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Take you list and reverse it so that you are telling him what you want to accomplish, but in a positive way rather than a negative way. EGG ZAK LEE You made the comment along the lines that woman should love a man that is her hero. You have no idea how that touched me. Want to bet it would touch him. It is what you want isn't it AD, to love him, to be loved and to allow him to be your hero. I believe the "hero" comment was mine. I mentioned it because I have learned how important it is for a man to know (because she tells him) that he is his woman's hero. It took my H's adultery for me to recognize that he needed to be told how/when he is my hero. Up until then, I mistakenly thought he admired my strength. He does, but my strength does not make him feel bonded with me. My admiration for him does. Just yesterday .... H was my hero again. After all these years, it still works.
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He's been home 15 hours after being gone a few weeks.
We talked a bit when he first got home- catching him up with the goings on within the family, local news, etc. Mostly he played with OC and the new toy he brought back for OC.
The 3 of us, (H, OC, me), went out to a favorite spot for dinner last night. H made the a kissing gesture to me from across the table. I didn't respond. He said, "dead fish".
On way home, I said, "We need to talk one of these days"
He laughed and said, "About what? You don't ever want to talk to me."
That was the extent of our conversation. He went to his room. I went to mine. Haven't seen him yet this morning. Our house is just big enough to keep to our separate places.
I feel paralyzed to move.
I can't see the other side of this AT ALL.
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H made the a kissing gesture to me from across the table. I didn't respond. >sigh< You might have smiled. You might have winked. You might have playfully stuck out your tongue. This is a failure on your part. What say you? I will not address his reptilian reflexive "TAKER" response. He's not here. You are. We can only begin to work with you and your attitude, which stinks.
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I can't see the other side of this AT ALL. Because you are lacking empathy for his feelings and the hurt you are currently causing your marriage.
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H made the a kissing gesture to me from across the table. I didn't respond. Picture this. Your child is making a kissing gesture to you. You fail to respond. You stare back at her. How would you expect her to respond to THAT level of uncaring and coldness? Her feeling would be hurt, right? You have hurt your husband, again. And, what did you get out of it? You got "validation" that the marriage is hopeless. Which, is what you are actually "fishing" for. (it seems)
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I am one of those people who thinks that thread titles are important and often need an answer. How do you find love for your spouse... Are you sure this is what you want? Because if it is what you want, you begin by following the MB "rules". In particular the rule about never being a source of pain for your spouse. Why would any of us hurt the one we promised to love and cherish?
Lack of empathy is at the core of the problem. I was struck with what we are all up against while watching a Star Trek episode. Spock had volunteered to be possessed by an alien presence so that it could communicate with Captain Kirk of the Starship Enterprise.
As soon as it entered Spock's body, its first reaction was, "Oh, how lonely you must all feel."
You see, in the alien world, they were all connected to each other through telepathy so that each one could feel what everyone else felt. They were all emotionally bonded to each other. But as soon as the alien possessed Spock's body, it realized that we humans are all cut off from each other emotionally. And it viewed our state as incredibly isolated and lonely.
One of the most important consequences of our emotional isolation is that we cannot feel the way we affect others. And that creates the temptation to hurt others because in doing so we don't feel the pain we cause. If we were connected emotionally to others as the aliens were, we would be far less tempted to do anything thoughtless, gaining at someone else's expense. That's because in so doing, we would be hurting ourselves as well.
And that's what I always seem to be battling when I try to encourage one spouse to avoid doing anything that would hurt the other spouse. I cannot seem to trigger empathy. Each spouse complains about how thoughtless the other spouse is, without much awareness of his or her own thoughtlessness.
Lack of empathy helps makes thoughtlessness possible. Since we don't feel what other's feel, we tend to minimize the negative effects we have on others, and consider our thoughtlessness to be benign. An angry outburst is regarded by some as a creative expression. Disrespect is viewed as helping the other spouse gain proper perspective. And a demand is nothing more than encouraging a spouse to do what he or she should have done all along. None of these is seen as one spouse gaining at the other's expense, because the spouse who is inflicting the pain does not feel the pain. But whenever one spouse is the cause of the other's unhappiness, one thing's for sure -- Love Bank withdrawals are taking place.
I call all the ways that spouses are inconsiderate of each other's feelings Love Busters because that what they do -- they destroy the love that a husband and wife have for each other. Today, you begin with an apology for hurting your husband.
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I respond to a kiss gesture from my children, because I love them, and it comes naturally to respond in kind.
Should I have faked a kiss back?
This is a guy who thinks even a smile from me MEANS EVERYTHING IS FINE AND DANDY. Meaning he would think I'm nuts if the next day I came to talk to him about issues. He'd seriously think I'm bi-polar.
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btw, I'm not mad he called me a dead fish. I'd say it's accurate and fair.
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It's been too long, girl. You seriously need to contact the coaching center and get some actual help not more forum opinions ... although, I must admit, my opinion is brilliant!  Here is some information about: Marriage Coaching I've found that the majority of couples do not need a marriage coach. They can learn to resolve their conflicts and restore love to their marriages without any outside help as long as they have a plan that works and motivation to follow the plan. I've provided you with that plan, now all you need is the motivation. But if either you or your spouse lack that motivation, don't go through the rest or your life with a loveless marriage, or worse yet, end it with divorce. Instead, get the help you need to do the right thing when you don't feel like doing it. Best advice I have read on this thread. AD, they have turned couples who HATED EACH OTHER into passionate, intimate marriages. But you have to actually USE the program in order for it to work. Talking on this forum is no replacement for a PLAN. Those who dont' have a plan after infidelity have a plan to FAIL. That has proven true in your marriage. There was no plan here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It's been too long, girl. You seriously need to contact the coaching center and get some actual help not more forum opinions ... although, I must admit, my opinion is brilliant! Here is some information about: Marriage Coaching I've found that the majority of couples do not need a marriage coach. They can learn to resolve their conflicts and restore love to their marriages without any outside help as long as they have a plan that works and motivation to follow the plan. I've provided you with that plan, now all you need is the motivation. But if either you or your spouse lack that motivation, don't go through the rest or your life with a loveless marriage, or worse yet, end it with divorce. Instead, get the help you need to do the right thing when you don't feel like doing it. Best advice I have read on this thread. AD, they have turned couples who HATED EACH OTHER into passionate, intimate marriages. But you have to actually USE the program in order for it to work. Talking on this forum is no replacement for a PLAN. Those who dont' have a plan after infidelity have a plan to FAIL. That has proven true in your marriage. There was no plan here. And after 7 years, I would say that accountability is a definite issue - as you aren't holding yourself accountable for anything, let alone following a plan or program. If you are serious, you need accountability.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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What am I not holding myself accountable for? My A?
I'll tell you what I told my H tonight... "Fine, I'm a filthy, dirty wh0re for having an A 8 years ago.... so why do you want to be married to me?" Short answer: He thinks I'll take all his money. Now, I'm guessing that's why he stayed and took on OC-- because it was cheaper than a divorce. WOW, such incentive to bend and give-- being married to the wh0re is the more economical alternative.
So, when does the WW get to stop being the ONLY EXPECTED TO BEND in order to have a good marriage? Obviously 8 years isn't long enough. How about 10, 15, 20, 50 years????
Re: Talking on this forum not being a replacement for working the MB plan-- I get that, but WTH? MB is FULL of pages, and pages, and pages of TALKING! I'm an old member, but because I'm an epic failure, and not a poster child for MB- you all are not going to talk to me???
Yes JL, I'm defensive. So, I saved you sentence.
I'm ticked too.
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Oh, and tonight's fight got me back up to the poor state of our M being 90% my fault. Yeah, it was a good one.
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I didn't see anyone say that you are an epic failure.
What I did see were some people offering you some helpful and EXCELLENT advice on how to save your marriage. If that is not what you are here to seek, then I can't help you. I won't give you a justification to leave your BH now. I also won't allow you to say, without a debate from me, that MB didn't work for you if you didn't actually USE MB. It's like saying Weight watchers didn't help me lose weight when I stopped following their plan.
BTW, if your BH really didn't want you around, you wouldn't be around. Yesterday, he didn't want you, only OC. Today, he only kept you around to save him money. Come on. Be real. What's it going to be tomorrow? The world would fall off of its axis if you got a D?
Pep pointed out a missed opportunity to fill your BHs EN. She also suggested you call the coaching center. Instead of figuring out ways to fix your marriage, you seem to be arguing your way into not saving it. What do YOU really want?
Give MrsH an email and let her ask your question on the radio show, she did it for me too.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING  Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Oh, and tonight's fight got me back up to the poor state of our M being 90% my fault. Yeah, it was a good one. And how did THAT follow MB or help save your M?
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Re: Talking on this forum not being a replacement for working the MB plan-- I get that, but WTH? MB is FULL of pages, and pages, and pages of TALKING! I'm an old member, but because I'm an epic failure, and not a poster child for MB- you all are not going to talk to me??? No one said we weren't going to talk to you, but certainly you can see that talking on a forum is no replacement for having a PLAN to fix your marriage? How is it that you have been here 8 years and have not used this program? There is a PLAN for saving marriages here, AD. A very effective plan. You just have to actually use it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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AD, So, when does the WW get to stop being the ONLY EXPECTED TO BEND in order to have a good marriage? Obviously 8 years isn't long enough. How about 10, 15, 20, 50 years???? Short answer: When decide to change things. His blaming you doesn't make it so. If you won't change and he won't change, then you don't get to ask when it will stop. AD, you need to stand up and decide that what he says is not consistent with what you know to be the truth. I am telling you the following but not advocating it. You could always file, seek child support, and get the lie out of the closet. This is really a case of you not being willing to do what it takes, to save the marriage or leave it. I am so saddened by this thread, you just have no clue how bad this makes me feel. But the truth of it is that I cannot help you do what you won't do. I cannot offer you great advice that will change everything. To make things better you have to go through a process and MB does have a process. Please give the Harleys a call. I really don't want you in this pain.  God Bless, JL
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Scotland~
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
1. I never said anyone here said I'm an epic failure. *I* said I'm an epic failure.
2. I never said MB didn't work for me. I never fully tried the principles. H hates the idea of marriage counseling, but downright scoffs at MB, and never liked me being on it. He saw me typing my above post earlier, and asked when I would stop listening to strangers on a website, and think for myself.
3. I am not changing my story from day to day, so don't say come on to me. H HAS said in some arguments that he wants and cares more for OC, than he does me. I didn't make that up.
My perception, is that right after D-day-- He DID really want to stay married to me, and willingly take on OC. I still believe he loves OC-- in fact there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.
However, when he says things like he doesn't want a divorce because he doesn't want me getting his money, it makes me wonder if he has wanted a divorce all along, but it was cheaper to keep me after the A. When I asked for a divorce 10 years ago, Pre-A, his answer was the same as it is today-- you can leave, but I won't divorce you, because you're not getting my money. Yes, he also says-- as I have-- no divorce, for the sake of the kids, and because it's not right, but he's most vocal about the money end of it. What am I supposed to think?
Finally- I don't get what you're asking in your 2nd post to me, above.
When I entitled this thread, I asked How do you find love for your spouse....... ~~~when you don't think you even want to?.,(or something like that)~~~
Logic tells me MB could easily work for people who want it to work. What I'M asking is how do I get to the point of ~wanting~ it to work??? Do people just skip over that part and fake it? I am sincerely asking. Same premise with my H's kiss gesture... I'm getting scolded for not being receptive, but to me it's like being receptive to some stranger or even an enemy. That is where I'm at.
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I'm probably the worst person on earth to offer advice here, but it seems to me that if you've decided that you don't want a divorce, which it seems neither of you want, then you only have two choices - stay married and be miserable together, or figure out how to love one another and make each other happy.
Since the first choice seems rather unpalatable, that should be pretty good incentive for figuring out how to do the second choice.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Thank you, JL. I am a hot mess. Analysis paralysis? I don't know.
I told him he can read this thread. I hope he does. Maybe it will stir him to get his side out there.
At any rate, I'm regretting posting. I hate disappointing you and others that invested a lot of time in me.
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What am I not holding myself accountable for? My A?
I'll tell you what I told my H tonight... "Fine, I'm a filthy, dirty wh0re for having an A 8 years ago.... so why do you want to be married to me?" Short answer: He thinks I'll take all his money. Now, I'm guessing that's why he stayed and took on OC-- because it was cheaper than a divorce. WOW, such incentive to bend and give-- being married to the wh0re is the more economical alternative.
So, when does the WW get to stop being the ONLY EXPECTED TO BEND in order to have a good marriage? Obviously 8 years isn't long enough. How about 10, 15, 20, 50 years????
Re: Talking on this forum not being a replacement for working the MB plan-- I get that, but WTH? MB is FULL of pages, and pages, and pages of TALKING! I'm an old member, but because I'm an epic failure, and not a poster child for MB- you all are not going to talk to me???
Yes JL, I'm defensive. So, I saved you sentence.
I'm ticked too. Accountable for; making EN deposits, avoiding LBs, meeting 20+ hours of UA time every week until improvement is seen, and 15+ hours to maintain, Radical Honesty with your spouse. Accountable for having a plan, and sticking to it. And if, at all possible, accountability for both of you.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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