So...can I assume this thread has touched a nerve, americajin?

AJ-

You are closer to today's reality than you know, at least here in beknighted NY.

(Ignore for a moment the ugly nature of the example, and concentrate on the arrogance of the concept, okay?)

If I were to DRAW you a picture of an imaginary not-yet-of-age female engaging in sexual activity, and sent it to you electronically, you would have committed a felony by receiving and storing it. Yes, the legislative nannies of NY have decided that child-porn is an offense against the under-age subject of any sexual depiction - even if the subject is entirely fictional!

Our brains, considering the image, would be adjudged to have committed an offense.....against a CARTOON! Can you get your mind around THAT one?

(And my childhood fantasies about "Betty Boop"? On advice of counsel, I respectfully refuse to answer.......)

Wow, a woman who admits to this. For a lot of men, the wife's pregnancy is like 9 months of PMS. And before everyone jumps my butt about this, understand that guys DO understand that for some women, their moods or emotions run wild every month for a few days. Most learn what to say or do, or not say and do, to avoid conflict. But for some men, it is simply almost a week of verbal abuse that goes on unabated, and that is laughed off or minimized by the wife and other women. Doesn't make it right, especially year after year. Do women ever consider that men have hormones too? That an abundance of testosterone kicks the old sex drive into 5th gear? No excuse, men are just animals. We are supposed to accept that women's hormones drive their behavior at times but not accept the same for men?

I've got to assume you are drawing on experience with this, but your post puzzles me, as in "what crowd are you running with?"

I haven't met a woman yet who won't admit that pregnancy hormones are crazy, whacky things.

I also don't know any women who are shrieking banshees spouting verbal abuse for a solid week on their hapless husband.

I also don't know any women who disagree that there is an abundance of testosterone in men. Hey, it's what makes them men!

The main complaint I hear from women that I know is that their H doesn't understand what they need in the way of affection. Of course, I point those women to MB.

**edit**

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders. If you can help in that regard, please feel free to post. If not, then refrain from posting. I see this thread veering off into personal agendas and that is not going to be allowed!

Thanks for your cooperation.

I do. I knew a guy once with a wife who would also get physical and he was stupid enough to call the police. The only thing that saved his butt when he got arrested is that his friends had seen her do this more than once. Yes, in front of witnesses. We had for a long time urged him to leave her before he did see legal repercussions. At least when they got divorced they were childless. Ask the guys, MB, you haven't seen it because you aren't married to a woman and most women would not tell another that they do this. I have never had any guy ever admit that they're a child molester but I know they're out there. Although perhaps you won't find these men on Marriage Builders because they're not interested in anything more but escape.


I guess my point is that there doesn't seem to be reciprocity. I have seen women who downplay their behavior when they have their period or are pregnant and condemn men for having an active libido due to male hormones and wanting to have frequent sex.

For men who cheat during their wife's pregnancy, is it simply a matter of having no sex, or is it more how they are treated by their wife?

I won't say more because I know I'm guilty of a threadjack here and was censured for such. But I will put an email address in my signature line if folks would like to debate the finer points with me.

Let's get back on topic and keep your posts helpful to the poster!!

"I once knew a guy..." is anecdotal and is irrelevant to this poster.

If you would like to start a new thread to discuss a new topic, please do so.

Let's not disrupt this poster's thread again.

Still do. What has changed?


Undervalued by who? Has your husband said anything like this to you or is this what you feel about yourself?


Perhaps you shouldn�t ask questions you don�t really want to hear the answer to. I will say though that a lot of people fantasize, Jamie, and would never dream (pardon the pun) about acting upon it.


Perhaps this is the real problem? The �I feel undervalued� thing you�ve mentioned twice? Apparently a pretty important issue if you feel that you have to leave your husband to get a job again. And pretty hard to work on a marriage is you take the kids and leave. Perhaps we should talk about your feelings of self-worth or being devalued, which I think is the real problem.

Hopefully by looking at this from a different angle, and leaving my feelings about masturbation aside, I can engender a conversation more in line with MB principles.

She has described the real problem, which is that her husband is fantasizing about the babysitter. That is a real threat to her marriage that should be addressed and REMOVED. That is what Dr Harley would recommend.

When a spouse is attracted to a certain member of the opposite sex, the solution is to remove that member of the opposite sex, not to navel gaze about feelings of self worth. The matter of her self worth has nothing to do with the basic issue and is a distraction from the real problem.

Really, this is not a tough problem. The babysitter is a problem and the masturbation is a problem. The solution is to knock it off.

Sorry, but I don't agree. Even if she gets another babysitter, will it stop her from feeling like she is undervalued and needs to have a job to feel like herself again? She even goes as far to say she wants to leave so she can get her job back. Sounds like that issue predated the whole "I Dream of Jeannie" thing. I'm not gonna touch the maturbation thing with a ten foot pole.

I think we are concentrating on the wrong issue. But that is just my opinion, of course.

Edited to add: I guess I'll wait until she answers my reply.

Agreed.

But her failure to reward his Radical Honesty is also a problem. The best way to entice your partner not to love bust is to refrain from love busting yourself. Withholding ENs as punishment for engaging in Radical Honesty, especially after he has apologized for his love busters, is a sure way to enter into a downward spiral. To the extent that she is not enthusiastic about meeting his EN in the way he wants it met, that should trigger POJA, not flat out rejection on her part with no offer to brainstorm solutions.

Probably, but not the only thing. This isn't the only problem, and we aren't dealing with the babysitter-fantasy H here, so telling her to slap his hand and tell him to knock it off isn't that constructive, and is likely bolstering into some LB behavior.


First half, agree. Second half; not so much. More on that later.


That's like saying treating nausea caused by stomach cancer is the cure to the disease. That isn't a fix, it only addresses a single symptom, and a single possible cause.

What else could be a cause? Well, you like to toss aside the "self-worth" mention here and go after what you find offensive - the fantasy, and the self-service. Ok.

Would someone in a satisfying relationship do this? Maybe, but not likely.

Does the external stimulus (babysitter) need to go? Yes. It's a distraction, and yes a threat, to the marriage and the underlying cause.

The whole "self-worth" statement is applicable because it is contributing to a lack of intimacy. Lack of intimacy contributes to a lack of fulfillment on her H's part.

The next guess would also be a lack of O&H on the part of both spouses, though her H definitely demonstrated a huge willingness to be open and honest, even when he knew it would be potentially harmful.

Is the babysitter a problem? Yes, but more likely a symptom of other problems which must be resolved so that similar problems do not occur in the future.

It doesn't matter why she feels undervalued. What matters is that there is a threat to her marriage that should be removed. That threat is the babysitter. That is problem #1. Problem #2 is that he not only masturbates, but has sexual fantasies about the babysitter.

The solution is to remove the threat and knock off the masturbation.

What did I miss? How did she not reward his honesty? And why should she reward his honesty in the first place? Does being honest require a reward?

Probably, but not the only thing. This isn't the only problem, and we aren't dealing with the babysitter-fantasy H here, so telling her to slap his hand and tell him to knock it off isn't that constructive, and is likely bolstering into some LB behavior.[/quote]

Nope, it is not a lovebuster to ask your spouse to stop doing things that upset you - she is supposed to do that. And yes we are dealing with a babysitter fantasy here. That is part of the problem.


Any rational person in a healthy, satisifying marriage will recognize a real threat and take steps to eliminate it. In her case, the threat to the marriage is a teenage babysitter in her home whom her H has sexual fantasies about. The solution is to remove that very real threat.

If my H were sexually attracted to my cleaning lady, I would expect him to be honest about that and we would get rid of her. Protecting the marriage means you don't take such risks. You don't hang around with people to whom you are attracted.

Folks, this is not rocket science. This is Marriage Protection 101. When there is a threat to the marriage, you don't sit around and navel gaze, you simply remove the threat.


It is not a problem, though. Her recognition that the babysitter is a threat to her marriage was a wise and shrewd recognition. The problem would have been if she DIDN'T recognize the threat.

I can't agree with this. All it would take for me to feel unsafe would be if my H were fantasizing about a clear and present danger. I don't need to feel unattractive, or lacking in self-esteem (whatever the hell that means to this topic, but I digress.)

I would need to remove that danger in order to feel safe. That's what it would take. I don't need to pamper myself, or lose 10 pounds, or have someone build up my self-esteem. I would need to rid our family of the clear and present danger.

And the only way a 'similar' problem would crop up in the future would be if I were senseless enough to hire another nubile babysitter.

Dr Harley's standard advice to those who find themselves attracted to anyone outside of marriage is to RUN FOR YOUR LIFE. Just because Jamie recognized that the babysitter is a threat to her marriage does not mean she is "insecure" or whatever psychobabble term you want to put on it, but that she is WISE and smart enough to recognize a real threat.

The fact that she recognizes a very real threat does not mean she is a nut job but that she is SMART. To say that SHE is insecure for recognizing a real threat is to say that she is "insecure" when he goes drunk driving. Which would be ridiculous.

So, her concerns is not a "symptom of deeper issues" or "low self esteem" or anything else, it comes from THE WISDOM TO RECOGNIZE A REAL THREAT.


Escaping the Jaws of Infidelity: How to Avoid an Affair


And you fellas do her a grave disservice trying to convince her otherwise.