish to the to women they were with. I've seen every dirty and underhanded trick in the book, heard every possible disrespectful comment, but they were young so maybe its just something that comes with love like you said...


Thats part of my pain, because I didnt ever deny him. Not when I was sick, or tired, or when I had to ask him to stop so I could throw up because the morning sickness was so bad...we were back to it less than 2 weeks after my C-section...and I loved him...and he threw me away to sleep with a prostitute and a bunch of bar skanks...

and then he tells me that it just isnt right that I dont feel emotion and that SF is better with it. Really? I cant even process that, logically I understand the addiction and everything, but its really hard not to laugh when he complains about this.


It's distrust. I dont DISLIKE men, but I dont trust them. I was taught early that men lie, hit, steal and cheat. I dont leave my children alone with them, and I get very nervous being around angry men or men that have been drinking. So maybe not distrust, I fear men.
Even the ones I love. You can never tell when the hitting might start, or what they might do to the kids.

I THOUGHT my H was different, but after all the cheating...he is just another mean boy that cant be trusted.

So I need to work on that, not sure how but I will figure it out.

there is a difference in the way a man looks at SF when it is just with anyone, and when there is love involved.

A bit of a disclaimer here - I am not psychologically trained, nor am I fluent in the statistics reflecting the distribution among men of various emotions and sensitivities. I gave you my experience, my current state of consideration of SF with my wife. Keep in mind:

- There are lifelong committed "hounds" out there whose only driving force forever remains that of the prototypical horny 16 y/o.
- The "NeverGuesseds" of today, which husband answered your question, has not been a constant for the almost 39 years we have been together. There were periods of strain, when the children were young and time-consuming, or when she was starting her post-SAHM career, for instance, when "Yeah, okay, let's get this over with," was the response I recieved when I initiated discussion in this arena.

In your quote above you specifically pointed out that this is the way "a man", not "men" see this linked love-sex activity. That would be correct, but add that it is the way it "can" be, not definitively "is".


they were often very mean and selfish to the to women they were with. I've seen every dirty and underhanded trick in the book, heard every possible disrespectful comment,

I am presuming these sad characteristics did not irrefutably define your fiance, and do not currently define your husband. Shall I waste time here describing some of the heinous actions I have been witness to by members of your gender? Yup, all sorts of slimeballs are out there. I didn't marry one of THEM; I would hope you can feel you did not either.


It's distrust. I dont DISLIKE men, but I dont trust them. I was taught early that men lie, hit, steal and cheat. I dont leave my children alone with them, and I get very nervous being around angry men or men that have been drinking. So maybe not distrust, I fear men. Even the ones I love. You can never tell when the hitting might start, or what they might do to the kids.

I was going to ask why, if this has been your long-term opinion of the characteristics of my gender, did you ever MARRY one, when I put together your age and that of your oldest child. Okay, "girls", coming from as dysfunctional a parental environment as you say you did, and having children so young, could be expected to have difficulties in establishing the necessary levels of trust and affection.

But....you have to fix this, RFA. Like it or not, if you're unbreakably linking your husband's CORE values to the worst of the actions of slimeballs you have seen, your marriage really is doomed. And I know he didn't help with his infidelity, but I note that your epilogue (and thank you for your integrity in this) lists yourself as "FWW/BW". If you are determined NOT to be defined as the first, you must accord him the same consideration.

Read your statement. Now, replace that with "conversation." Does it sound just as ridiculous? It should!

As you read through the articles, you will stumble across a part where Dr. Harley talks about giving a woman a testosterone supplement - while on the supplement, her sex drive goes up to a point where she has to "excuse herself several times a day just to get relief." He was alluding to the effect of testosterone on sex drive.

Estrogen, the female hormone, works a different way; if you put men on estrogen, they become more verbal - studies have shown that the verbal and communication centers of the brain become very active under the effects of estrogen.



What a sad upbringing. You've read my description as to how I look at sex with my wife. So, I don't think you thinking very much "like a man," and definitely not like this man. It's very, very sad you carried this view into marriage. I think FWW did as well, though.


That's fantastic. Really. You know what? It's also crap. You aren't an 8-year-old. What mamma told you, you should have learned by now how to separate her personal dysfunctions from reality. Unless, of course, you wish to use her as a model for how you will live.

You obviously have your own mind, right? Use it a little. Ya'll ain't Forrest Gump, is ya? No, you are a 23(4?)-year-old woman. "Mamma always said" should have lost it's weight some time ago - probably along the time you examined her life, and decided that it wasn't what you wanted for yourself or your children.


I am absolutely certain that you have, and chose to ignore it because rather than confirming this belief you hold on to, it disproved it. It's called confirmation bias, and we all do it when we value our own beliefs over truth.


Who's to say that a prostitute isn't providing an emotional experience? Are you saying that they don't provide conversation, admiration, and companionship as well as sex?

You know what they don't do? They don't judge disrespectfully, they don't scream about the dishes, and their financial demands are straight forward.

30 minutes of need-meeting without any love-busting for $250.

Porn? Been around since cave-paintings. Been around as long as written language. And it's always been exaggerated and unrealistic. Meets the physical need portion, and not much else.


Would it? Have you not explored the wonders of spooning? I dare say that spooning actually allows closer contact than missionary. I would say that cowgirl allows eye contact. I would say it takes being vulnerable to break out of the whole missionary-only-with-the-lights-out thing.

Oral? What's wrong with oral? What exactly makes it wrong? What makes it "dirty?" Perception, assumption, judgment.

What makes any act that a husband and wife choose to explore with each other "wrong," or "dirty?"

Nothing if they are within PoJA.


Maybe not specifically - but due to his cruel decision to look outside of his marriage, he knows the difference between sex with some random plug, and the woman he committed his life to, doesn't he?


Ever wonder what it would be like if you only ever ate dry bread every day? Yes, you are being fed - but you aren't being properly nourished, nor do you know what it feels like to be satisfied by your meal.

You are patting yourself on the back for tossing him dry bread, and then asking him why he's complaining?


Stonewall.

No, you refuse to live in the real world, and chose to live in a gray fantasy world of bleakness and misery.

Again, you are only looking for the evidence that confirms your bias, and nothing that disproves it.

YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE MESSAGE BOARD FULL OF EVIDENCE THAT DISPROVES YOUR MISERABLE VIEW, AND YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT.


And women seem perfectly happy laying on their backs for drunken bar douchenozzles.

So what is your freaking point?

Some women trap men with babies, some are gold diggers... blah blah blah blah blah.

Get over yourself, sug.


I guess you don't. I guess you refuse to. You willingly do so.

That's on you.

Number one:
Kudos for admitting such a thing.
Your honesty is to be commended.

Number two:
You are the woman I would not trust around my children for any length of time.
Your beliefs about men are poison to young minds.

Girls will learn to never fully give themselves in marriage (if they ever get as far as married).
Boys will learn they are scum anyway, so why act differently?

YOUR beliefs are dangerous for children to be around. ! . !


How's THAT for a ???

I would much rather my children spend time with a man who loves and respects women, or a woman who loves and respects men.

Please, do not try and say you keep your deeply rooted feelings to yourself.
Don't go there and ruin your honesty.

The purpose of my posting this to you is to show you how having a blanket distrust of the entire male gender makes you untrustworthy.

Think it over.

And .....

I will get back to you NG, since I need to think through what you posted. You made very good points, and I want to give them proper consideration before I answer.

HHH,

Testosterone's affect on the sex drive is not in dispute, it's a well known fact. That's a physical drive for sex, which is, again, not the issue I have. Proving testosterone creates a physical need for sex doesnt have anything to do with whether or not sex is an emotional thing.


What I meant by that was more that I was taught men think a certain way about sex, and that it was safest to adopt that same attitude. From talking to my H and reading posts by you and NG, I am open to the possibility that the way I previously viewed the situation was wrong.




So I guess you brought nothing with you to adulthood that was ever taught by your parents then? You learned nothing about life, or values, or what be cautious of from the people who raised you? I asked the question to see if my thinking was wrong, and raised issues that I believed supported my opinion to get other people's views. I am open to having my mind changed if those views prove my opinion incorrect. The personal attack is not necessary.




If everyone does it, then I dont think me doing it is grounds for you to attack me. At least I am here asking for help, and willing to consider that I may have been wrong.



I'll keep that touching sentiment in mind the next time I have nightmares about my H screwing a prostitute...It's my fault for asking him that once to help with the dishes.

He should have kept her, $250 is a lot cheaper than the $1700 a month it takes to support me and the kids.

What happened to your stance on sexual intimacy? Or does paying some female you care nothing about to spread her legs and pretend she's attracted to you count, as long as you cant tell she's faking?


Dont like spooning, but I do see the point about the vulnerability. I dont see how these men expect to get that vulnerability from a woman who has told them that they are not comfortable with something if they are still pressuring her to do it anyway. Thats not a loving action, since it doesnt take her feelings into account. If getting cowgirl is more important to a man than his wife's comfort or enjoyment, then it's not surprising that she doesnt want to be vulnerable to him. Thats not making love, it's putting his sexual enjoyment as more important that her feelings.

I looked up the definition of sexual intimacy and part of it is being able to deny something to your partner without fear of being ridiculed, pressured or put down. So in my opinion, those men are not seeking intimacy, they are seeking getting off...at her expense. It does not build trust, and trust is a big factor in intimacy.



Nothing is wrong with it...if it's within POJA. I see a lot men trying to get it when their wives are clearly not enthusiastic. That destroys the trust and the intimacy. Again it's not emotional if you are trying to get get off at her expense.


I guess that is the million dollar question isnt it? DOES HE? IDK.


I dont see how. he gets regular sex, at least once a day and often times more. I initiate, I have zero problem giving him oral, or in doing different positions, trying new things. I enjoy the act itself, and I am a responsive partner.

His only complaint is that it doesnt make me feel all gooey and emotional inside. I give him the same thing he got from the OW's and he seemed happy enough with it from them.

Plus I get all emotional over him at other times.



Point me to a thread where the H is getting regular sex and complaining about a lack of emotion in it and I will concede your point. I have seen threads on no sex at all (which is a legitmate complaint, but not my situation), and threads on not getting the sex acts they want (which I think supports my point more than yours, since it destroys intimacy).

{quote]Some women trap men with babies, some are gold diggers... blah blah blah blah blah.[/quote]

I dont need to be married to a woman, so that really isnt of any concern to me. Women can be disgusting human beings, but since I dont need to spend my life with one it doesnt matter if I trust them or not.



I'm not your sug. You dont have to help or post to me if you dont want to, but if you do I am going to have to ask that you do it respectfully. I am not your W, and while I am sorry that you feel this was something lacking in your M, I am trying to fix this issue for my H, so please dont use me as an outlet for your pent up frustrations.


Maybe, but attacking me and talking to me like I am stupid really isnt helping. I'm trying to consider your points as valid, and ignore the bitter and hateful tone of the post, but I dont really see a need for the tone in the first place.

OK, thats a valid point. I wouldnt my kids to grow up around someone who hates women, and I can see in myself the damage that it causes to be raised with someone who has my attitude. I'm thinking about it, and thanks for the hugs.

If you really, honestly, sincerely believe that I was attacking you, I suggest you click the report bottom on the bottom of my post and have the moderators remove it, along with this post.

Why? Because sugar coating and punch-pulling is something for the spineless.





If you think that the buck stops there, I suggest you think a little harder.

We aren't quite reptiles, so even when it comes down to base physical needs, there is emotion involved in how they are or are not met. It can be sex, or it can be sleep, or it can be hunger - when it is met well and pleasantly, we are happy. When it isn't met, we are sad, scared, or grumpy.


No, it wasn't "safest to adopt the same attitude." It has caused you to behave dysfunctionally in your relationships. It wasn't wrong of you to want to protect yourself, but it was like you protected yourself from rape by becoming a rapist...


Some of what I learned wasn't taught, but observed. I learned a lot of what the wrong way to do things was from my parents. Because I rejected their lessons, I protect myself from making their mistakes.

I'm not of a "blame my parents for my failures, thank them for my successes" mindset. I have 2 siblings that are.

I am no victim, and my parents didn't ruin me. If they did, it would be my fault because I allowed it. If you cannot question the world around you, or question those who raised you... if you can't have the strength to question God at times, then why try?




O...k... so you took offense to something you state yourself shouldn't have been offensive, right? Of all the statements made, the reaction to this one is... strange.



Hope that works for you just as well as the idea that the very existence of porn and prostitution disproves that sexual intimacy exists.

You made a claim; sexual intimacy and emotional connection cannot exist because prostitution and porn exist.

I gave you an answer. Don't like the answer? Not my problem. Don't make slippery-slope claims if you aren't prepared for them to explode.


That's all it should take, since there is nothing emotional involved, per your belief, correct?

So what separates a woman paid to do this for a set amount of time from my wife, IF THEIR ATTITUDE IS THE SAME?


How does this fit into your argument that intimacy or emotional connection with sex simply do not exist? This sounds like going from stating it doesn't exist, to stating it exists... BUT NOT FOR MEN! Exactly what are your rules of engagement here?


Is that what they are talking about? Is this your professional opinion, taking all the information in a case-by-case basis into account? Or is this the opinion of a person with a low opinion of men, a dysfunctional view of sex, and a limited amount of information?

You are reaching for only the instances which support your view, not those which disprove it, of which there are probably MORE OF on this board. Those cases are quiet because they don't need help to overcome the pain of dysfunction.



Define "a lot," please provide examples.


I hope he does, or I hope he will. I certainly hope that intimacy exists with his wife, at least. At this time, I wouldn't expect it as a constant, as he kind of spat on it.


Oh, did he? If that was the case, then why is he with you? Ooooh, that's right, because what they gave him was crap. Because the whole pull with them was crap. RFA - you see being emotionally engaged and intimate with your husband as some kind of weakness, but trying to emulate his affair partners is acceptable? Really?




Like?



The emotional aspect is the "F" in SF. I would be willing to gamble that half of the men out there complaining about SF are actually complaining about the emotional aspect, and are just too "manly" to own up to it.

You want an example - any man who has made the statement, or has felt like, he is just "using his wife's body to masturbate." One of the infidelity letters on this site states that.

All this crap about frequency, and oral, and positions - it's all men looking for the right thing in all the wrong places.

They aren't saying it's the emotional connection, but I would bet money, and be rich, that this is more the root cause than any other issue.


I dont need to be married to a woman, so that really isnt of any concern to me. Women can be disgusting human beings, but since I dont need to spend my life with one it doesnt matter if I trust them or not.[/quote]

Sorry about that one. It's a general frustration; MEN blah blah blah! Well, WOMEN blah blah BLAH!

I really think it's... retarded. Here's my basic view; women are functionally insane. Men are functionally retarded. Each must be the other to exist together. Women have to be crazy to not see how stupid men are, men have to be stupid to not see how crazy women are.

Whatever. C'est la vie.


Who said anything is lacking in my M now? It's still on the mend, and I'd say a long way to go, but I don't really find anything lacking. If that is enough to make up for betrayal, time will only tell...


Text is poor at conveying tone and context, and more often than not, the translation is up to the reader. I can't control that. Again, I don't sugar coat or pull punches to protect myself from being misinterpreted. That's a flaw in situations like this, or any situation in which a rebuttal or counterpoint is being made.

You have both the right and the choice to be angry or offended.

Don't become your damaged mother.

((( HUGS )))

PS:
Continued KUDOS for honesty !!!

RFA-
On balance, I regret attempting to work through these issues with you because what could have been of value to you has been hijacked by a female-hating, "never-got-over-his WW's-actions" bully, whose idea of establishing the value of his acid-filled comments is to taunt you to notify the mods and attempt to get his garbage burned.

I would ask that you refrain from requesting that action, because in future discussions, when someone asks about the range and depth of the emotional toll on a BS, I'll direct them to read his "contributions" to this thread.

How slimy. You take me out of context, and use that as ammunition to make assumptions and elevate yourself.

Your claim that I am a female-hater is based off of what? The generalities I stated were not my belief, but an illustration of how ridiculous and unfounded gender based generalities are.

Whether or not I have "gotten over WW's actions" is neither relevant, nor my basis of approach. I regard RFA as a BS, even though she has corrected me that she is both BS/WS. Additionally, where I am in my own M is why I regard it as in recovery and not recovered. No, I am not "over it" nor do I project it against other posters, even less so to the OP of this thread. What I am, is working with MB principals with my FWW in hopes that through time and action, we will heal.

If I share my experiences, it is to align perspective. Beyond that, DJ behavior is avoided with my wife, I am filling no lovebanks here.

Pick someone else to make you look good in comparison, I will not be your scapegoat.

It's not a problem NG. That being said though my H has been keeping track of the posts dealing with this issue and he feels we have gotten off subject with the problem he wants me to deal with.

He knows about my past and my trust problems, and he understands them. I misunderstood apparently what he meant about dealing with my issues. He wants me to deal with my misconception that men do not feel emotion during sex, since that is what causes me to detach from him emotionally at that time. The rest of it is not something that he feels is an issue in our M.

I understand that getting a background on why I have always believed that is important, but dragging all this up is making me sad and upset.

I can continue to discuss ways to be more emotionally involved in the SF part of our relationship, but he is not enthusiastic about me discussing past issues any more.

I am convinced from what has been said to me that I was wrong on this subject, and that I need to find a way to emotionally connect with him. So if anyone has any ideas on how to accomplish that I would be grateful. Something action based if possible.

I need to stick to that, because if I get upset again then H is going to ask me to lock the thread.

And HHH we are arguing in cirles, I dont need to report you to the mods. Things come across wrong in print, and this subject is an emotional one for me, and I suspect it might be to you as well. I admit to defeat, as long as you dont compare me to Forest Gump again.

I am convinced from what has been said to me that I was wrong on this subject, and that I need to find a way to emotionally connect with him.

Wonderful! In just over a week, your best "study buddy" in this subject will be home. Good luck. Keep us advised as to how things develop, and check in with anything you think we can assist with.

Thank you for being graceful, and pointing out where you feel I got off course. The reference was for contrast rather than comparison.

We cannot change our past, but we can DECIDE how we let it effect us. We have the choice to accept or reject our life lessons, to take our failures as an opportunity to learn, or we can blame others and deny our responsibility for our own actions.

I really think you ARE trying to do that, but like any life change, it is a process.

Well, WOW !




Behavior based change.
Go for it.

I'll be thinking about this and get back to you when I get a genius idea.

See what happens when you are honest with yourself?
You get REAL.

I have a starter suggestion.
It's really dumb.
But, do it anyway.

Go buy a copy of the children's book

"The Velveteen Rabbit"

When you can, read it aloud TO your DH, in bed.
You must read to DH slowly and with feeling.
Every word counts.

Sounds like fun homework to me

Not everything considered to be "working on the marriage" needs to feel like root canal.

Thank you everybody.

Pep, I like the idea, is there a special reason why you chose that book?

Hell yes, there is a special reason.

Mr. Pep read to me from that book at our wedding.
It's a special book.

You both will enjoy it.
It will draw you closer, especially in the intimacy of bedtime reading.

You'll see.

Plus, you have a 5 year old.
You need this book.

ack, phone ate half my post, repost in the AM.