Let me put this another way, Live. Your H is the equivalent of a falling down drunk right now. He is being allowed to drive the family car with you all in it. He is setting the agenda, framing reality. WITHOUT CHALLENGE.

And what happens when a drunk driver drives? Now, I was a great drunk driver myself, but most drunks are horrible drivers that end up in wrecks.

That is where your family is headed if you don't get a hold of the wheel and drive your family safely home.

Your H should not be allowed to drive a dog cart right now. He should not be allowed to tell your children that wrong is right and down is up. He should not be allowed to tell them you and the OWH are the bad guys when he is the bad guy. There is a good reason the OWH has a GPS on his car and that is because your H is DANGEROUS TO HIM.

There is nothing wrong with spying on your husband. There is nothing wrong with telling your H that the filthy ho is moving in 2 weeks. There is something wrong with committing adultery and then acting like a spoiled brat when faced with the consequences of your dastardly deeds.

But right is wrong and wrong is right in your house.

Take the wheel back, Live. Stop the madness and most of all, PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN FROM THE DRUNK DRIVER.

Set them down and tell them their father is acting like a 2 year old and that the OWH has every right to spy on him. Tell them you spy on him too because he is a dangerous man right now.

In God we trust.
All others pay cash ....

UGGGGHHH, I see your points. I know that I am not wrong in what I have done to validate that he is not still talking or seeing her.

I know that the OWH has the right to do the same to his spouse. I don't like that he is doing it to my H without my knowledge. What he does to his own WW is his business...I have not done or said anything to the OW. Right now my WH sees me and the OWH as in cahoots with each other and I don't really want that...I want all connections with that family to terminated as soon as they move.

My purpose was not to lie to them, we do need time away for him to get his head on straight and me to get some stability. I just wanted to keep the children out of the details and not upset them further. Because my WH was still very angry from yesterday and this morning's talks, the conversation became too detailed for my taste in front of the kids. I should have just ended it and moved on instead of flaming the fires.

I will go back to them both and make sure they understand that I wanted him to leave my bedroom because I do not agree that putting the A in "hole" and covering it up will make any positive changes in our marriage. And, that his not trusting me now because I have used validatation methods to make sure he is being honest and trustworthy is not a bad or untrustworthy trait.

WH has to work with me and meet my needs period. I have spent too much time in the past 4 months beating my head against a wall and only feeling like crap as a result. A big part of his problem is that although he admits that what he did was wrong and has caused all of this mess we are in, he still does not believe that he needs any help himself. He's "just fine" he says. I beg to differ.

With that stoney attitude, I will not make futher efforts to save our marriage. I guess it is better for the kids to know now than stringing them along for the ride. His complete unwillingness to seek counseling together or separate is a barrier we cannot get through.

Oh, yes, you DO. You want your WH to understand that there is scrutiny coming from your side of the fence as well as OW's side. He would love to know that OWH is out of the loop. It is your job to make sure that he knows that you and OWH are on the same team in killing this A.

Wit
I agree, if he refuses to make any efforts to save the M then you should make plans to go into plan B or plan D.
blessing

Live, I completely agree with Melody and Peachy. I don't know why you're allowing WH to dump the responsibility on you for HIS actions, but that's what he's doing.

You have got to stand up to him and NEVER let him do this again - not to you and not to the kids. As the other posters said, you are sending an extremely confusing message to your children about truth and responsibility. WH is in trouble because of HIS actions, not from anything you did trying to defend yourself from those same selfish rotten actions.

If you stand up to him, he will be real, real angry. He may leave. Fine. Let him. But that, too, will be HIS choice. His refusal to clean up his own mess, and demanding that you do it for him so he doesn't have to get his hands dirty, is what put him where he is today.

Here is the "Boundaries" post from an older MB thread, in case you have not seen it. You desperately need to put up a boundary around WH's blameshifting and gaslighting.

*****
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.

I know I shouldn't see that family as a whole as enemies, but I kind of do. My WH hates the thought of us talking and that's his problem. I have to be strong enough mentally to not let him turn this into my problem.

This is my history unfotunately...I need to "grow some" (as they say) and stand up to him. I am not wrong in anything I have done.

They are back home now...I will talk with both kids to make sure they understand and study the info on boundries.

I have to take control of this situation. I will read more tonight and try to get my arms around what I need to do.

Thanks all for the advice, I will go back and read through it again until it sinks in.

Your WH is selfishly interested in not recognizing the damage he has done. He gets NO SAY in this. YOU are driving the bus. It's all about YOU now, Live. Not him.

ITA with telling the kids the whole truth. Never varnish deception. That's a bad lesson to teach them.

You are carrying water for a wayward and are as foggy as he is. The OWH is not the enemy here, your husband is. The OWH has every right to put a GPS on your H's car and he should not be telling you.

You are messed up to think that the OWH has done something wrong here. He has done nothing wrong. He has a right and a responsibility to protect himself and his children from your husband.

You SHOULD BE in cahoots with the OWH if you want to protect yourself. The fact that you believe that there is something WRONG with being in "cahoots" with the OWH tells me you have been brainwashed by a wayward.

You don't recognize the true enemy here.

REALITY CHECK!! REALITY CHECK!! REALITY CHECK!! REALITY CHECK!!

The enemy is your husband and the OW. Their victims are the OWH, you, and all your children.

Of course your wayward husband hates you talking to his other victim, becuase if you are comparing notes and working together YOUR HUSBAND CANNOT RESUME HIS AFFAIR.

The only reason your H is angry at the OWH and about the GPS is because HE WANTS TO RESUME THE AFFAIR AND IS BEING STOPPED BY THE OWH.

Your H is the enemy, not the OWH!! Wrong is not right, and right is not wrong!

This is something you posted the 21st. I am posting it again, because I think it is important to show you how your husband operates.



Your husband was fishing as well as gaslighting. The two of you are supposed to be working on trust... him proving himself trustworthy. You have nothing to prove in this department.

Has he shown you the device he found? Unless you have seen it, I wouldn't believe it exists. How would the OWH or a PI be able to access the inside of his locked car? Does it make sense that someone who was savvy enough to get into the car would then be careless enough to place the device in a manner that would ensure its immediate discovery?


Your husband was fishing and gaslighting. He is trying to convince you that your involvement with the OWH is as nasty and destructive as his involvement with the OW. He and the OW are not the victims here.




While the OWH would be justified in keeping tabs on your husband and would be a logical choice for doing it if you didn't, I don't think he is behind this. I think your husband lied. Does it make sense that the OWH would be able to access your husband's office undetected late at night or early in the morning? Does it seem a little coincidental that this "breech" came to light right after an argument about you and the OWH plotting secretly behind WH's back? Have you ever heard of PI's being above the law? Sure, in movies, but real PIs go to jail for breaking and entering. That is why they follow people with a camera, use plates and addresses to get public info, and dig through trash cans sitting outside.

Through his fishing, which he does by putting you on the defensive, your husband learned you have a GPS device that could be used on his car. You are not in touch with OWH but will tell him if you are, so he will have a heads up if the two of you start comparing notes again. There is a device in his office that you haven't yet accessed and he needs to find.



This is the result of gaslighting. You are now doubting your own instincts and labeling yourself unstable. For the record, I believe your instincts were correct. His withdrawal was about contact with her and had nothing to do with you, the OWH or sleuthing.

Your husband is a liar, a cheater, and a gaslighter. You should check up on him and verify everything that comes out of his mouth. You need make no apologies for it. He had the affair. He broke the trust. There is nothing wrong with you protecting yourself. What he is doing is cruel, manipulative, and abusive.