I was hoping to post in Recovery someday, but that hope finally died 2 days ago. I want to thank Dr. Harley, and all the people on this board. MB has allowed to start learning what I didn't learn in my childhood: How to be a husband. But, unfortunately it was too late I guess. Although, as you'll see in my signaure, it isn't totally a one sided deal; like any relationship.

Background: Wife is German. I was stationed there, we met, fell in love, and got married a few months before our son was born. She has a very troubled past with her family (sexually abusive Grandfather, alcoholic parents who gave her little attention, and the attention was usually negative). I am no professional, but I would say she is a classic example of a Cluster B personality.

Anywho, 2 years after our son was born (and a severly disconnected marriage), we left Germany for the US. She had never lived outside of Germany, and took the move pretty hard. For a year she didn't work, and wouldn't accept putting our son in a daycare. So, she eventually took a trip home, and that was when the first A happened. It was completely planned, and was the resaon for the trip. I found out after she returned, when she informed me she was planning on taking our son to Germany and being with the OM. They were in love. I quickly filed, blocked my son's removal from the country, and confiscated his documents. She had no job in the US at the time, so she sold some things (our rings, which I bought the one I gave to her) and flew back to Germany. Classic "runner". 4 weeks later, she returns full of guilt and apologies. But, cannot say the words verbally, so she hands me a letter. I take some time, and decide let's try and work it out.

That recovery lasted 2 years, and included a 4 month deployment. It wasn't always easy, but we also didn't really change anything about our relationship. It was definitely child-centric. I had a VERY hard time letting go of the resentment and holding the A against her. But I got better as time progressed. Then, this past April she goes back to Germany (has had a job for almost 2 years now, so saved her money and paid for the trip with a little help from me) to see some friends and family. She returns, and things are a little wierd.

I go out of town on business for a week. I return, get the phone bill a week later and notice it's a little high and a German number I've never seen. Do some digging (A's make you good at that) and find out it's a young man stationed in Germany. Ask her who he is, and she say's "It's just somebody I met who is going through some rough times and I was kind of helping him out." She lied pretty good, cause I believed her. I was also fighting my trust issues after 2 years, so I think that had a little to do with it. A few weeks later, I get the itch and go snooping hardcore. Then I find the evidence verifying the second A. I lose it, and go on yet another roller coaster. I waffled big time on this one, and eventually we agree to give it another shot. A "restart" in her words.

I had found MB this time, and read HNHN and SAA. It made me realize what I (repeat "I") hadn't been doing throughout our entire relationship. So I commit to working on me. I ask her to read HNHN as I read SAA. She starts, but the motivation just doesn't seem to be there for long. Also, I really don't see any "action" that would suggest she sees the recovery the way I do.

So, she begins flirting with someone she met on FB while we were seperated. I find it (snooping, she never gave me passwords), explain my feelings about it, and it seems she understood and implies that she'll stop. Sunday night, we have some friends over and she has about a bottle of wine. She ends up sending this OM another message stating she misses talking to him. I find it, confront her and tell her "If you're going to keep doing this, please get out of my life". I know, ultimatums are bad. And yes, I pushed her in the corner and gave her only one option. So, now she has realized there is no love there to grow, and she's tired of pretending. She just wants to be free and not "tied down". Admits she's tired of hurting the people around her. But still will not answer if she wants to change herself to stop that...

I know that I've tried as hard as I can, and endured more than most could. But, she is apparently not going to choose anyway that involves facing some demons. She refuses counseling of any kind, since it is judgemental and "brainwashing" So, I now must do the hardest thing I can imagine: go dark, and withold the only thing I've ever wanted to give her; my love. The D-Train will be roling again, and I don't think it will be making any stops this time.

This is by no means an exhastively complete story, and I'll admit I deserve some 2x4s. But, as they say, the saga continues....

Conveyed the message of "Since you want to be free of me, I don't want to talk to you about anything that doesn't affect STBDS. We are now just business partners." STBX replied with a nod, and almost immediately stopped what she was doing, took one last sip of her wine, got dressed, and boom! Gone.

I am not suprised. I did explain that this was not some sort of childish revenge, just that I am doing what she wants: giving up and not giving her my love anymore. Those were two specific requests of hers.

She will be moving out to a temporary house with some friends of ours. Until she finds another place. She will only have one room, and I asked her how she wanted to handle this with STBDS; "If she was expecting to let him sleep in the same room as hers?" "Yeah, that's what sucks about it." Well, DUH! I then suggested that he stay at home until she has her arrangements settled. Of course, who knows when that will be...

I really am trying to seperate all the angst, hurt, and emotion from this Plan D. But, I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel good that I hit a nerve and removed some fantasy with my earlier comments.

To the rest of my "good men" out there, how did you get through this without it turning you into someone that you don't like. All I've ever wanted to do is give this woman my love, give her happiness; even if it's without me...

A little update. I definitely suck at holding the Plan B/D(?) line. I lost it Saturday night. I had dropped our son off with my mother earlier in the day. We had planned a couple of weeks ago to go out and see a band she likes at a local watering hole, with a few of her friends (to include the flirting boy wonder).

Well, that date wasn't kept obviously. But, as I sit in the house feeling the lonliest I've felt since I can remember, my feelings of hurt and anger took over. I went looking for retribution. So, I grabbed a suitcase, tossed some of her stuff in, drove to the bar and put the bag in her car. I went inside to let her know, and to not come back to the house tonight. Then I asked if "he" was there. He wasn't, which is good because my Taker was in full force and I was going to battle it out on the playground. I say playground, because afterwards I felt like a 9 year old in a temper tantrum. I ended up doing my usual DJ by pushing converstaions focused on getting her to realize how bad she's been, and how this is her fault. Not my exact words, but that's what I was trying to get across. I see that now.

The next day (she slept in the car all night), I felt so bad and became apologetic. There goes Plan B attempt #1. She knows that I don't want to give up, and is definitely going to continue to use me. For example: we were planning to take a trip to Germany to visit the Christmas Markets (early December); she is still willing to just stay in the house and not pay for anything so that she doesn't have to tell our son that we're not going. She has around $1200 saved up for the tickets (I was footing the in-country expenses), and figures she shouldn't waste all that on an apartment and such. Of course not. To help things, our state pretty much makes it clear that I cannot force her from the house, or in any other way really.

So, she's the one who doesn't love me and wants to end the M, but she also doesn't want to leave me because it would inconvienence her wishes. Anyone have any suggestions/options?

But, and here's the part that always kills me. Last night (after she knows she can continue to get conversation needs met), she tells me that she thinks she knows why she is "addicted to the attention". That it's because in her mind she might think that is all she is worth; that that is how all the men in her life have treated her, as a sexual object and nothing more. I told her that I was trying to help her figure out the "whys", and that she is worth more than that. She said "I know I'm worth more than that", to which I replied "I'm happy to hear you say that.".

So, still lost. Still trying to wade through the muck, and figure out what I like about the muck. I am starting to come to grips with the fact that I can only control what I DO. I used to say to other people all the time "Control what you can, and don't worry about the rest". Apparently I wasn't listening to myself when I said that.

EDIT:
Also, I just kind of realized that I may be past a Plan B/D(?). Of course, I'm posting in the D forum, so I guess I should just be focusing on a Plan D. Like the thread title says: lost.

But, I just got back from running. I haven't voluntarily ran in ages... Life is changing, guess I'll change with it.

Itsaname,
Welcome to MB. I'm sorry you're struggling. I'm not sure how much I can help. I am a little tired so I couldn't follow your posts that well. I think you have a bit of a mess due to starting a Plan B, then seeking her out Saturday night, and I'm not sure I understand where she is living. But I have a few questions and then a couple of things jumped out at me.

You say you were in "recovery" and "false recovery"... were those MB recoveries (did you actually have an understanding about marriages and affairs and the Steve Harley material at the time)? for me, I thought I had recovered from my wife's first PA, until I got here and found out the way I had handled it was more damaging than many other approaches.

Has your wife ever had any substantial counseling to deal with the things in her childhood. Sounds nightmarish. Not being judgmental - the reason I bring it up is that my ex also had a very rough up-bringing. I think deep down I was always trying to save her from something; however, she never chose to really address the issues. Between my ignorances and her carrying around this nasty mess from her early teen years, I don't think we ever really had a chance to have a MB type marriage. I've finally learned to work on my side of the street. I guess my point is that if she hasn't had, and won't get help for the serious issues, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle for a long time.

Did you ever do a Plan A? Plan B is more effective after a good Plan A (sorry if I missed that part in your posts).

BTW - DS="Darling Son" --I don't know what you mean by STBDS.


hmmmm, sounds wayward.

Not sure if I qualify as a "good man" but I'm trying, really I am. Personally I think if you can apply the principles from MB to yourself (like no AO's...even in the privacy) you can fend off that guy you don't like. I'd rather think of it in the converse: "how can I continue to make sure I'm becoming a person that I do like." Personally, I'm working on Boundaries - another good book you might consider "Boundaries: when to say yes..." It's helped me have some discipline to rid myself of some habits that helped me hate myself.

.
Attaboy! Physical Exercise is Always good.

I wish I could help you more, Itsaname. Since there is some infidelity here, you may consider moving your thread to the Surviving an Affair Forum. There's a lot of good folks over there that could probably help you.

~Optimism

Yeah, I need to clean up the story in my original post. As you know, it's hard sometimes to put it all down with the rest of the stuff going on in your head. As for where she is living: still in the house. She is well aware that legally I cannot force her to leave; and she doesn't want to take all the responsibility to support herself. She has pretty much said that to my face. Even though she didn't need to, because she won't even take the first step (hasn't in the past either).


Well, after DDay#1 I was a wreck and searching all over the place. I did stumble upon some of the MB questionaires, but didn't stumble into the whole concept. So like I said, we never really changed anything about our relationship or ourselves. After DDay#2, I started reading MB and HNHN/SAA. That's when I realized how DDay#2 was inevitable, and that no matter how it went from there, I was going to change how I view and participate in relationships. A month or so after I said that to my wife, she kind of seemed to agree. But, it seems she didn't really buy into it. To this day, she maintains that she's only stayed with me because of our DS; she doesn't want to be the reason for his unhappiness since it would be "her fault".


The only counseling she has gone to was 2 sessions after the first A. She stopped it because she felt it was judgemental and brainwashing, as I stated earlier. I asked her last week if she would go and see a MC with me, and again she pointed out that she doesn't need that brainwashing.

I know it's always come across as a DJ when I try and help her deal with her past. Help her understand how it has shaped her views, and possibly ruined her chances to let herself be happy. I have my opinions on what it has done to her, but have always carried the caveat that I am not a professional and I have not experienced it myself. I know that it has to be her decision, but when you're under the impression that you can't change, aren't worth the change, and don't have the strength to change; you just don't see it. I know that people in my past helped guide me to being able to recognize that I may need help, and have supported me in that. I want nothing more than to be one of those people for my wife. Even if it means we are no longer married. An added bonus, is that it will help our DS in the long run.


Here is where I need a 2x4. I did the carrot side; no stick side (Pepper is going to hit me so hard). But also did not eliminate all of my LBs. She still views me as "controlling", although she has refused to answer the question if I've been that way since I REALLY started working on myself. She enjoyed the things I was working on too. The affection, the getting out and doing more (although we still hadn't done anything alone yet, without DS). But, she said she didn't like "taking" all of that and not "giving" anything in return. I then reminded her that it has only been a month and a half... We have 5+ years of bad relationship to recover from; and we also have to not dwell on that, but leave it behind and look forward...



Ooops. I was thinking DS = "Divorced Son". Guess I SHOULD have looked at the acronym thread.



Yep. Like I said, she's still in the EA la-la land. I'm kind of at a point where I don't even want to snoop to find out if she's continuing it. Like I said in a later post, she seems to maybe understand why she's addicted to the attention, and I get from the way she talks about it (non-verbals) that she doesn't like being stuck in it.


I've seen that book recommended a lot. I may just have to pick it up. Waiting on a couple "divorce with kids" books to show up. Man my reading list is getting long...

When I did what could barely be perceived as a Plan B, I had the notion in my head that since I love this woman that I was going to have to use all the anger and pain I could muster in order to turn my back on her. Well, that blew up in my face, b/c it just made me act like a 9 year old who didn't get his ice cream.

Well, it's a requirement for me anyway (military). But, it was kind of nice to actually get out and do it on my own. It's just a tiny little victory in the past week.

Thanks for replying opt, as I've been reading your posts since our situations have some similarities.

First things first, opt mentioned putting this in SAA. While no D has been filed, I don't really see this going anywhere else this time. But, if a Mod wishes to move this to a more appropriate forum, I am completely fine with that.

Second, I think I'm just going to start posting my journal entries in here. Why write everything twice? I will of course edit them, because I have a sailor's mouth. So here goes, 28 Sep... Oh, and the times are in military standard...

--28 Sep 2010--
0635: Not much new to write I guess. Still the same old song and dance. I've been thinking about W (and just about everyone else) saying that I deserve better. While that may be the conventional wisdom, I find some flaws in it. "Deserving" something implies a sense of entitlement. The only thing I'm entitled to is the right to recieve what I need (air, food, shelter). Anything else is extraneous. Happiness isn't an entitlement. While I think it makes life A WHOLE LOT BETTER, we aren't entitled to it. So, I think I will revise the statement to this: "I deserve what I want." Plain and simple, I want Mrs. Name. I want her to want me. But, I am starting to come to terms that I cannot control that. I cannot control every aspect of my life. I have been known to tell quite a few people the following statement: "control what you can, and don't worry about what you can't". It seems that I need to listen to myself. I'm sure Dr. Harley would classify me as moving from the Conflict stage to the Withdrawal stage. And, that probably won't get me what I deserve, but it will help with my sanity. In other news, I went running last night. I haven't voluntarily gone running in a very long time. Life is changing, and I might as well continue changing with it. I did not sleep very well last night though. I dreampt of Mrs. Name ALL NIGHT, and it kept waking me up. More later...time for work.


1910: Where to start? Work. I did not have a good day at work. Early in the morning I made a bad decision, and was immediately called out on it. I knew that I had made the bad decision, and that the person who called me out have every right to. This sent my day into a tailspin. I spent the rest of the day in the sourest of moods, and focused only on the negative things happening in my life. There were so many times I just wanted to crawl in a hole and cry. Of course, most of the thoughts were of how my family is falling apart yet again. The thing that, while it may not be apparent to some, has been at the core of my very life. I made an appointment to speak to a family counselor tomorrow. She seems infinitely better than the counselor I spoke to 2 years ago. I went back to work, and got the rest of my a$$ chewing from my boss. Finally, at around 1500 I decided I was getting out of there. I was about to crack and just start sobbing like a bi+$# in front of everyone. As I left, I remembered that Mrs. Name and DS were going to see The Gaurdians today. So, I asked Mrs. Name if she wanted to go alone with DS, or if I could join. She seemed a little apprehensive, but it may have just been because she would be adjusting her original plan. But, the movie was great. And I think we had a great time as a family. Halfway through the movie, DS came and sat on my lap. Mrs. Name made no motions whatsoever, which meant that it bothered her a little. Not that he "chose" me; she just has that bond with him in her mind. I will not speculate that she felt what I did later though. After about 5-10 minutes, I told DS to go sit with his mother. I couldn't think of basking in such great attention while she didn't get to either. As DS sat with his mother, I gazed upon the two of them with such amazement. There was my family. My life. And it was so beautiful. Once again, the thought of losing it crept back into my mind. I yet again had to fight off the water works. Mrs. Name noticed me gazing, I know that. And again, she made no movement, but I could see she was holding back something. So, not to cause any tension or awkardness, I turned back to the movie. It really was a good movie too. So, fast forward to the car on the way home. We're driving, well she's driving and has become a very offensive driver at that, and I notice her look over at my wedding ring on my hand. So I just flat out said, "You're wondering why I'm wearing this." She gave an aggreable nod. So I simply said, "This is what I choose. It's not to confuse you. It's not to change your mind. It's just what I choose. I cannot control what you choose, and I will not try. I'm trying really hard to accept that." And that was it. I can only hope that it set her mind in motion, because she quickly changed the music to ABBA and their particularly "let me go" breakup songs. It is what it is. "Let it go. It's ok to feel these emotions. Let it go." I really am trying. Hopefully my IC can help with this. I haven't told Mrs. Name yet that I'm seeing a counselor, although I doubt it would make much of a difference. Oh, and I also let Mrs. Name know that I was thankfull she changed her plan to let me come, and that I needed that for my day. She was only slightly concerned about my bad day, but at this point I'll take slightly any day of the week. It sure feels better than total disregard...

2015: Good lord snooping becomes addictive. Of course, it's partly my control issue that's driving it. I just made myself vulnerable again, and it's a defense to see if I'm just going to get hurt again. I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. This is the third time I've gone through this and it really is just becoming the norm...

0900: Gave DS a shower while Mrs. Name was running on her eliptical. After checking the weather, picking out his clothes, and ensuring he brushed his teeth I put him in the bed. we did our bedtime talk, and I let Mrs. Name know that he was going to bed. She examined the clothing I picked for the next day, and after letting her know the weather, she of course changed part of the outfit. Saw that one coming a mile away. Hell, I don't think any of my choices have EVER passed the test in 5 years. So sad... Anyway, she did her bedtime talk. As she was walking back to her running, I asked her if she'd be interested in having a conversation later. Got the usual sighing-roll-of-the-eyes response, to which I said "I'll take that response as a no." I'm sure she's expecting the usual "we should stay together" talk, which it is kind of like that. But, I just want to convey my message from earlier a little better. Why do I still try? Why do I still want to be married to someone who is more than happy to accept my financial, time, and emotional support when it suits her, but doesn't want my love or to be my wife?

Once again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.


Oh, and I'm going to have to get used to the post edit limitations here...

--29 Sep 2010--
1946: Last night ended a little differently than I expected. As I finally decided to goto bed around 2200, Mrs. Name was still dying her hair. The light was on in the bathroom, but she was downstairs on her computer. As I was in my recently usual mode of listening to my IPod, I figured what the hell; it's not like I'll be falling asleep anytime soon. So, after about 15 minutes of laying in the bed and her not coming upstairs to finish what she needed to, I went downstairs and asked her if she was finished. She said she needed to take a shower, and began to move as though she was going to do so now. So, back to the bed I went and the earphones went back in. She finished and started to put her delicates on. What's to lose? So I said to her, "The conversation I wanted to have is probably not what you think. I just wanted to ask you if you had any more thoughts on what you told me the other night about why you're addicted to male attention". She kind of thought for a second, and said not really. She then sat down on the bed. Knowing that is a sign of at least compromising to enter a conversation, I took the opportunity. As it was getting kind of late, I don't remember exactly what I said next. I think it was more of what I said earlier that day; my choice, I can't control her choices, and that I can only react to her choices. I noted that my past "reactions" have been very harsh, and it's something that I had yet to start working on. But I'm doing so now, because we cannot continue to communicate that way. I'm really just laying some ground work on those points. I also recognized that she felt controlled, and that it was not my intent. Then, I recalled something I had read in a MB thread either that day or earlier. It was from a WS, and they were talking about how they didn't see the M as reconcilable until they had let go of the guilt. While Mrs. Name has maintained "no regrets", and she definitely didn't say/feel sorry for the first A; she was genuine in her apology after the second A. She has also maintained that her "guilt" is only towards DS. So, I decided to explore that possibility of guilt. But, instead of flat out asking since I knew it wouldn't get a true answer, I kind of flipped it. I asked her, "Do you think I've forgiven you?". She replied with a quick "no". I let it sit for a second, then I looked deep into her eyes and said, "I have.". She kind of didn't accept the answer, in silence. So I sat up, leaned closer to her, looked deep into her eyes again and said "Mrs. Name, I forgive you". Then she asked, "Why would you?" I replied, "Because I don't need to hold on to it. I'm not here to punish you; that's not my job. I told you that last Monday night." She then said, "But, people don't do this". I replied "There are millions of people doing it RIGHT NOW. I've read some stories of what other people have gone through, and to be honest some of them scare me even now." She then brought up something she had told me for the first time last Wednesday; she had a "crush" on someone before we left Germany. I told her that at this point it doesn't suprise me; our relationship was sh!# at that point. She had been alone for almost a year (no friends/family coming around), and I was working 14 hours a day, and when I was home I was possibly the worst husband I could be; but that I won't be that husband from now on. She then just kind of let that go, but asked me if I knew who it was. I told her who I thought it was. I was wrong, but she kind of laughed at my "idea" and made one of those cute little slaps on my leg and chuckled. It was kind of a weird moment. She then told me who it was, and it made sense. It also was the person she got upset about when they removed her from their FB friends because they had entered a relationship; she couldn't comprehend that. Maybe I should take that and run eh? I really don't remember what happened after that since the awkard part of the conversation threw my head off, and it was getting late (midnight). But, she eventually got up and said "I'm thirsty" and exited the room. I then fell asleep. I don't remember dreaming of her all night, but the extra pillow was on the ground when I woke up. This would be an indication that I was pretty restless...

Now for today. Woke up a little late. Got moving, made it to work, blah blah blah. My first IC appointment was today. I was kind of anxious as I wasn't really sure what I wanted to talk about. So, the IC asked for the story. Gave her the background, and then started getting up to current events. But to be honest, I only remember two things she said. Mostly because one of them was so outrageous. But, first for the milder of the two. We were talking about DS, and how after the first A, Mrs. Name and I had made him the reason for working it out. To which she replied, "That's a lot of pressure for a child to live up to." I had honestly never looked at it from that approach. It kind of made sense too, but I'm not sure if a 5 year old would be aware of that pressure. He definitely knows something up, and no doubt remembers when his mother took off for 3 weeks. But, now for the VERY last thing I thought I would hear today. Now, remember this is on a military installation, with a licensed counselor on a GOV contract. She brought up a point of A's not destroying marriages. I kind of thought to myself, well yeah...I'm on A#2 and I'm still willing to keep trying. Then she floored me. She said, in summary, that many couples engage in a Swinger lifestyle and have completely healthy marriages and home lives; that the sexual openness was just "for fun". EXCUSE ME?!?! Are you serious? I was speechless. After about 30 seconds of silence, all I could mutter was "Yeah, I couldn't handle that". She then said to me, "Well, that's what your wife is doing." HOLY FU%$!? Are you an idiot? If you want to equate a mutually agreed open "lifestyle", to being the same as a dark, secret life you hide from your spouse....you get paid for this? But, I simply replied "I'm pretty sure my wife couldn't handle that either." Who knows, maybe she could, but I sure as sh!# aint going down that road. So yeah, I made another appointment but I'm more than certain I'll be cancelling that and finding a different IC; even if it comes out of my pocket.

Oh, and I wrote Mrs. Name a little note this morning. She said she enjoyed getting them when we started this again. I wished her luck on her application/possible interview for the second maybe replacement job. She was going there today. I also told her that I would always be there for her, if she needed. Later in the day, I was kicking myself in the a$$ for not adding the words "if you choose" at the end of that last sentence. One step forward, two steps back...

That's really about it. Seems kind of "dull" for the last few days.

Hey Itsa!
You'll have to ask them to move it- hit "modify" if you choose to do so. You're certainly welcome to hang here though as far as I'm concerned.
I consider my threads a sort of "journal" also. I'm honest as I can be as I figure there's no reason not to be. And you get the added benefit of getting feedback once in a while.

It's late so I just wanted to point out a couple of things from your last couple of posts. I can't really tell if your wife is having an active affair. If so, please don't read too much into the "tender moments" you're getting from her. Sorry to say it, but they're only crumbs. You're giving her cake, she's also getting it from somewhere else; it's quite a life.

You're on this board, but some of your statements make it sound like you do want to save your marriage. If you decide on that, you will have to take steps to end her affair, if she is in one. Then you will need to move your thread or start another in the SAA board, where the experts are.

Your crying incidents are completely normal. You're mourning the loss of a life you once new. You will never get back the marriage of security and complete blind trust. You've lost your innocence my friend. It's worth crying about. We all did. It's part of the deal.

I say don't make too much of the 'tender moments' but I'm not discouraging you. These are great Plan A type conversations in my understanding. She needs to hear from you that you are not judging her, that you ahve the capacity to forgive. She will also need to hear that you will absolutely not accept being in a relationship with someone who will not honor their vow to "forsake all others."

There's nothing wrong with starting over - plan A, then plan B. Right now, you're kind of floating around, that's okay for now. At least you're here and trying to examine your situation. You've already given yourself the best chance to succeed in one way or another just by availing yourself to this resource. And that is VERY important for your child - for you to be the best itsaname you can get to be. Read what you can, keep thinking, keep searching your heart and then make a decision. There are people here to help you with whatever that is. Forget about that bone-head therapist. Good grief.

opt

edit

**EDIT**

Well, I haven't updated this thread lately. Been busy focusing elsewhere. I'll try and answer a few questions real quick though.

Yes, I have wanted to, and continue to want to save my marriage.

No, my W is not currently in an A. She hasn't spoken to the guy she was recently flirting with in a few weeks. I think it was more his realization that he was playing a game that he TRULY didn't want to play. Ahh to be young and stupid eh? My W has also realized that she doesn't really want to be viewed as being worth nothing more than a sexual object; even though she still craves that attention.

She is now in the "I don't know what I want" state of mind. So, I'm still in a Plan A I guess. Things get pretty confusing sometimes. I get comments that lead me to hope she'll choose to do anything to restore our relationship. And then I'll get comments that sound like she wants to leave, and the ILYBNILWY we all know and hate.

So, for now things are just sort of stuck. I've been pondering on how long I can handle this, and allow myself to stay in this mindset.

I've been trying really hard to focus on the only thing I can control in this relationship: me. And just accept that I cannot control my W's decisions; I can only react to them. Also, I've been trying to eliminate my LBs; the biggest of which are my DJs combined with AOs, which push her into corners (i.e. "Change or leave").

Slow blows the wind...

And today's journal entry:

Just got back from buying DS a suit for a friend's wedding. He's going to be the ring-bearer, and she wanted him in a suit naturally. But, as usual things like this are muddled with Mrs. Name's inability to make a decision and deal with it. After what seems like a promising few weeks, topped off with going out this past weekend and enjoying a date (although there was another person there) without our DS there. She had started to wear her ring again. She had slept in the bed with me a couple nights in a row. But, aparently her doubts about her "feelings,
or if I have any" have caused her to withdrawal again. I noticed her distancing herself over the past couple of days; I've gotten good at reading that. So today, I once again was "forced" to push the issue. And once again, it was met with mostly uncomfortable silence. I let her know that I have doubts too, but that I view them as being defenses stemming from the past. That I believe we can make this work if really decide to. That was around 1100 this morning. A little later I noticed that she removed the picture from Facebook of us kissing on our date. I asked her for a copy of it.

Fast forward to about 1430, and DS and I are at her work. I had found a suit there, and was letting her see it and of course going to let her ring me up so it would go on her sales numbers. And then, I notice she isn't wearing her ring. I wanted to start a fight right there in the store. But, I contained my hurt for the moment. She was ringing me up a little later, and I guess I just let my fortitude down. I made the decision right then and there to call my lawyer; so I told her that's what I was going to do. That I couldn't do this back-and-forth stuff anymore, and how I wished that I could, but I just can't. Her reply was a reluctant, almost sad "Ok.". Honestly though, I really can't do this anymore. I can't just be victim to her daily changing emotions which rock like a ship in a hurricane; and how she lets her choices follow suit solely based on this. I won't say that it is wrong to be that way, but I just can't live like that. I can't continue to wake up in the morning wondering if she is sleeping next to me. I can't continue to come home from work and wonder if she is wearing her ring (and check the ring box to find out). I guess I'm just done being a shirt on the rack, that you're just not sure if you'll wear it more than once so you just try it on a couple times a week to see if you like it enough to buy it. I'm done being a reluctant option. If you can't choose me, and face what comes with that choice... Fu#@. I'm so lost in all of this again. It just doesn't seem to end. Even now, after writing all of this, I'm wondering if I can do this. I've said I was done 3 times now, and each time I've buckled to my fears and emotions to reverse my decision and try with all my might to make this work. I know I've done enough. I know I've done my share. And now I'm just rambling off words. Thinking that it will make this clearer. And I'm starting to feel guilty for repeating "I, I, I" in all of this. Well, time to start writing a list of questions for the lawyer's consultation Monday.

And she's already bought her's and DS's tickets for their trip to Germany. She says that she wouldn't think of not returning; but there is still that little voice that tells me that with her emotional decision engine, that could change in an instant...especially while in Germany surrounded by family (whom wouldn't piss on her gums if her teeth were on fire). FML.

Back to D-ville. The past couple of months have been "comfortable" for both of us, and have included some good times. But, our Anniversary was Monday. She of course felt no need to celebrate that day, or do anything for me. I had roses, Champagne, strawberries, and made us dinner (grilled salmon & corn {actually grilled in 20 degree weather}, waldorf salad). I wasn't expecting anything from her, but the Taker won later that night. I went back downstairs after going to bed, and tried to kiss her. No-go. We had a small conversation last night, and to summarize, she has no emotional attachment to me what-so-ever. I'm a meal ticket. But, even she is growing tired of living like that...

So my hope is all gone. I'm done waiting for her to decide to move in either direction. I will make the moves, as I always have.

And in usual form, life keeps kicking it to ya. I know have to decide if I'm going to shoot to have the D done before, or after, my upcoming deployment in May. The only hangup for me is deciding what will be better/easier for DS to adjust to. I have finally realized that there is no perfect, or right, time to dismantle the poor child's life. I know that from my own past.

So what do you good folks think? Is it better to get my STBX out of the house and the D done before I leave for a few months? Or is it better to wait until I return? In short, I think it's "better" for DS to do it afterwards; "better" for me if I do it before.

I say this to you life: bring it. I've always pushed myself to be prepared for what you throw at me, and not let the things you suprise me with keep me down.

P.S. I asked her if there was anyone else again. She immediately got defensive and started blame-shifting and pointing to me being paranoid. I stopped her in her tracks, and pointed out that those were her choices, and that it was merely a question.

So, as I have just found out, I was right to question if there was yet another OM. She met him 2 weeks ago, on what was supposed to be a date for us but we couldn't find a babysitter; so she went alone. They slept together Thursday. And of course her fog makes her think "this one is different". And it's still time for her to just be happy; and she'll go through hell to get there.

Good riddance.

More to come...

I got all the way through this thread, and was pretty sure what I was going to post, until I read the very last post.

I think there are two things going on here.

1) After reading the thread, I was going to ask you if you had been successful in eliminating the DJs and AOs. I found myself skimming through the last several posts because I knew that no matter what your beef with her was, it wasn't going to matter if you were still doing the DJ and AO thing. I can look back on my lacking recovery, and see that the djs and aos did nothing but push my husband further out of the door.

2) Your wife does not have healthy relationship boundaries around other men, and if you want a monogomous relationship, she's not ready for that.

Only thing you can do is have some boundaries to keep you healthy and sane, and work on becoming a healthy partner, for her or someone else later down the road.

I made tons of mistakes in my recovery, filled with AOs and DJs towards my husband. He continued to fantasize about other women.

We were not prepared for the loving, committed, intimate relationship that we said we both wanted.

I have no choice but to work on myself to become a healthy partner in a great relationship one day. Your relationship will only be as healthy as the two people in it. And only she will go where she's ready to go.

Yes, I do feel I have curbed my DJs and AOs. I think the fact that she was just too far out of the door, kept her from building a $LB with me. While I may not be a completely changed man, I have worked my a$$ off to change how I participate in a relationship.


100% correct. She has never understand why someone would not be friends with the opposite sex, JUST because they are in a relationship. And this is where I was behind the power curve as far as boundaries go for me. There was a time when I felt the same way. But, that was when I was given every reason to trust her with my well being. It is quite amazing to watch someone change into the very thing you'd never expect them to be.


See emboldened. Of course, at this moment, I still have some hope that she will make the choice that I have made so far: to ENGAGE in the relationship to make it better, instead of WAITING for it to get better on it's own.

But, in the time it would probably take for her to get to that point, this hope will have died.


This is exactly what I told myself 6 months ago. And I continue to stand by that choice.

Thank you for responding MJ.

I understand. I curbed mine too, but the few times I didn't, it set our relationship back to the stone ages. However, Rome wasn't built in a day now was it. (or 4 yrs either with the rubble I had. ).



Same scenario in our relationship, and was one of the larger issues that helped to put the death knell on it.

I was always open to relationships with the opposite sex, as long as I was included in it. He didn't see it that way because we're talking about women in AA. Heck, they probably didn't have to be in AA. Just someone at work. It was more important to protect their privacy I guess, than our marriage. He felt "trapped".

I wonder if he thinks my "beliefs are limited" and "not over it" because I thought it was important to be included in what he shared with another women.

I use to be the same as you. I didn't have a problem with it, until he made it one with the poor boundaries. He claimed he learned where the dangers were, and had good boundaries, and he needed that to "be" himself, and be living a full and happy life. And you know what? He might get it as long as he never cheats again, or is with someone who doesn't know the dangers of private opposite relationships.

How are you going to approach the subject of opposite sex friends in future relationships?

"trapped". I had to quietly LOL on that one. I heard that too plenty of times. Guess what. Noone is keeping you here. If you want to leave, you can. But, you don't have to completely rip my heart out again with ANOTHER affair while you leave...

And to think that my STBX told me 5 months ago that she had a problem with boundaries (in a negative way). She just blurted it out too; no prompting. But, some people just don't have the actitude to put into practice, what they know.

As for future realtionship boundaries, I haven't gotten that far in my thought process. I know it will be years before I am any good for someone else. I'll figure that out later if I will draw the line from the start, or if the line can be mobile. Funny thing is, on our 2nd date I told my STBX that if she ever cheated on me that I will never speak to her again. I have a history with cheating women (and I finally realize why). Her response was simply "Good.". Her Ex before me had cheated on her. And here we are 3 PAs and 2 EAs later. WTF happened?

She claims to understand what I'm going through, which she may to an extent. But I don't think she truly does...

Ok, I need some help on this...

I have prepared a letter for STBX's parents, summarizing what has/is happening. I know that she has not told them about the A's, nor that she has wanted to leave me. STBX and they don't have the closest of relationships (see first post). I've only met them twice.

What I'm trying to figure out is why I feel the need to let them know. Is it a "justice" thing? Am I trying to not let her "get away" with all of this?

I don't think her parents will even care, honestly. And I know STBX will just get upset that I've spilled the beans.

However, I did let them know that I want them to be a part of DS's life. Even though they don't make much attempt at that anyway (they're also 4K miles away).


P.S. This is not an attempt at exposure to restart a recovery.

geez, well at least she's compassionate. unbelievable waywards. I'd put that in the crazy wayward phrases thread. Please.

I wish I had some help for you on the informing to the parents. Trying to be really objective I think I'd look at it like an addiction/sickness and tell the parents out of concern. As much for her (you're not going to be around to babysit her and her lack of boundaries anymore pretty soon), as for your son who will be subjected to who knows what when you're not around as much.

Where it's not an exposure, it's definitely a tough question - interested to hear what others think, Itsa.
BTW I've been following along and I really feel for you. Nobody deserves what she's doing to you and your child. Time to make good on your promise (from 2nd date) to the best of your ability [plan B if you can, IMO...].

Opt
sorry to get upset but that quote above really burns my aZZZZZZZ.