Oh, I'm sorry to hear all this, Valeriean. Of course you don't trust him! He's proved himself to be untrustworthy! Of course you feel lost! You thought you were rebuilding your foundation and now you find out that's not the case.

Let's back up for a minute. How long have you been married? Any kids?

To whom did you expose originally? Have you re-exposed?

Have you contacted OW to tell her to leave your WH the hell alone?

Have you started snooping? (You never should have stopped.)

Valerie, sorry you are back here. The contact you did find tells me there is probably more but it is well hidden. The fact that he won't end contact and that there is no PLAN here tells me you are in a false recovery. Which is much worse that the initial D Day.

My suggestion would be to go into Plan B, which is a separation, until he ends all contact. Your marriage can never recover unless a) he ends all contact and b) you establish a plan of recovery to restore the love in your marriage. The plan you are in, Dr Harley calls "PLAN C" for compromise, is the most likely to lead to divorce. That is because recovery is impossible so the crippled state of your marriage becomes more and more entrenched.

I would first go to him and give him a chance to agree to your non-negotiable terms. [and they are non-negotiable because you don't have a marriage without them, but rather a long slow death of a thousand cuts] Tell him you love him very much and want to have a loving passionate marriage with him again. Tell him that cannot happen as long as the OW is still in his life and there is no plan of recovery. Tell him "this is what it will take to keep me interested in staying in this marriage: end all contact with OW for life, open up your life with complete transparecy to alleviate my anxiety, end all opposite sex friendships, and commit to a program of recovery. Otherwise we need to make plans to separate."

If he agrees to it, pull out a plan of recovery and start discussing it. Ask him to send the OW a no contact letter that is approved by you and mailed together. [use the one in SAA]

If he won't agree, then you have nothing to lose by separating and going into Plan B. If anything will pull him off the fence, it will be Plan B. In your current state he is having his cake and eating it too. Getting his needs met in 2 places has become a way of life for him that ruins any hope of your marriage recovering.

I would separate and then end all contact by sending him a Plan B letter cutting off absolutely all contact.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair so you can read up on Plan B?

Hi,

H and I have been married just over 3 years - no kids.

I originally exposed the A to both his family and mine, and contacted OW to tell her I knew about them and it stops there - no use having contacted OW's family, because they were very much involved in the A. OW's mother actually booked a hotel room for them once, telling them to "be careful", etc.

I have re-exposed recent A to H's parents, though he does not know this. I also contacted OW (now in San Francisco, preparing to be on a Lifetime documentary about female security officers) around November 7th (found out about recent contacts November 2, 2010). I told her to stop communicating with H - I have played nice thus far - if I discover any further communication, I will no longer play nice. She said she would stop talking to him, but also pointed out that the decision is his. True. So as long as he wants to talk to her, she will not turn him away. OW also told me she will have any part of him she can get - even if he's only half a man, even if that means he's still married and cannot commit fully. I will not go into the full conversation but stated that that is a sorry way to live.

I had been snooping on H's computer for the last 6 months (which is how I uncovered e-cards sent from OW to H and blew the secrecy out of the water this past November). I got caught about a month ago however, and H has since changed passwords.

This is a mistake. There is no point in exposing if it is going to be kept secret. That defeats the purpose.


You have a right to know every thing he does on the computer. The fact that he wants to hide tells me he has something to hide. That is outrageous that he is blocking you frmo his computer.

Go to plan b now write ur letter and post it so we can help. If your husband is changing his passwords the. He is hiding something do not waste anymore time in a false recovery

Valerie, you can't lose by separating and going into Plan B. If your H doesn't change his attitude about your marriage and fidelity, you are better off divorced. I am hoping he rises to the challenge.

I have just ordered the book - "Surviving An Affair". I had read all the other info on this website and thought I was somehow covering that - duh. Well, at least now I'll have the book in my possession.

Just spoke to my husband on the phone not too long ago in the middle of a low moment and told him that I did not know where we were headed and he said he did not know either. I asked him where he thought we were headed and he responded to which I'm now having a huge mental block and cannot remember! I do remember that his response didn't sound entirely hopeless and I told him that I cannot help but feel he'd rather be with OW as opposed to me, to which he replied, "No". I think maybe he'd said he didn't know where we were headed because he will not go to MC? Agh! I can't remember! However, I've tried over the last 6 months to express the importance of attending MC with him and he WILL NOT BUDGE on that. We attended MC at the end of 2009 after the first DD and that didn't work out so well because he was still carrying on the A.

I understand what constitutes a Plan B and that a plan for recovery is essential. And I agree in the need for him to be transparent, etc. However, in everyone's humble opinion, is MC a must? I think its good that he's been going to see his own therapist for nearly the last year now - I suppose I should credit him that. But about MC, what do you all think? I suppose I'm just trying to formulate ideas for my Plan B letter.

@Valeriean -

WS going to MC is not the problem. Him being in an A is the problem. He must give up the OW. WS is not in Recovery. In order to be in Recovery the A must be dead.

Counselors are so destructive to marriage that I wouldn't refer anyone to one except my worst enemy. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. MC have an 84% failure rate and are little more than divorce faciliators. Most are not even pro-marriage. Go read Dr Harley's article about how he learned to save marriages - it is a real eye opener about how bad marriage counselors are: How Dr Harley learned to save marriages

You have a much better chance of saving your marriage by using the materials on this website. And if that doesn't work, then pay for phone coaching with the Harleys. They can do in 2-3 sessions what other marriage counselors can never do.

But, you don't need counseling right now, you need him to end his affair and commit to saving the marriage. There is nothing to be counseled about until that happens because recovery cannot happen until she is GONE.

Amen!

One of my worst memories was when XWH announced on the way to MC that we were "through." As we began to discuss this in session (I, a crying zombie and XWH, an arms-folded pouty-person), the counselor actually said something to the effect, "maybe BS can learn to accept one more person (POSOW)who can love her children?"

She had said the week before to WS, "If you are going to move out, better do it sooner rather than later." He was gone within the week.

These memories rank up there with things my XWH said and they still hurt. Sometimes I feel like I hate that counselor!
And before anyone says anything, yes zombies cry, too.

Thank You for the feedback, everyone I suppose I will await the arrival of the book and go from there. Its really difficult to believe H when he says that he is having no contact with OW because I've been lied to before and I don't know what to believe anymore. I hope to keep everyone posted on next steps/progress.

The point here is that he will not agree to end his contact with her. THAT is the problem. Because of that it matters little if he says he hasn't been in contact for 3 weeks, or whatever. As long he doesn't see the problem, won't agree to end contact and is still hiding his computer password you have a recipe for disaster. There can be no recovery that way.

Please forgive me for seeming difficult - I guess its just that I have so many questions! I know I have to figure this out on my own but I have the tendency to need to list things out for myself before undertaking any task.

I suppose my question is how will I ever KNOW? Let's say I hand H the plan B letter with the non-negotiables (currently working on this) which will be set in place until and unless H stops all contact with OW, etc. I suppose because this happened before. I moved out last February because H would not stop contact. We worked on things, I moved back in June, and then in September OW contacted him and it started up again from there. He created an alternate email account and even though I had access to his computer, I had no idea about this account. I only discovered the recent wave of communications (back in November) because he had forgotten to delete something from his browser history.

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place with my thoughts here but I guess how do you KNOW that Plan B is working? I guess there are no guarantees, but I was wondering about everyone's perspective.

Valerian,

You will know when he PROVES it to you and becomes completely open and honest with you. It is his job now, not yours.

It really is that simple, but that does not mean it is easy.

God Bless,

JL

Hi all,

So I have been reading through Dr. Harley's book (Surviving an Affair). I just about devoured it in one evening, but I know I need to go back on some parts to re-read so that information soaks in.

I had a conversation with H last night, and it turns out just as dismally as all the others. I do not feel a deep emotional connection with him - I know he's been holding back because of his feelings for OW. I'm seeing a therapist and he is too, but he disagrees with MC because he claims that, "MC will not change the way I feel about OW". (we tried MC a year ago and that bombed because H was still having EA).

I tried to convey to H that I do not feel a deep emotional connection with him - that I do not have all of him and that I found myself being drawn towards the attentions of a friend. I wanted to be up front and honest with H about this in a "what are we going to do from here?" approach. My friend and I have known each other for nearly 15 years and he's a dear friend. He does not want to continue to see me hurt and I know he's always had feelings for me and I could feel myself growing feelings for him but I don't want to go down that path. I wonder if my goal to be honest with H backfired by telling him this because he thinks I'm trying some "scared straight" tactic.

Anyways, I told him about my needs and how I'm feeling they are not being met. His response was, "What if I can't meet those needs?". He also explained that he tried this past summer to forget OW and the feelings were always there, and always very strong. Then of course OW contacts H back in September (2010) and that was all it took for him to trip up and fall back into old patterns of communication and feelings for each other.

I know he'll always have feelings for her (still hurts to know though) to some degree, but I can see it holding him back. I can't help but feel that part of him will not let go of OW and that's why he cannot fully commit to our M. He denies it up and down but all he still says is, "I've tried and my feelings haven't changed". I cannot say that he didn't try, but I can't help but wonder if he also won't let her go.

I know that I am guilty of LB (well, we both are but we're talking about me here) because I have a difficult time not sounding judgemental. I've also begun to wonder if I can ever forgive him? I know that's on me but its almost like we cannot talk about deeper issues right now without including the A because its the reason why I'm always so upset and stressed (because I can tell he's holding back and holding out in some way for OW) and also because the A has revealed major cracks in our marriage. I want to fix them, but all I really get from H is "I've tried and my feelings haven't changed; I still have strong feelings for OW; what if I can't meet your needs?" It just sounds so hopeless???????

Without NC there is no recovery.

In a nutshell, I keep hitting the same wall of, "I tried, but my feelings for OW have not gone away". Everybody here could be right and maybe they are in communication. But I think its also possible that maybe he is telling the truth about NC with OW but that part of him just won't let go. Do I sound delusional? Does this constitute another Plan B for me?

September 17, 2009 - DD 1
November 25, 2009 - DD 2
*Did plan A like crazy (though I had not yet discovered MB)
December 9, 2009 - H asks for D
December 26-January 10, 2010 - False Recovery #1
February 11, 2010 - DD 3 (learned the full extent of EA)
*Moved out and went into plan B
February 26-April 9, 2010 - FR #2
April 29-present - FR #3? (I moved back home, thought things were going well until...)
November 2, 2010 - DD 4

Still possibly in a FR (#3) and thinking about doing another Plan B?

I play the "bull****" card on your Husband.

He doesn't WANT to change.

He doesn't WANT his feelings for her to go away, otherwise they would.

He is already making excuses WHY he can't (and won't) meet your emotional needs.

He is being self-defeating and thus sabotaging your marriage.


I can call BS on him because he sounds a LOT like I used to be. I recognize the negative language he is using.


I used to make up excuses to justify the way I was acting, and to justify my not even TRYING to accomplish things (especially things my wife wanted me to do that were important to her).

"What if..." was a mantra for me.
"I don't think I can..." was a poison for my mind.
"I can't do this because...." was feeding garbage into my soul.

Everyone...and I mean everyone...is capable of change given the right motivation.

I changed.
I stopped procrastinating.
I stopped making excuses.
I stopped being self-defeating.

Its was simple as "Just do it"...and to keep "just doing it" every day.

Eventually, I found myself thinking "Why the hell didn't I live my life this way all the time? Why did it take so many years for me to finally get it? Its so much easier to live this way, not making excuses!"

But at least I got it.

I hope your husband gets it....if not, then you won't be able to teach it to him.

The only person you can change is YOU. If he is unwilling...thats his baggage.

Just be the best person that YOU can be.

"The only real failure in life is the failure to try."

Thank you Rush

I used to be a very emotionally cold person. Through this ordeal, I have really grown and changed both spiritually and emotionally. So much so that I can now see how emotionally closed off my H is. When I ask him what we can do next for instance, he shrugs and says, "I dunno". Its things like this that I used to do because I did not want to DEAL with the issue at hand. I just wanted to ignore it and hoped what ever it was would just go away. I realize now that this is not healthy, and issues must be dealt with because they can and will just fester.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with my husband because it sounds like he does not want to change the way he feels, and I cannot live my life like this - I've tried. I feel like I'm in the movie "Groundhog Day". The same cycle of events just keeps re-occurring. I know I'm partly to blame here because I keep falling for it but I just want things to work out! I feel like something is ending that doesn't have to end. My husband said he felt the same way, but then nothing gets done about it! Its like as long as I keep my mouth shut and pretend everything is fine, then we're good. But I can't pretend everything is okay when it is not. I can sense it.