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Are we really playing semantics here with the word NICE?
Good grief, I'll make sure I have my thesaurus open next time.
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Yes, he has been traveling for 25 years. As we've become more an more a global economy, he has traveled more and further distances. He travels overseas nearly once per month now for 1-2 weeks at a time. I get used to being "in charge", so it's hard to readjust each time he comes back, especially when he doesn't like how I've taken care of things.
I'm sorry, I forgot who asked me this above... but you asked something like why don't I ask my H what he wants or expects(?) I did just that last night. I had to persist in asking in fact, because the first 3 or 4 times he shouted something along the lines of, "We have been married for 27 years, and if you don't know what a good wife should be by now, I'm not telling you, don't play stupid, you KNOW what a good wife is, and what I want."
Am I wrong to need specifics? Is it immature of me to need a list of things he needs and wants? I am asking this sincerely, and with all of my defenses down. I don't mean to sound stupid, but honestly, how am I supposed to know what exactly would make him happy if he doesn't tell me? What makes one husband happy doesn't make another happy, right? I truly want to know-- is it sex 2 nights per week? Is it certain dinners certain nights per week? Is it have his parents over once per week, or once per month? Is it a clean house? Snow shoveled drive? Smiles? Dress pretty? Go fishing with him? I know the basics of what he likes, but I don't know the order of importance. I don't what he can live with and what he cannot, etc.
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Yes, he has been traveling for 25 years. As we've become more an more a global economy, he has traveled more and further distances. He travels overseas nearly once per month now for 1-2 weeks at a time. I get used to being "in charge", so it's hard to readjust each time he comes back, especially when he doesn't like how I've taken care of things. This is the problem. There is nothing more to talk about until this is resolved. Even a couple in a great marriage cannot maintain their love under these conditions because you are not meeting each others emotional needs on a daily basis. I bet you fight like hell when he comes home. When I had to travel 3 days a week for a few weeks when we were relocating, we used to fight for the first couple of days. It was so hard on our marriage that we stopped it. He started traveling with me until we were moved down here. That is where I would start if you want to turn this around. Change that and you can change your marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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AD, I don't much, but I do know this. You are a lousy mindreader. Your H is worse, if that is possible. I know I am a lousy mindreader, my W tells me.  Point, next time he pulls this on you, look him in the eye and say "read my mind". When he says you know I cannot, then say "neither can I. Start talking if you want changes." You have to be willing to take him on, if you want to learn how to change and if he wants to change. Frankly he seems very confident that you will not divorce him and leave with the OC and other children. Why is that? God Bless, JL
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Melody~ Really, you think his traveling less would help that much? It is the only life we know. When the economy first tanked at the end of '08, his company stopped most overseas trips, so he didn't go on his first big trip of '09 until Sept. We fought more than ever that year! It's a reprieve for both of us, when he's gone. I have asked him through the years to look into switching to a competitor company, in a warmer climate, (and most especially post-A), since OM is in our area, but he says he'd probably have to travel more with other companies. Really, this once per month thing is relatively recent. In the past it was usually e/o month overseas, if that, and then smaller quick domestic trips in between. I've never thought of it as A LOT of travel, but again maybe that's just because it's all I've ever known? Good commonsense suggestions, JL- thanks. If anyone is around tonight.... could you provide me with just one nugget of something solid I could try with my husband tonight, (besides the obvious anyway)-- something graceful and compassionate or whatever pep said that isn't just "nice"??? 
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Melody~ Really, you think his traveling less would help that much? It is the only life we know. When the economy first tanked at the end of '08, his company stopped most overseas trips, so he didn't go on his first big trip of '09 until Sept. We fought more than ever that year! It's a reprieve for both of us, when he's gone. I don't see how you can possibly fall in love with him when he is gone all the time. You had to have realized how devastating his traveling has been to your marriage over the years? You can't fall in love this way. In order to fall in love, it is imperative to meet each others EN's on a daily basis. Just look at military marriages, divorce is epidemic in military marriages. Dr Harley has stated openly here he does not know how to create a good marriage when the couple lives apart like this. This is a non starter if he doesn't leave that job. Without stopping the travel, you are essentially attempting to cure bronchitis while you chain smoke. his company stopped most overseas trips, so he didn't go on his first big trip of '09 until Sept. We fought more than ever that year! It's a reprieve for both of us, when he's gone. It is a reprieve because you have a bad marriage. NOT because traveling is good for marriages. It is DEVASTATING to marriages. This is a non starter unless he stops traveling. You can't fix this marriage until that ends. If you don't believe me, ask Dr Harley. [for free] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dear Autumnday
I see that you are being helped by wiser people than myself in this thread. I only want to give you a hug from a friend.
{Atumnday!}
I will cross my fingers in prayer for you and your husband.
Yours Frank
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Are we really playing semantics here with the word NICE?
Good grief, I'll make sure I have my thesaurus open next time.
Instead, you come up with "nice".
It's not semantics.
It's about swimming in the deep end of personal responsibility and taking your own marital inventory.
You lack empathy.
Playing "nice" will only breed more resentments.
Developing empathy is an important GOAL for you.
Can't you see that?
Without empathy you are shallow and capable of cruelty.
I'm not "playing semantics".
I am spending my valuable time reaching out to you.
I'm not playing.
You won't get off so easily as "nice".
That is a shallow/hollow/meaningless effort.
It stands no where near as tall as a woman with empathy.
Sarcasm with the thesaurus comment will not help you.
And, that is my/our goal. To help you. And through you help your husband and your child have a real family.
Nice:
pleasant, agreeable, good, satisfying, gratifying, delightful, marvelous; entertaining, amusing, diverting, lovely, great. ANTONYMS unpleasant.
Empathize:
sympathize with, be in sympathy with, understand, share the feelings of, be in tune with; be on the same wavelength as, talk the same language as; relate to, feel for, have insight into; informal put oneself in someone else's shoes.
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Mel~
Because you seem to know a lot about a lot of different topics....
We are on a high deductible health insurance plan, but have a nice chunk of cash saved up in our HSA, (health savings account). Do you or anyone else here know if Harley's counseling would qualify as the kind of counseling that we could use those funds on, without being slammed by the 20% penalties, Mr. Obama has now imposed? I used to know the rules, and I know I could use that money for Harley's, and even if I had to pay a penalty, it was only 10%. Just wondering.... I just looked into this briefly and I doubt MB and Dr. Harley would be qualified expenditures from an HSA account. Although psychologists, psychiatrists and psychotherapists are included on the list of qualified expenditures, because Dr. Harley and MB are not licensed in all 50 states they can only really offer you "Marriage Coaching" universally on the web. So unless you live in Minnesota, "Marriage Coaching" isn't really on the list and is kind of a stretch to be included as a legitimate health care expense (despite my personal opinion to the contrary). That being said. Does that mean you can't TRY. The IRS really doesn't monitor HSA expenditures at all and I presume you have an HSA credit card you can just charge the program on PRESUMING it's covered. There is no automated IRS computer program out there that will automatically catch this and issue a line-audit notice and recalculation of your tax return. It would only become a question, IF, by chance, you got a full audit for 2011 sometime down the road. At that point they COULD catch it and you'd likely get hit with a tax liability and penalty. It's certainly not fraud because it's arguably a covered qualified expenditure and, sometimes, it's really not that bad to have something in your return which you lose on in an audit (It allows the auditor to feel he won and, perhaps, less likely to look and push for a "win" elsewhere in your return). Just my quick two cents as a tax attorney. Certainly consult your own tax advisers for their PAID opinions (though, I doubt anyone one of them will tell you, in writing, that you can take it...but maybe, I only made a cursory investigation and may be wrong) Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Hi Autumn, Just finished reading your thread. I saw that you asked some version of the question - "How do you make yourself want to fall in love when you don't want to" a couple of times. I believe you even asked if you were just supposed to "fake it" at first. The answer to that question is found in one of the very best things that I learned at MB: FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS. So no, you will not suddenly be overtaken by some magic feeling - you must act on your logic and reason of knowing that the BEST possible scenario is for you and your husband to remain married and fall romantically in love with each other - Understanding that in order for that to happen you must follow the PLAN - even when you don't "feel" like it. I like that JL quoted what you said regarding the time period just following the affair - how the two of you were talking and having lots of SF - Naturally the two of you were happier then - In order to fall in love you must be spending 15 to 20 hours of UA time together meeting the 4 most intimate emotional needs: 1. Intimate conversation 2. Affection 3. Sexual Fulfillment 4. Recreational Companionship Sounds like that is what you were doing post A...THAT is what you must be doing now - THAT is what you must continue doing for the rest of your lives... I also agree with Mel that the traveling job is a BIG problem. All of Pep's advice to you has also been top notch - I suspect you know that. Finally, I also agree with those that have repeatedly been telling you to call Steve. I called Mr. W and asked him if he would post to you about the insurance/HSA stuff - he may already have done that before I get this post in... Lastly, if I were you I would ALSO call in to Dr. Harley - You can use all the help you can get and both Steve and Dr. Harley are the best - you guys need the BEST. And Autumn, I wouldn't worry that someone would recognize your voice on the radio - Anyone that is listening to Dr. Harley is VERY likely listening because they also have [or have had] problems in their marriages too. It really is a silly excuse not to call. Wishing you the best~ Mrs. W P.S. Oh yeah ~ I also saw that you asked if people really have happy marriages - The answer is a resounding YES - Most definitely YES...Work the program - in it's entirety - EVERY SINGLE DAY - It Works! It really, Really, REALLY works! REALLY! 
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Marriage counseling - Expenses for marriage counseling services do not qualify as medical expenses. However, sexual inadequacy or incompatibility treatment is reimbursable if the treatment is provided by a psychiatrist. http://www.cigna.com/our_plans/medical/fsa/fsa_health.html
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Though, yes... he does throw the A at me in arguments, reminding me that I'm the one that did the wrong in our marriage, so I have no room for complaint. I'm guessing that's fairly typical though? While that certainly hasn't been typical in our marriage - as in, Mr. W has never done that to me, it's typical enough that Dr. Harley has written about it: It's called secondary gain: Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.
By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.
What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.
I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."
My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.
Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment. Something else, Autumn: About the snoring...I wrote to Dr. Harley about that issue a few years ago - it was ruining our ability to sleep peacefully in the same room. Dr. Harley categorized Mr. W's snoring under "annoying habits" and also warned of the health risks to him if he didn't have it checked out. Mr. W did a sleep study and was found to have sleep apnea. He now sleeps with a CPAP machine and is far more rested because of it - now he can't sleep without it. Snoring is a thing of the past! I no longer dread him coming to bed - In fact, it's very rare that we don't go to bed at the same time now [very important, imo] - Before I would try to go first, so I could get to sleep before the "nightly symphony" began...Needless to say, our bedtime is far more enjoyable for both of us now... Like your husband, one of my annoying habits was wanting to sleep with the T.V. on - Mr. W could NOT sleep that way. What I did to eliminate my annoying habit? On nights that I feel that I can't sleep without watching something, I use earbuds and my laptop - Mr. W sleeps peacefully, and his lovebank for me doesn't take a hit. For us, it's a win/win solution! Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate it.
Pep~ I'm sorry for the sarcasm. I know you're trying to help. I was just trying to point out that I didn't put a lot of thought in the word I chose, (nice). Though,I suppose it does fit my perspective, because my first moves toward him would probably be just that.... ~nice~. Let me tell you, ~nice~ is a helluva lot better than either of us have been on a consistent basis in a very long time. It's a start, no? If I felt deep empathy for him, I'm not sure I'd even be here in the first place?
Mrs. W~ Thank you for the snoring/sleep apnia info. This is really a big issue on a few levels. Not only has it kept us from sleeping together for years, but I KNOW he is not getting a good night's sleep, because he falls asleep the moment he comes home from work, and sleeps for hours on end during the days of the weekend. If he's not moving- he's sleeping. I know that' kind of a man thing, but I think it's worse with him, and he's "moving" less and less. He is ALWAYS worn out. Of course, I'm sure our situation adds to that, because stress is exhausting. So, between his sleep pattern, work schedule, travel, and my lack of going out of the way to do stuff together-- we don't spend a lot of time together, and when we do- OC is with us 90% of the time.
Mr. W~ Thank you for the HSA tax penalty info. Yes, we have an HSA debit card, I could use for Dr. Harley.
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You're welcome! Snoring IS a big issue -- I really found myself getting seriously ANGRY at Mr. W over it -- It was that bad. The health risks to men especially are terrible too...google it and show your husband. It's serious, and something he MUST do something about. I see that BigKahuna has also posted to you on this thread -- I know that when I wrote into Dr. Harley about Mr. W's snoring, BK is one who also followed his advice on this issue. It has been a Godsend for he and MrsKahuna - He got his machine before Mr. W did and was able to answer a lot of questions for him as well as helping him with the whole process of exactly what equipment to get... Hopefully, he'll pop in on your thread again should you have any questions - He is very knowledgeable about all things CPAP... Okay, enough about that for now... Autumn, what are you going to DO? What ACTIONS are you going to take? If you think about it, you've proven to yourself that feelings do follow actions - Look back at your and your husband's actions immediately following the affair, and how your feelings followed those actions - See? It works - Now, are you willing to work it? Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Oh, and tonight's fight got me back up to the poor state of our M being 90% my fault. Yeah, it was a good one. And how did THAT follow MB or help save your M? Actually, your ATTITUDE is 100% your responsibility. Fix your attitude. You've been given some excellent suggestions. Earlier you indicated you said to your husband, "We have to talk" He's been home 15 hours after being gone a few weeks.
We talked a bit when he first got home- catching him up with the goings on within the family, local news, etc. Mostly he played with OC and the new toy he brought back for OC.
The 3 of us, (H, OC, me), went out to a favorite spot for dinner last night. H made the a kissing gesture to me from across the table. I didn't respond. He said, "dead fish".
On way home, I said, "We need to talk one of these days"
He laughed and said, "About what? You don't ever want to talk to me."
That was the extent of our conversation. He went to his room. I went to mine. Haven't seen him yet this morning. Our house is just big enough to keep to our separate places.
I feel paralyzed to move.
I can't see the other side of this AT ALL. So let me see if I understand. He talks, he even flirts with you and once he does that. You shut down. He's right, you "never" want to talk. From his perspective, you don't want to have the conversation he's dying to have. It may not be words, but it is speaking the language of romance. You just ended the conversation, and then emotionally confused him by saying you need to talk. If you needed to talk (from his perspective) you wouldn't have given him the cold-fish routine. So you've given him the "We need to talk about what you are doing wrong" message. Who wants to have that conversation. Just Learning had a great idea. Talk about what you want, not what's wrong. Talk about what HE WANTS and then start giving it to him. The steps are simple. But you've decided they are not easy or are impossible. If you want a great marriage, start by being a great wife to your husband. Until you are great wife, your actions are saying you don't really want a great marriage. You just want to complain and shift the blame to him. Only great wives are able to have great marriages. So until you do your part, the great marriage will never happen.
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PS.
Love is not something you find. Love is something you do. If you lack love for your spouse, you probably are not DOING. Stop looking and start DOING.
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Curious advice coming from someone whose signature is, "I can't do this alone, but I can do this!"
You're right about him being right- I don't ever want to talk anymore. There isn't much to talk about. I bore the heck out of him, and he bores the heck out of me.
I am not blaming him. We both suck.
Yes, my attitude is 100% my responsibility/fault- but that is not what H is referring to.
My subject line was wrong too?
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What conversation do you think he's dying to have?
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AD,
Do you at least have a photo of the OM for your OC? While technically this is a violation of NC, it may be something OC will want at some time in the future.
A persons heritage is something real that gives them identity, and as much as people will tend to deride that statement they may also have never experienced it.
If only you and H know there is a very real danger that information will be lost should you both meet some misfortune. Does the OM know of OC?
I was lucky enough to have many of the players still alive and with good memories of what had happened, so that I was able to reconstruct my early life in patches.
God Bless
Gamma
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AD,
Do you at least have a photo of the OM for your OC? While technically this is a violation of NC, it may be something OC will want at some time in the future.
A persons heritage is something real that gives them identity, and as much as people will tend to deride that statement they may also have never experienced it.
If only you and H know there is a very real danger that information will be lost should you both meet some misfortune. Does the OM know of OC?
I was lucky enough to have many of the players still alive and with good memories of what had happened, so that I was able to reconstruct my early life in patches.
God Bless
Gamma What does this have to do with helping AD restore the love in her marriage?
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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