AD,

You want advice? I'll offer you some. Decide what you want. You seem to think if you make the right offer your H will be "all over it" and out of there. It seems if he doesn't have to pay, he doesn't want to be married to you.

Is that really the case of is that wishful thinking on your part? All of this is unknown, but what should be known is YOUR DESIRE to be married. If you don't want this man, file for divorce. Who cares if he is mad? You don't. I sure don't, does anyone?

AD is it true you want him to do your "dirty" work and file? I wonder if that is true or you simply want some sort of test for him to take. Why not take the test yourself.

As for anyone everyone knowing about OC, it won't make a differce if you divorce unless it makes a difference to your child. But, the child should eventually know the parentage he/she is dealing with.

Ok, end of advice... FOR NOW

God Bless,

JL

Well, I suppose you could take my mockery, and remove the sarcasm...

"How do I find the motivation to get off my butt, and become engaged in my marriage?"

But... you already know the answer; the motivation is a better marriage.

The only constructive thing I can come up with is; MOVE!

Quit making excuses, quit doing nothing, and start doing SOMETHING, ANYTHING.

Get a plan, stick the flip to it!

You have the smarts, somewhere in there you have the desire... it just seems like you are waiting for something miraculous to do the work for you.

Ain't gonna happen.

People aren't responding, because every time they tell you to do something, every move they tell you to make, you respond with a reason why... well, why you just aren't going to do it.

Do you want help? Then take the damn help you are getting!

Is that "constructive" enough for you?

Quit freaking making excuses, get off your [censored], and work on your dang marriage.

AD, instead of asking for advice on what you should write, why don't you tell us what you are thinking about writing to DrH and we can help you tweak it.

JL~ I CARE if he's mad. If I thought a relatively amicable divorce was possible, I would've filed myself a long time ago. I realize no divorce is pretty, but I think if it was his idea, he wouldn't be quite so angry. Did you not read the part where he tried to slam my hand in the drawer the other night? If not for my quick reflexes, I would've been in an urgent care instead of watching the Super Bowl that night. That's just how hard he slammed a very heavy drawer shut.

HHH~ So in other words, you still got nothing on the letter I should write to Dr. Harley?

Scotland~ That's a good idea. I'm not sure where to start, or what my key question(s) should be. I agree, my question here was lame. I will have to come up with something better. Not sure what all I should include. It goes without saying the A and OC need to be discussed, but don't really know how to articulate the rest.

AD,

If you truly think he is violent and will hurt you, then go to a woman's shelter or your folks or something. You don't debate divorce in a violent situation, you remove yourself from it AND THEN you address the divorce.

You asked what to talk to the Harleys about. I can tell you that you should not start with "How do I make my husband do..."

Lay out your situation quickly and succinctly.
You lay out your feelings and your fears.
And then you ask for what you want: I want to save my marriage. Or I want to leave this marriage on the best terms possible.

You really have not said which it really is. I have spoken with you for many years now and feel like I know you a bit. But, the you that is posting now is different. Perhaps you are fed up, perhaps we are telling you what you don't want to hear, but what I do know is that I have not heard what I need to hear...your real goals.

I nor anyone else here can change history. We can help you with your future, but we need to know where you want to go in your future.

I will repeat this is NOT a marriage at all costs site. It is to help people addressing the very issues that are present in your marriage. Note the word HELP, not direct, not tell you what to do, but help you achieve what you want. IF it were to have an affair, then I have nothing to offer you. If it is to save the marriage then the Harley's for sure can help. IF it is divorce, even there I would do my best to help you, your child and yes your H to make this transisition as good as it could be.

But, I cannot read your mind, the Harleys cannot read your mind, your H cannot read your mind.

It is your call AD. Make the call.

God Bless,

JL

AD, it is likely your H wants no one to know about the A and OC because he feels ashamed and afraid of appearing as a cuckcold H. I get it in some ways because every time I have to explain the OC to people that run into me with him that didn't know I feel ashamed and embarassed.

Just ask Dr. H how to

1. get motivated in wanting to love your H
2. How to find that love again after so many years of just existing.

Be sure to give some background about your A, the OC and your H's insistance of keeping it a secret. All is relevent.

Is there still such a thing as the MB Weekend? I remember it being costly, but it's something I'd be interested in, and I think husband would be willing too. If they still do them, is there a link anywhere on the site?

It's now called the Online Programme because it does not require travelling to attend the seminar. The seminar and follow-up coaching are done online.

A link to the Online Programme is flashing at the bottom right of this page. Do have a look around - and then book it!

Sorry - "Online Program". Pesky American spellings!

Autumn,

I think the online program would be a great idea! Still use it as time to "get away" though ~ Book a hotel room, just as you would if you were doing the traditional MB Weekend Program - that way your focus will be all about the program and each other, and not on regular old household stuff. Make it positive - something to look forward to - fun and exciting...

Mrs. W

Yes, try the online program, and Mrs. W's idea of getting a hotel room is great!

As for right now, there are things you can do to start building love for your husband. Fake it 'til you make it is good advice. ACT loving toward your H whenever possible, and I think you will start feeling it. Baby steps are fine to start with. For instance, when you see him playing sweetly with your OC, stop and watch them for a few minutes...and ENJOY the fact that he loves her, and smile as lovingly as you can, even it it's just smiling at your DD. You don't have to say anything, but I bet your husband notices.

His making a kissing mouth was, I believe, an attempt to flirt with you...and yeah, you missed the mark. A smile from you would have gone a long way, I think.

Anytime he does something you wish he would do more often, smile and compliment. For instance, after he takes a shower, sniff the air and say something like, "Hmmm, you smell so nice!"

If you don't like the way he dresses, buy him something new! Just tell him that you thought it would look so good on him.

You don't have to do this all day long, because then it would seem fake to HIM. Just make the effort once in a while, and start cutting out any lovebusting behavior of yours. When you lovebust him, you are reinforcing your lack of love for him.

For your child's sake, try acting lovingly toward your husband, even if you don't want to do it! Don't you want HER to learn how to be a loving wife?

I just finished reading this entire thread - there's some pretty deep stuff here and I wonder if many are missing the mark.

A lot of what AD is saying resonates with me. The idea of "wanting" to fix it when the feelings or desire just aren't there. I have also been given the advice (which I do believe to be very good) of "feelings follow actions" and have tried. I guess more UA is needed, but sometimes I wonder if it will make a difference.

Is every marriage capable of becoming "loving" or is there a way to tell when 2 people just aren't compatible?

Do you like your BH? I don't think you can stay in a marriage unless you really like your spouse. Once you are sure you like them, then maybe you can work on the love part.

If two people aren't compatible, they wouldn't have gotten married, I don't think...

Just a thought.

I disagree. I think there are a lot of incompatible people who marry.

Or perhaps is "compatible anymore" a better way to ask it? Though I suspect the group here will say that using MB, a couple should always remain compatible or be able to become compatible again. And while I agree that that may be true for many, it is not true for all and I am curious whether there is a way to determine which group a couple falls in. It may only be after a long period of really trying all of MB, but at some point, there should be a way of knowing.

AutumnDay's marriage resonates with you because she represents just about every neglected marriage that shows up on Marriage Builders. WE WERE ALL INCOMPATIBLE. The couple has fallen out of love because they stopped doing the things that effect love. They behaved in ways that created incompatibility. Compatibility is something that is created, it does not happen by accident.

In your case, and in Autumn's, we know exactly WHY you are incompatible. It is because you neglected your marriage. And because you have fallen out of love, you aren't very motivated to try. But it can be regained. The only difference between your marriage and those of us who have happy, romantic marriages is that we used the program.

Feelings do follow actions. The Harleys have been able to turn around marriages where the couples actually hated each other, and they routinely turn around marriages where the couple is incompatible.

My suggestion? Find marriages here that are happy and recovered using these concepts and ask them how they did it. I find it interesting you are following marriages in trouble for an example, rather than marriages that have recovered. It is the ones who have recovered who can help you.

No, it doesn't make you "become compatible," it helps you overcome incompatibility.


Athena... both you and AD may have this in common, so the advice would go both ways, and it begins right here;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html


EVERYTHING about what this is begins right there. You can meet needs, you can be radically honest, you could never commit another love buster for the rest of your life, but if you do not get that time in, it doesn't matter.

Don't feel "in love" with your spouse? Don't ask if you are compatible, don't ask if you can "find love," don't ask any of that.

The first thing you should ask yourself if you feel any crisis point in your marriage should be; "Have I been spending enough time with my spouse?"

I'll bet 9 times out of 10 that if there is crisis, the answer is no.

3 hours a day minimum to build romantic love, or repair romantic love. 2 hours a day minimum to maintain romantic love.

It all begins right there. If you (aka; anybody who wants happiness) aren't doing it, if you aren't willing to do it, then quit wasting your time, and go back to the fog and chase prince charming... because if you think anything will work without it, you are wrong.


So, back to the OP;


AD, have you been meeting 20+ hours a week (3 hours every day) of UA time with your BH EVERY WEEK? E-V-E-R-Y W-E-E-K?

Do you spend that time meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs (conversation, affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment)?

Can I make a bet on what I think the answer will be?

I read Athena's thread... and I know what her answer is.

I know that I felt it over the past few weeks myself; not meeting that UA time DESTROYS that bond.

So, AD, if I still had my head up my rear, I would probably ask the same question; "How do I 'find' love for my wife?"

Um, by making sure we spend 20+ hours a week to build love or recover from crisis, and 15+ hours a week to maintain.

Your letter to Dr. Harley;


"Dear Dr. Harley,

How can I fall in love with my spouse, without meeting UA time?

- AD"


Answer; YOU DON'T.

I think one of my first posts on this thread was that love was not something you find, it's something you do. If you fail to do, then there will be no love.

If you want love, you have to do the work.

It doesn't matter if it's your husband, or a new man, the work is the same. So if you are unwilling to do the work, then get divorced, never date again and live alone.

The formula is the same regardless who your spouse is. The question is, are you going to throw away the investment you've already made, or will you continue to invest and invest the right things into building a marriage?

There really is no other question here. In my best Yoda voice, this is no try, it's either do or don't do, period.

Hi All,

Compatible???? I do think people can and do marry people they are not compatible with. I also think people change. I think MB is an approach that can develop ways to be compatible, but even Dr. Harley does not profess that it will make ALL marriages happy or save ALL marriage, just more than are failing now.

I have seen many people marry while in college only to find that when they got into "real" life they shared very little with regard to goals, interests, hobbies or even where they would like to life. College is a very artificial environment, where everyone has a lot in common: tests, courses, where they are, parties, etc. I don't think MB can or perhaps should fix all such marriages, but I also think people would be foolish not to try MB to see if deep down they share more than they realize.

My problem with AD is she won't really state what her goals are. I think she wants a divorce. I think she wants security. I think she wants to be loved. And I think she has no clue how to go about this within her marriage. Based on what she has posted about her H, he is just as clueless.

I am trying to remember way back with AD came here. If memory serves me correctly and AD can correct me, I strongly encouraged her to speak with her H in depth about the affair, the OC, and what she needed in her marriage. If I recall, he was not interested in such a conversation, but apparently harbored deep resentment for what had happened. His comment if I recall correctly was "he felt the OC would save their marriage." Perhaps the OC is the reason the marriage has made it so long. I don't have a clue.

What I am waiting for is AD to tell me/us what her goals really are and what she wants. She knows about MB, I don't think she is opposed to using it, but she apparently is dealing with a BS that doesn't want to face some very hard facts. His refusal has led to him building up a deep resentment toward AD. His treatment of her has led to her building up a deep resentment toward him.

Folks, it seems to to me the issue here isn't AD's willingness or unwillingness to use MB, but how do we help her to find a path were she could use it and feel safe. She is in a difficult place and I doubt a "frontal assault" on her H will lead to anything but defensive behavior from him. Which also means a "frontal assualt" on her here isn't going to help either. Time for all concerned to get clever.

Just thoughts folks, but I sure would like to hear some opinions and a response from AD.

God Bless,
JL

We've been doing some talking. Mostly fighting. He read this entire thread 2 weeks ago after finding it in my history. I knew he read it, because I found it in his history, as well. lol

I was glad he read it, and in fact way back on the 2nd night of this thread I was sitting right next to him on the bed freely typing away in front of him, and telling him he could read every word if he wanted to, but that night he said no, even though I could tell he was kind of looking out of the corner of his eye. I also urged him that night to join MB so he could tell his side of the story.

Ok, so back up a bit. Like I said he read this thread 2 weeks ago. I knew he did about 2 hours afterward, but I didn't tell him I knew, and he didn't tell me he did until we had a big confrontation 1 week ago today. In that confrontation we were trying to figure out what to do next. I told him I didn't love him, but knew I SHOULD love him, that it's the right thing to do. That I hadn't honored my vow to love and cherish him, and that I wanted to try to make things work again, based on that commitment before God, and because of our family, but couldn't promise I'd ever get there. I told him about the MB online program, and asked if he'd be interested in going away for a weekend to work it without distractions, but he was SO upset about what came out of my mouth on this thread. MOSTLY my list of grievances in one of my earliest posts, after Pep and possibly JL told me to just be honest with him, and I was like REALLY?.... tell him this, and this, and this of my laundry list??? Then Pep posted back to me about how to reword everything, because of course the way I brutally stated them on here would not go over well with him and would only be even more love busting.

He swore I said that he's a disgusting pig/slob in that post, and I was pretty sure I didn't say something quite that mean, so we argued over that point a bit, and I said let me look it up and show you. He said no that was alright, he was positive I called him a disgusting pig or slob, and he had the proof because he saved the thread. So, I never did pull the tread up last Sunday to look at my exact words. I did attempt to explain that I was trying to be radically honest- so you'd all know where I'm at, in order to give me the best help possible. He was so angry I said stuff like that about him to strangers, and of course worse yet that I could even think those things in the first place, and if I really felt that way, why don't I just leave? He had other comments about the thread too. One being that even a bunch of you guys think I'm all messed up and sound idiotic. I then asked him again- why doesn't he log on and start his own thread, because most people would clearly take his side. He said no, because he also severely disagreed with some of the posters- namely Melody for suggesting he quit his job... he said that lady is NUTS, (I'm sorry Mel, I had to laugh at that one, because you probably know more about MB than just about anyone else on this site, but he thinks you're out to lunch), Thirdly, he wasn't fond of the posters he perceived to diss the OC, by advising me that I should leave and take OC with me.

After the MB part of the argument we moved on to him telling me he spoke to one of those pro men/father divorce attorneys you hear advertising on the radio, and that guy told him his best bet was to somehow get me to leave the house right now, before a divorce.

We ended the argument on a quiet note, where I once again asked him about the MB online program/hotel stay for the weekend. He said he just couldn't give me an answer at this point.

Fast forward to our argument tonight. Again, he brought up the fact I called him a disgusting pig/slob, and I said I was sure I wasn't that derogatory, sooooooooo that's why I logged back on tonight for the first time in a week or so. To see exactly what I said. Anyway, what I said was that he physically grosses me out. I just showed it to him, and he said close enough to disgusting pig/slob- that it's all the same thing.

I KNOW that whole argument is just stupid, but I just thought I'd tell you why I'm back here posting tonight, even though I planned not to come back until there was either better or worse news to share, but I didn't expect to find 11 new posts, since I lasted posted.

As far as the compatible issue. My own opinion for what it's worth is that all people pretty much annoy each other, unless there's love. I think annoyances aren't quite so annoying when we love that person, and when we don't love, the annoyances seem even more annoying.

HHH~ Wow, even when I'm not posting, I'm irritating you.

20-30 hours per week? I thought it was 15 hours?

You were spot on though, HHH. I'd probably be overestimating if I said we averaged 20 minutes per day together. It's really only how ever long it takes to eat dinner each night-- 10 minutes tops?

He asked me tonight if I could financially support myself, if I'd be gone. I said yes. It was an honest answer. He neither liked or disliked the answer from what I could tell. Though, he does still say if I'm going to divorce, to leave the house right now, (like EE suggested a few posts back).

One of our young adult COM heard us arguing and came in the room, and told me I'm the one that needs to change. That I've always been the instigator, that dad is not perfect, but I'm the bad guy in this story, and that if we divorce, she will never come to see me. She said her only memory of her childhood is of us fighting, but that I'm the one who always raises my voice first and am more at fault. She said every time we fight that OC,(who she doesn't know is OC, as far as we know), always comes by her, and is very clingy until we're done arguing. This btw, is NOT the first time she's interjected herself into our arguments telling me it's more my fault. Usually what happens, is that her and my husband both start telling me all the things they don't like about and that I'm guilty of. He rarely tells her to leave the argument, but tonight he did, but before she left the argument- she said she had a 2 hour convo with the other adult com this week, and they both agreed I'm the bad guy that needs to change and that I need to get help, but dad does not.

I have a lot more fixing to do than just my marriage. I feel so hopeless right now. I feel like if I do everything to change, it won't make a difference, because all the damage with my kids and husband has been done, and nothing I could do can change or fix it. Plus, I feel like I have to be someone I am NOT in order to please them all. Not to mention, I think that even if I'm freakin' June Cleaver, it still won't fix things or make things better, but EVEN if it did work, and they all were happy with me again... I'd be miserable being someone I'm not, just to make them all happy.

Yes, I'm even more messed up than you all thought.

As my husband says, one of my number one problems is real life family and friend human relationships. Whereas with the real life people I know because of my political activism, as well as on the internet with people I've never met-- I'm Miss personality, who everyone likes, and is interested in my opinions being that I'm a prolific political blogger on fb, and have maxed out at 5,000 friends. Yet, when I look back on the origins of my political activism and my political blogging, it was because I bored the hell out him, and my kids with my interests whenever I tried to discuss my thoughts with them, and get them to engage in conversation. My H would always say he's heard all the stuff before on the news or whatever. So, now I don't bug him or my kids about my interests anymore, but they're pissed that I ignore them, have checked out and generally suck as a wife or mother! I feel like I "over-corrected"--- trying to find people who liked to discuss the same things I like to discuss, so as to not bore my family, and not have my feelings hurt that they didn't want to share in my interests, but now I spend more time with acquaintances, virtual strangers and my hobby.

Let the 2x4's commence....

I suspect the older children know or have strong suspicions about OC, and that is why they constantly tell you that the mess is your fault.

You think you've kept this knowledge from them, but I know that it is hard to keep secrets completely secret.