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Again, Autumn, read the entire link.

So here's a ? that I have since I am in plan B... (not trying to t/j sorry). I am the BS and for years I tried to tell WH how to meet my needs. He took it as nagging and never attempted to meet my needs. He threw that back at me saying that I was never happy in our marriage and I stopped meeting his needs (sorry, but a family member having life threatening surgery is of outmost importance and he had to take a bit of a backseat and help out more around the house so I could assist in f-m's recovery). I myself was extremely depressed and then he just went and hooked up with his b-fs wife. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out and meet his needs all of these years.... however, I feel mine were majorly neglected. It left me angry and resentful much of the time b/c i was exhausted to take care of everyone else and no one took care of me. Now, he is with OW and doing all the things for her that I was saying for years were my needs. What do you do about that?

I was managing my account and telling my customer he was withdrawing more than depositing and yet I was constantly trying to deposit into his. Do I give up on trying to bring him home or do I trudge on and hope it works? I am pretty stuck...

Pep~

I am going to print out everything you wrote. Especially the examples you provided on how to word my grievances. I have tried to tell him some things in the past, but it's never really been in a situation of a let's sit down and have a heart to heart. It's usually when we're both at the point of anger, and I'm sure you can imagine how that goes.

However, on the rare occasion we do sit down to discuss things, it NEVER goes well. I don't know if there are two other people on the face of the earth who speak and hear like such polar opposites as we do. I swear to God, it REALLY is like we speak two different foreign languages. It has gotten worse with time, not better, and you'd think that wouldn't be so.

Also, he told me years ago,(pre-A), NEVER to tell him again that I don't love him, that it's just downright mean, and he doesn't want to hear about it.... to either find away to love him, or not but keep it to myself. So, I don't tell him I don't love him, but I never say I love you either. I figure, if he doesn't want me telling him I don't love him, he sure wouldn't abide hearing the rest of my list. However, if I state things the way you suggested, Pep... there's a real chance he might just listen. The way I've approached things in the past, he interrupts me, and starts speaking loudly over me, and going straight to saying I'm an ugly b*tch for thinking the way I do. Then I say something like I'd rather be ugly than fat. Ugh. It's all just a very exhausting vicious cycle.

You really think you can fall in love with someone you don't even want to fall in love with? I can't picture it at all, but I hope it's true. If he were a stranger passing me on the street- just seeing him and hearing him, I'd have no desire to get to know him. If I have to live in a miserable marriage the rest of my life, I will be sad about it, but I CAN do it, because it's the right thing to do, and if I've done it this long, then surely I can do it another 20-30 years. It just would really suck for both of us if we have this same marriage our entire lives.

Also, are there really that many happily married couples out there? I know maybe 4 couples in my circle who I consider truly happy. I am so skeptical and jaded. I have a very low opinion of marriage right now. To the point of asking God why He created it. I know. Not good, not good at all. I need lots of help, don't I?

For the others that asked a question or two, I need to go back and look at them again. I will get back to you.

Thanks Pep.....

Should I tell him in advance I'd like to have a heart to heart with him, agree to a set time, and ask him to prepare a list of his issues with me? I'm thinking that's the best way to do it, otherwise no matter how nicely I word things, per your suggestions, Pep... he could feel ambushed and not prepared himself, right?

Also, how do I respond to his grievances, especially if he doesn't word them very diplomatically-- since he isn't receiving your advice?

Why God created marriage?

Interesting question. Answer: God has a sense of humor.

Or perhaps nothing worth having is ever easy.

Or perhaps because we NEED it so bad, which is why it hurts so much when we don't (love I mean, devotion, caring, etc all part of marriage.)

AD,

You are down, your H is down, and I suspect your H knows you don't love him. Perhaps of all of things you tell him don't tell him that but tell him how everything else affects you.

But, I will tell you this, what you feel is NOT what you should be doing. Love is an action and neither of you are loving the other. You might ask him why he doesn't love you as you need?

Take Pep's advice and see how it goes. If you are expecting your H to fall on his knees blinded by the insight, forget it. Hopefully you will plant a few seeds within his mind and they will grow.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL~

No, I've not always felt this way-- never this low, not even pre-A. Though, I am not exaggerating when I say we've only strung together handfuls of months of happiness at a time, in our 27 years. The happiest of months being post-A, during my pregnancy, for crying out loud! I look back on that time, trying to analyze what we did right-- I was so grateful to him, and I wouldn't have dreamt of saying a cross word, we talked a lot- calmly, we spent a lot of time together, had lots of SF, and basically hung on to each other for dear life. We were both very scared for varying reasons, and I think we went into some sort of protection mode for our marriage and family.

I just never really felt comfortable opening up about the very bad times here on MB because I fall into that category of the worst of the worst WW offenders, having an OC, and I figured I'd just get the response of "buck up girlie, what more can you expect from your marriage?" Also, I hate being an epic disappointment to all that took a lot of time to help me down the recovery path.

We did have a family dynamic change, that hit us hard financially, and that is definitely an added stressor.

Also, we rarely slept together for the last 5 or so years, but the last two years, as com started moving out-- not at all. It makes for a very peaceful night's sleep for me, because he can't sleep without the tv on, and I can't sleep with it on, and he snores like a freight train, but I know this is probably the biggest reason we are nothing but roommates. Which I suppose would be ok, IF we were roommates that got along.

So there's some more of the ugly truth....

I have. He said, "There's the door, get out now. You get nothing."

First order of business is to get you and him back into the marital bed. If you you have to get him to a doctor for a sleep study, DO IT! It is possible he has sleep apnea which is why he snores. If he needs noise, white noise might be a compromise for the two of you. Sleeping apart was the beginning of the deterioration of my M both prior to any A's. He could not sleep with DD's newborn noise and I couldn't fathom having to get up every night to nurse. So DD was a co-sleeper and hubby slept on the couch. I can see looking back the path that led us to.

Same here! I snore badly at times of high stress and I moved out of the marital bed 5 yrs ago - I'm back in now but only part time 3-4 nights a week.
It's better than nothing especially since my major EN is Physical Touch and I get that all night long when I'm in there - minds out of gutter please!!!!

Still working on getting snoring and work stress levels under control.

Interesting about the white noise generator. I'll have to try that! During summer months my wife likes a fan on and it sort of drowned my snores out.

I am trying to understand here. You mean AD had OC with AP and now she feels nothing for BH and has not for a long time!? What can she do?
She realizes after 27 years BH is not for her...I really do not see how she can get support here? She is a WW who does not know how to fall back in love with BH...well she either does MB or asks for a D.
It is not fair to keep tormenting BH, just not fair.
Please get out of your M and leave your BH free to seek another life with a better partner and take you OC with you....why live a life of lies and force you BH to it when he already had to go thru so much with the A and OC and all the rest which is soo painful to end up in a loveless M with someone who, obviously is not honest...
sorry but I had to say this...
blessing

Hi AD,

Look at what you said Please look at what you said. This isn't "rocket science" AD. Look at what you two did. You met each others needs, you valued one another, and yes you PROTECTED one another.

How have you been in protecting your H? How has he been in protecting you? Are you seeing something here?

Also how much of the outside stressers (sp) are still present.
Have all of your COM left the home yet?

You also said This is marriage builders AD, not BS builders. Folks will help you and some won't. Clearly Pep, I and others are more than willing to help.

You want to know why? For us to help your H, we need to help you. For us to help you, we need to offer you strategies for helping your H. Recovery REQUIRES that both parties become happy, satisfied, and fulfilled in their marriage. Neither of you are. But, the actions that lead to the state of your marriage are no secret and you both have been doing everything you can to destroy the connection between you two. Your (you and your H) actions are classic for arriving at the state you two are in.

If I recall all of those years ago, he wasn't much for addressing the affair was he? He felt the baby would be the glue that "gave you two a second chance". Dr. Phil states this as asking a baby to fix two adults. Your first question to your H should be "Are you happy?" If he responds like most of us guys do "I don't know are you happy?" Your answer should be "no I am not and one of the reasons I am not happy is because you are not happy. Is that why you are not happy, because I am not happy?"

Open the door that way AD. You must open the door. You would not be posting here if deep down you really do want this marriage to work, but for it to work, your life needs to look better to you and to your H.

If he were here I would have a lot to say to him as well. He did a very strong thing in accepting your child by the OM into his life, but...that was not enough if he is going to allow the marriage to die and leave the poor child from a broken home. And let's not even include your COM because they will be deeply hurt although they are older.

You made a terrible mistake those years ago. However, it was a point in time, the real issue is what are you and your H doing to make the rest of the time something to relish and enjoy.

"buck up girlie" (I'm sorry I could not resist) and start to dig into this and see if you/us and hopefully one of the Harley's can get you strategies to get your H to open up, release the resentment he seems to be carrying, and to get you reengaged in this marriage.

AD, I tell my Post-docs and graduate students I have three fundamental beliefs in life.

1. There are no experts in unsolved problems.
2. Life is a team sport
3. Credit is not a conserved quantity, give it freely.

Your life is a team sport and your H should be on your team. He is not, and neither are you on his. Time to change that "girlie" Ok I couldn't resist again. You do realize that when I see you posting I am going to start to think of you as "girlie" rather than AD?

Hang in there AD, I really think there is hope, but some changing and shifting needs to be done.

God Bless,

JL

aetna~

You don't have to say you're sorry for saying it. You're mostly right.

A couple of things though... I am not making my husband hold my secret. It is he who from day one has refused and continues to refuse to tell ANYONE about OC, including OC. He says we will never tell anyone, especially not OC, because he thinks it will hurt OC too much, and blow everyone else's lives out of the water as well. I am in complete disagreement with him on this, but I comply, because he's the injured party, not me.

Secondly, I didn't just now discover at 27 years that I'm unhappy. Neither of us have been happy for the lion's share of our marriage. He has said he's pretty sure he can find a woman who would love and cherish him, but like me... is trying to stay, even in a miserable marriage, because we've both grown up believing it's the right thing to do.

Thirdly, in the event of a divorce, he would fight for every bit of custody of OC he could get. He wants OC more than he wants me. I would only hurt my husband more if I took OC from him- I wouldn't try to do it, and I can't legally anyway, because my husband is the rightful, legal father.

Autumn, I don't believe that either you or your husband really believes that you should get a D. I think that your actions, by both being there, show much more than your words.

And the reason that you two can't talk about this is because you have had this same argument again and again. He doesn't let you finish saying what you want to say because he believes he already knows what you are going to say. You have been together for a very long time and you know each other better than anyone else. That is part of the problem, and the solution.

As far as us helping you, some people won't know what to say and some people won't have the knowledge to help, but there are others, myself included, whom are more than willing to help out a FWS. This IS about marriage building after all.

I can read the resentment in your posts about not telling anyone the truth about OC and I can understand why. You are trying to live your life more honestly and you have been lying for so long. Resentment is going to kill this marriage and by you being here, it means that is NOT what you want.

Stick around, take the advice and get your butt in gear. If you can't call the Harleys right away, why don't you get on the radio show and ask for their help.

JL~ Not addressing the A is an understatement. He wanted it completely swept under the rug, never to be mentioned again. Said it's the only way he can get over it. Doesn't even want to know om's name, or location. Doesn't want any details at all- so to this day, he doesn't even know if it was a ONS or of any length. He only knows om was single. Though, yes... he does throw the A at me in arguments, reminding me that I'm the one that did the wrong in our marriage, so I have no room for complaint. I'm guessing that's fairly typical though? Those kind of statements actually aren't all that hurtful. What does bother me, is when he does this percentage game, depending on how badly things are going-- our bad marriage goes anywhere from being 70% to 90% my fault. On the days he says 90% my fault, I stand up for myself and say I'll take the 70%, but not the 90%. That's how ridiculous we are.

I will try the things you've suggested. I think Hell would freeze over before he'd ever post here, but I could ask when we have a sit down conversation and I reveal the seriousness of where I'm at.

I have always thought ho we'd make a bit of a power couple and great things could have stemmed from our marriage, IF only we had a good marriage where we acted as a team, because as individuals we are both well regarded and popular people with a lot going for us. Together though-- we are absolutely flat and bring no good to those around us, other than giving our kids an intact home.

AD,

You said Ok, no one has ever accused me of being short on words.

When he throws the A in your face, you calmly and me deadly calm, look in the eye and ask, "so do you want me to leave and talk OC with me?" "Is your inability to deal with this after all of these years so bad, that you simply want me to leave, is that why you are throwing the A at me?" "Is it the fact that you have do nothing to address the A, or its causes, the reason you want me to leave and take OC, because if you keep throwing it in my face, you are forcing me to leave, I will not stand here and take that from you anymore." "Your call H."

Finally you have messed up big time. Your marriage is in bad shape because neither of you have given 100% and you can only take credit for 50% of that. He has the other 50%. If you are talking about the A which is NOT why the marriage is in bad shape that you get 100%. Ask him to figure out which he is talking about. The marriage is a mess because of his behavior and yours 50/50.

Time for some radical honesty AD. Time for him to put up or shut up. Don't corner him, but make sure he holds his share of the issues, which is why I am suggesting that you pin him when he complains. You have plenty of reason to complain, he reluctance to address the A means he has short circuited his reason to complain.

Speak up AD.

God Bless,

JL

Scotland,

Thank you. I probably wouldn't make it through a conversation with Dr. Harley on the radio, without crying, and I'm also afraid someone would recognize my voice, thus finding out.

You are right. I hate the lying. You'd think I wouldn't, because it protects me, but it's a terrible burden to carry, and it's getting heavier, not lighter as the years go by. Also, I know the truth always has a way of coming out, and I think the longer we put it off, the worse the outcome will be, not to mention the chance it will come out in some way not under our control.

My family will be shocked, but fine in the end. His family will be utterly devastated, and hate me. I can handle being ostracized, but if they did the same to OC... OC wouldn't understand AT ALL. They're beloved family to OC. I think this is also why husband, even if he's ever considered changing his mind about revealing it, probably thinks we're way too far down this path now, and the fallout would be too much for OC and COM, who also don't know. Still though... even though NOW is not nearly as good as BEFORE, it's better than LATER.

I agree with Pep though, we shouldn't do anything with this topic, until our relationship is resolved.

JL~

I do take 100% of the blame for the A, and he knows it. I say it every time he talks about percentages. The 70%-90% he quotes, is my overall share of the blame in the marriage as whole.

We will talk, I promise.

I asked earlier... should I set up an appointment with him to talk, so he can compile a list of complaints too, and ask that we do it calmly, not interrupting each other? I shouldn't just out of the blue sit him down, with only me prepared to present my complaints, right?

Hey AD,

You can email Mrs. Harley and she will read your email on the air for Dr. H to answer. She did that for me.

AD,

You asked Sure, you could do that or you can just sit him down and say "I need to talk." Unless the ever fearsome "Dear WE need to talk." is what you are going for.

But, here is a thought for you. Take a look at your list of complaints, the one you posted here. And turn it inside out.

Make your "complaints" a wish list for good things.

I have a few examples in my head, let see if they make sense to you.

Let's say he snores and it really hurts your sleep and his. Let's say he has or may have sleep apnea (sp?).

Instead of saying "**** your snoring is keeping me awake and I cannot stand to sleep with you any longer."

Take a different approach: "**** I am really worried about your health. You snore and probably have sleep apnea and that is really bad for your health. It hurts your sleep, it is associated with other deceases such as diabetes (look it up), and it makes your thinking not very clear. I would really appreciate if you would go to the Dr. and get it checked. We both could use a good night sleep and you need to be in good health to be the father you want to be with OC."

You are not lying to him, you are not really even shading the truth. If he is not getting sleep he will NOT be a person that is much fun. If he is not getting sleep and he is keeping you awake he will NOT be a person you are attracted to. And on it goes.

Take you list and reverse it so that you are telling him what you want to accomplish, but in a positive way rather than a negative way.

AD, I may be very wrong here, but no one wants to be disliked, but a lot of people are very defensive. Your H knows he has failed you, he compensates by being really good to OC. But, deep down he KNOWS he failed. He is afraid to articulate it because he already thinks of himself as weak for taking you back. Yet, the other part of him knows it was the right thing to do.

Look inside of you. You feel you failed don't you? Look how it wrings you insides and how you fear even speaking to the man you are married to and have/are rearing children with. You fear, and it makes you defensive, it eats at you.

My bet is that your H is in the same boat, but he manifests it by being really defensive, and sort of macho. Am I getting warm AD?

He is not going to admit his failures any more than you feel you have the right to speak up.

You made the comment along the lines that woman should love a man that is her hero. You have no idea how that touched me. Want to bet it would touch him. It is what you want isn't it AD, to love him, to be loved and to allow him to be your hero.

I may be way off AD, but somehow I think I am not.

Please think about this and then let's talk. I won't be too active this weekend or even Monday, lots of work to do. But, keep these things in mind.

God Bless,

JL