yep.. Instead of bursting out laughing like I did!

Been struggling with this myself for a long time now - mostly a and b.

On second thought, no we don't. When you are in love, the knowledge of that need is not necessary, because most women WANT to make love when they are in love.

Exaclty. Many who post here about SF problems haven't been able to discover what the problem is that prevents the SF. The issue is not having SF - the issue is discovering what prevents it which seems to be the bigger challenge for many couples. That's my observation.

*deleted*

*deleted*

Italics mine.

I went through this for years with my wife. All the feedback I ever got from her was "you're wonderful, caring, considerate, you do everything right and I am very much in love with you". But in the bedroom it was "I'm too tired, my back hurts, my neck hurts, I'm too worried about work, I'm too fat and I hate the way I look, can we take a rain check, etc, etc." For years.

This after a healthy and fulfilling sex life before marriage, and no we didn't live together. She spent the first two years of our marriage being depressed and nonfunctional... the next three years being depressed but functional. The AD's both killed her sex drive, made it difficult for her to achieve orgasm, and made the orgasms less satisfying.

I gave up initiating after the first year because it hurt too much to be rejected night after night. It was safer to let her initiate every 4-6 weeks than to face constant rejection. I have never felt so alone as when I lay in bed next to my wife after being continually rejected just a few weeks into our marriage.

What saved our marriage was JH making it crystal clear to my W that if she didn't acknowledge and start meeting my SF needs, someone else would - either in the context of an affair or post divorce. JH stressed to my wife that she needs to save some time and energy for SF.

This is where I say that a woman can be in love, but so wrapped up in her own issues that sex falls off the radar. The key for us was getting it back on the radar and keeping it there.

This was her chief question.

Any takers?

Can I answer for my H? His chief complaints are that I do not clean the house to an OCD level, and that I am vocal about my own complaints.

Is,
Why do you believe they hold out - what are the reasons?

Gg

C,
It does seem the number one complaint from men at this site is lack of SF. Gosh I can't think of another complaint (other than all the A stuff).

G

Refusing to meet a spouses needs in marriage IS CRUEL. And any loving spouse, whether it be a man or a woman should do everything in their power to resolve the problem so they can effectively meet their spouses needs.

BB, who is JH? Dr Chalmers?

I wanted to add that this is EXACTLY what happened in my last marriage. My XH found someone to meet that need. We are now divorced.

But that is the effect when you refuse to meet your spouse's needs. You might have all manner of excuses [and blaming one's childhood tends to be a favorite with women] and reasons, but the effect is the same.. If the person is not actively seeking to overcome their aversion it most certainly is cruel.

To make a spouse suffer without trying to resolve the problem is cruel, no matter how you look at it.

If you are too messed up to meet your spouses needs in marriage, then you shouldn't get married in the first place.

SW,

AT the risk of starting something I don't really want to be involved with and because I am substantially older than virtually all of you I thought I would way in with the following observations.

1. When I grew up good girls did not LIKE sex.

2. When I grew up women often taught their daughters that to control their H's, control the sex.

3. When I grew older (yes the 60's Mel) women were taught that men were sexist pigs and all they wanted was sex.

4. Then women were taught they didn't have to do anything they didn't want to do, and questioning why they didn't wasn't encouraged.

5. Years later (1990's -2000's), papers were published that pointed out that men think about sex about every 10 seconds or so. Don't know if that is true, but as a young man I can say it was very very often.

6. Came to MB and found something I KNEW was true all of my life but could not have articulated it, but Dr. Harley did. SF is an EMOTIONAL NEED as much if not more than a physical NEED.

7. Other than the NEED for an attractive spouse, I believe the SF being an emotional need is probably the most debated and most hotly debated need on this site.

8. If reading this site does nothing else, it dispells the myth that men are simple and that they have no emotional depth. They just often prefer to protect themselves as they don't feel others (their W's will).

There is a lot more to say, but to answer SW's question I think that one or more of my bullets apply to alot of women, more than just a few. I would like to think the "younger generation" say those in the 20's are more "enlightened" than my generation was/is, but I am not so sure.

I think if I were to pick one, it is the failure of women to see SF as an emotional need and one that really binds men to women emotionally. AFter all, all other needs can be met by others, but SF cannot in a true marriage.

Just thoughts.

JL

AGree so much with this! It does seem this younger generation has more common sense when it comes to marriage. I hope it does. My generation was raised by the 60's radicals but we didn't necessarily raise our kids like our hippie parents with inane radical feminist prejudice against men. These younger women seem to LIKE and respect men, which I think is a very good thing.

The most troubling remnant trait I see from the radical feminists is this victim mentality, but I suppose that is a subject for another thread.

I think JL's post pretty much summed it up. I felt like a deviant because I was unsatisfied. I was unsatisfied because FWW viewed my desire to be with her as just sex, and thus continued to deny me.

Of course, admiration was something else missing as well.

I think the "men always think about sex" thing was ingrained deep enough on both sides that it a) allowed me to feel like some sort of dirty freak, and b) allowed her to dismiss my desire as such, rather than a need.

Sex is a hot-button topic because of all the socialized destruction of the topic. Not just the aforementioned destruction reigned down by feminist movements, but also those reigned down by uptight religious sects.

Dr. Harley isn't alone on the issue of sex being an emotional need, even Maslow's hierarchy of needs lists sexual intimacy as a separate need from the act itself. Too often people confuse the two or try to have one without the other... being basic humans; complicating everything in life with righteous indignation to the simplicity of life and human interaction.

I've noticed that I see a lot of 'tit for tat'. The husband isn't helping with domestic stuff or doesn't talk to the wife like she'd like, works too much, etc. So the wife gets resentful and she begins to feel less enthusiastic about being intimate with her husband because her feelings are hurt.

The husband doesn't 'hear' the wife's complaints.
Or she doesn't complain and let's it build up.

...either way, resentment builds till you're upset about being around this person.

And then the husband gets upset, starts getting snippy, etc. And then we have this ever evolving situation and each feels that the other is the cause of the problems--"if they'd just...". And, fo course, you get a standstill where neither are willing to go first.

I will say that that I'd have to be realllllly upset at my wife to not want to have sex. Sex feels good.

I would definitely agree that the emotional intimacy that occurs with the physical intimacy is outstanding. But I could still have sex with her because I know the physical release will always feel good. And, well, her skin is soft, and she smells good, and�

When I�ve spoken with The Beautiful One about this on occasion, she agrees that sex feels good. By depriving your spouse, you�re depriving yourself also. She also remembers that when we were fighting and on the verge of considering separating, she was still wanting to have sex because it felt good. She also mentioned that at times that is the only reason why she stuck around�the sex is good and was afraid she wouldn�t find someone as good. And I�m thankful for that. I guess if I wasn�t good, we might not be married now. Not that a spouse should with hold sex but sometimes I wonder if one of the spouses might need to just double check to make sure things are up to par�hygiene prior to crawling into bed, not �pawing� or groping the spouse like a teenager, have you �let yourself go�, and do you make making love/having sex enjoyable to the other spouse (the first one to finish does not win in this situation  ).

I do remember that our sex frequency dropped quite a bit when her bipolar got worse and before she got stabilized on her medication. Of course, when dealing with an emotional disorder, that changes things a bit.

Yes I did refuse to do certain things. Remember I was 'competing' (unknowingly) with his porn habit. He was a freak. One of the first things MelodyLane said to me on this board was that she felt he could be a sociopath. He hit me during sex, hurt me, (and I later found out he was bragging to co-workers about it), and once tried to choke me.

In hindsite I wish I had divorced him even before I found out about the cheating. However, you missed my point of saying I didn't deny him CWMI...you trotted out a memory of certain acts I didn't do, but I was far from a cold fish and I continued to have sex with him even though the relationship was horrible. My point is not to tsk tsk anyone but to express disbelief that women with GOOD husbands are denying their husbands sex consistantly over a period of years and even decades.

And yes your dh might complain about something other than sex, but then he isn't here on this board.

Hi Mel,

He says as he laboriously climbs up on his soapbox.

You said
I think this is true, but what I see is more of the "marriage is a piece of paper" thinking and really not different from going together. Heck, they have no problem having children AND THEN deciding to get married. But, to avoid not going to far astray from SW's earlier question. I worry that sex is fine, lots of sex is better, but the concept of emotional, deep emotional commitment is not as strongly aspoused today, and thus the concept that SF is an emotional need is glossed over by the "hey we are having sex so why worry about the emotional aspect of it".

My concern is not only do women not get that SF is an emotional need, but many guys are not getting it either, which makes all of this very difficult when marriage occurs and life's trials and tribulations show up.

Oh Boy!!!!! Let's do this on another thread. You have touched on something that drives me crazy. I do think it dates back to the 60's and radical feminism, but it also comes from the whole permissive atmosphere of the time.

So while I have hope that this younger generation is more open and forthcoming about SF, I do worry that they fail to see the emotional aspects of it, because marriage itself is often not viewed as "becoming one" with the spouse. Hence emotional bonding of any sort is not appreciated. It just seems "fine" so let's do it.

JL