Well, at first I started to get an explanation "Well, I just stress over these things, and..."

To which I just restated; "I have noticed that it destroys my love for you, and because of that it just needs to stop."

The answer was "OK."

We'll see. She hadn't really engaged too much in this since before my implosion in 2008...

Since you're normally one of the ones that thumps me on the head when I have a pity party on my thread, I just thought I'd ask if you both were satisfied (POJA) with the resolution of that conversation.

Of course, if we were all independently wealthy that would help

I'll bet you need a vacation now after your Disneyland vacation. Our oldest wants to go (D-World in FL) because a friend of his did. Maybe next summer we'll break down and do it.

Well, North, she is enthusiastic about not doing things that destroy her LB$ balance.

See, what she does isn't like a PoJA discussion - it's a verbal OCD spew. This is how she explains it. FWW is very detail and plan oriented, and I am not.

NOT a bad thing or incompatibility, but when she gets going, it's like a mother hen.

What it feels like on my side, is a disrespectful judgment - that she thinks I am incapable of finding solutions.

It's not that I don't want her input, or value it. It's not that once I have some solutions, that I am going to NOT PoJA them, I just need the time to gather my data before the PoJA process can begin.

What I am least happy with, is not realizing how much it was affecting me until I had been driven well into the red.

However, sometimes that is the way these things go. We don't know how something effects our LB$ until a significant hit is taken.

Performance. Feedback. Revision.

Wow, your wife sounds like me and you sound like my wife.

Food for thought, then?

No, no...I thought the same thing. "It's a vacation for the kids". We went last Oct and I LOVED it. We stayed right on the resort so didn't have to worry about transportation, etc., that probably helped. Y'all (you guys) will love it. We are probably going again next year.


HHH, have you told your W how you feel when she does that when you are trying to POJA? Also do you and your W spend enough UA time together? Something you posted somewhere had me wondering about that...

I have to admit that #1 - I have quite a bit of OCD myself and #2 - I have very little practice using POJA with H. Maybe practicing POJA on smaller decisions of lesser consequence will help to refine technique. And if you need time to gather data before you can begin to POJA, just tell your W that. Set a time to come back together later - you'll have your data, and maybe in the meantime she can go through her "OCD spew" and pull out only the pertinent bits to avoid LB-ing you. I must process like she does - I like to talk everything out...H on the other hand would generally go to his financial calculators, consumer reports, etc on a fact finding mission first.

Funny I just had a meeting at work and I wanted to have a brainstorming session, which I thought would give everyone ownership in what we were trying to do (well, what my boss told me I needed to make happen). I didn't want to come down and say "This is how we're doing it, end of story." In reality I had several at the meeting who didn't care what we did, just wanted to get out of the meeting; one who agreed happily (at least outwardly, lol) to my suggestions; and one who was freaking out that there would be changes. Maybe I can practice POJA at work, ha!

And Disney is a blast. H and I went a few years ago with my parents and the kids to FL. We stayed at the military resort (Shades of Green) on Disney property, which is a super deal. Had a wonderful time! I'd love to take the girls back before they get too old to believe in the Disney magic, you know?

I like WPG's idea of setting a time to discuss it. I used to be bad about picking at my H and what we finally discovered was that the things I picked about were things that were causing me worry, fear, anxiety etc. It bothered my H when I nagged him or talked about the issue incessantly, but it bothered me that the issue hadn't been resolved in a way that lessened my feelings of anxiety. Since your wife said that she stresses over things it may be that she has similar concerns. It's good that you are being honest that her picking about the issue bothers you, but are you considering her feelings in this?

It was a difficult issue for us because he felt the same way you do, that my picking or trying to be helpful was my way of saying that I didnt trust him to handle things. He didnt feel the need to plan things...I do. His version of a plan was to tell me he would "deal with it, handle it, fix it", which left me wondering...how? How is it going to be ok? I needed more concrete solutions to feel safe.

Without a plan I feel very afraid and insecure. Maybe it's OCD and maybe it's just that I am a worrier but I need a plan. And maybe Plan B and C for backups. By not discussing things with me he was leaving me with these feelings of anxiety and it was hurtful to the love I felt for him.

Now if an issue like that comes up we set a time that is not too far off, maybe a week away, that we sit down and discuss the issue. I dont pick at him during that week, and it gives him time to think and whatever he needs to do. At that time he gives me his ideas and I give him feedback, we PoJA a plan, and because I worry we PoJA a backup plan too. He then keeps me informed every step of the way as things happen so that I know what is going on and what steps he is taking to fix the problem, that way I don't have to pick and I don't feel anxious because I am informed. I know what he is doing to handle the issue. That builds my trust in him, because I can see that he is working on fixing it and I dont have to take it on blind faith that he is doing something about it.

I'm glad that your wife is enthusiastic about avoiding things that hurt your feelings for her, but dont be so quick to brush off her explanation as an excuse. It could be that she was trying to tell you that her picking is a way of trying to get something from you that she is not getting. She may be handling it in the wrong way but that doesnt make the concern any less valid for her. When she said she stresses about things and that's why she picks at you, could you have responded with "The picking hurts my love for you, how can I help you to feel less stressed in some other way?"

I would have agreed to not nagging my H because it bothered him, but if he had not worked with me to find a way to handle my concerns in a more positive way my love for him would still have been slipping away each time my feelings of worry and concern did not get addressed.

You've been very helpful to me so I just wanted to add in my experiences in case it might be helpful. Could be that your wife doesnt feel the way I do at all, but it might be worth asking her about just in case.

Yeah, ladies. You have it pegged. For instance; packing and prepping for the trip, FWW has a written checklist for everything. For her, it helps her organize. I am more of a mental planner.

It is a stress/worry/anxiety thing for her, and how she handles and processes those emotions. It's not that I don't keep her in the loop, it's that she gets stuck in the loop.

We talked about it today, and she said that she wants to work on it, because when other people do the same thing to her, it bothers her as well.

As of this week, the work issue is resolved. It was/is a difficult issue because I needed to have schedule flexibility for school in June and July. At the end of August, new financial aid comes in, then I graduate in December.

I don't care for my schedule, but it helps that it is temporary.

Sounds good, HHH.

I noticed you didn't answer the Q about UA time.

POJA has been the hardest policy for us to implement. When we don't get enough UA time in and some tension starts to build between us, forget it...

In fact, this just happened to us last night, I tried to talk to him about something that was bothering me and it didn't get too far. After our date, I discussed it with him again and the conversation went much better. UA time(especially when it is OUTSIDE of the house) works like magic for us, seriously.

ps ~ great news on the light at the end of the tunnel for your schooling. I believe my H went to school for the same thing you are now and I know how stressful it is.

UA time has room for improvement. Usually do good.

It's fallen by the wayside due to my little job search and our upcoming vacation.

Sometimes UA time needs to be used for heavy lifting.. Marriage processing. If there is not enough UA time, I feel the pressure build, but when we get UA time I want it all to be wondeful. You know, a date with no children talk, marriage talk... heavy talk.

That's why you need 35 hours. A Marriage partnership needs some of those hours for parenting, resolving, planning etc. SO nothing is left on the back burner.
And plenty left over UA time just for FUN and Romantic Love.

New mantra.

Performance; Identifying and eliminating Love Busters. Identifying and meeting emotional needs.

Feedback; "I love it when..." "I'd love it if..."

Revision; eliminate newly identified Love Busters, meet emotional needs in the fashion identified, in descending order of importance.

Performance. Feedback. Revision.

Perfect! I'll tell you where the loop broke down in our pre-A M: feedback. H and I were performing left and right - performing LBs, hit-and-miss EN meeting...and then no feedback. From either of us.

My feedback was lousy - "I'm not happy." Waa waa...whine, nag, b*tch, moan. Absolutely no direction provided and complete vagueness on my part. H's feedback to me was completely nonexistent. I'd do something to annoy him and he'd shut down and escape to the garage to avoid me. Would we have done better if we'd known about MB and understood the concept of the LB$?

Actually, wrong question. If we'd known then about MB and the concept of the LB$, would we have implemented it successfully? Would both of us have desired to implement it?

He provided feedback during the first 4 months we tried to recover. I learned that he hated hearing me vent about work, for example. When I learned things that were LBs, I worked at eliminating them. H shut down again when he learned I'd been lying to him - I can't and don't blame him for that - but then feedback became nonexistent again and I struggled with trying to find the right, or best, ways to meet his ENs.

And I also became lousy at giving feedback once again, because of fear.

But feedback is the key...it's like never having a "performance review" at work. You're doing your job, going along and no one ever really says a lot to you, or gives you vague instructions and you do the best you can. Then all of a sudden, you're called into the boss's office and fired. "What did I do?" you cry. "You suck at doing your job," is the response. Conversely, if you have regular performance assessments, it helps you to refine your job skills and improve performance.

It takes desire and willingness from both parties, and a committment to being O&H, respectfully and without fear.

That's a lot of what I have to work on.

Big time case of "nice guy" syndrome, and in the process, a total lack of O&H in that process.

Doesn't work.

I have been struggling with the "nice guy" syndrome too.

Men ought to "take the hit" sometimes. IMO. Just accept her anger. Its different than a man's. Its a double standard, yeah! Damn right. But our angry must be different than hers. And there is so much that a man "just won't or shouldn't bother to say."

That being said, I feel its too easy to fall into that way of being too much. And the "nice guy" thing turns into doormat and turns into a pent up disgruntled unhappiness.

Gotta find your N.U.T.S and have backbone sometimes (avoid AO) but stand up! Its more attractive than doormat "nice guy"

Lots of talk on the No Gurls thread about "Nice Guy" syndrome.

You noticed?

It's one of the things I continue to struggle with. Starting simply with O&H seems like the easiest approach... but, I struggle when I think honesty might lead to an LB, or be unpleasant.

Interesting advice, but not MarriageBuilders advice. The MarriageBuilders point of view is simple: angry outbursts are emotional abuse. Period. They can also easily become physical abuse; someone who is acting out angrily is temporarily INSANE. You should remove yourself immediately from the situation in order to preserve Love Bank balances and yourself from injury.

This one hit me pretty hard today.

While many a musician has put to page and then song struggles of life and death, only a handful have put down their own definite struggle while they were on the losing end.

The second verse was written and performed by Anthony Ian Berkeley, who performed as Grym Reaper in the group Gravediggaz, and also as Poetic and/or Too Poetic. The verse is about discovering his liver and colon cancer, which took his life in 2001 at the age of 36.

[video:youtube][/video]

Did not wanna T/J Dad any more, so I'll do this in my own thread.


Thank you, Pep.

Kind of a "duh" moment here. In the weeks following ILYBINILWY I actually wrote FWW a letter every single day, and stashed it away in her pack of cigarettes for her to find later in the day. Since she quit smoking... that strategy won't work!

>.<

The biggest struggle is that I am sooooo past those angry meltdowns. And not just because of the LB$ withdrawals, but because the whole thing is just NOT who I am, not who I ever was, and not who I want to be.

I'm not afraid of telling her I hurt, or that I'm angry, I'm afraid of her digging... because they "why" of it all is so much harder.


No, letting it out is it. Setting it aside I have mastered to a fault.

It's been a rough week.

Disneyland was awesome for the kids, and I enjoyed watching them ooh and ah - DD13 was terrified of the big coaster at California Adventure, and I took her on it. She went from terror to "THIS IS AWESOME!!!!" midway through the first big drop - and the loop went by without notice.

But, I just wasn't in a place where running 8 hours a day with the kids and grandparents, and having absolutely no time with FWW was any good for me.

Then, I got off the plane and had to go straight back to work on Thursday and Friday night. Saturday morning we went yard-saleing, and got new tires for FWW's car. We were going to go have dinner and a movie, but then I got a bad stomach flu, and was down for 2 1/2 days, then back to work.

I'm in a low, crappy place and it's bleeding into my dreams... bad bad juju.

Ack.

...keep going.