Well, if the only criteria we're using for not meeting an EN is that it's too difficult for us to meet it, then a lot of EN's aren't going to be met.

It's difficult for me to meet my H's EN's for SF and A. I don't have much of a sex drive anymore after 5 kids and a slew of related physical issues. I don't want it and I don't really care about it. It would certainly be difficult for me to attempt to "learn" how to have a high sex drive and adequately meet that need. Same for A. I am not at all a naturally affectionate person. I never have been. My mother tells me I couldn't stand to be held when I was a baby. I never liked people touching me. I've been this way my entire life. It's very uncomfortable for me to be touched. My H is hugely A. It's difficult for me to meet that need. Does that mean I don't have to try, simply because I am not naturally affectionate and probably never will be?

No one would ever say it was okay not to meet one of your spouse's top EN's if they were anything other than Ambition. So, if someone has the need to see ambition (passion, whatever you want to call it) in their spouse, why should they be told they're just going to have to live without it since that's too difficult for their spouse to do? Some of my H's EN's are just as difficult and unnatural (for me) to meet, but I'm still expected to move out of my comfort zone and meet them.

Just a thinking-as-I-type thought in response to writer's post:

What is ambition? Is it having a rocking professional career? Is it setting out to be the consummate whatever - competitively better than your contemporaries? Is it confused with being productive - not wasting time, etc.?

Was it HHH earlier who said that what's important to some people as far as how they live their life (like having the time to enjoy) is different for someone else? I tend to agree w/ the camp that wishing our spouse had ambition is a DJ, and when ambition is used in that context, I think it takes on a different nature than the standard EN.

In your example, writer, you step out of your comfort zone to give something to your spouse - SF, A. You could think about it along the lines of a discrete commodity, (and I know much issue can be taken w/ that - just go w/ it for now, please! I'm thinking this through as I type.)

Ambition, though, seems to me to be a horse of a different color. It's not a simple give and take. When wishing ambition on another person, I think it tends to be a "here's what you should do w/ your entire life" kind of thing, or a "this is how you should live your life" kind of judgment. Ambition then isn't something you simply hand over, so to speak, to your spouse - it's way beyond that.

I'm not articulating this well. I'll think on it some more and see if I can't do a better job. Or perhaps I'm just entirely off-base, and I would welcome correction!

Also: I don't think this does anything to clear up the original idea for this thread, just thinking out loud.

Exactly, you don't have to become high drive yourself for either affection or sf, you just have to listen to your spouse and find ways to meet THEIR need. Asking your spouse to become an ambitious person is a different thing than working with them to POJA certain behaviours so that they could find a way to make you happy.

Actually, it's not as different as you think. Ambition certainly involves a set of actions, and a change in mindset is certainly involved in showing affection when one isn't a naturally affectionate person or even necessarily comfortable with displays of affection.

I grew up in a family where literally no one ever touched each other. I can count on one hand the number of times I can remember my mother hugging me. Being married to a man who has a high need for affection hasn't just required me to adapt to a new set of actions, it has required me to completely change my way of thinking about affection.

Thanks for your correction, HHH.


That's incorrect. I have not debated the risk in this thread.

I won't debate that point because I freely admit I don't know whether it's a worthwhile endeavor for an unambitious person to better attempt to meet a spouse's EN for ambition.

My initial thought was that it should be attempted, but I'll rely on experts like Dr. Harley to advise us based on research and experience.

As you and others point out, Dr. Harley recommended focusing instead on meeting a spouse's other top ENs because it's more effective.

That's enough for me. I'll take his word for it.

What I did say was that I realized ambition is a top EN for me, and I'm thankful my husband meets this need well. I was happy to read this thread and Dr. Harley's very brief comments about ambition because I thought to myself "yeah, this makes perfect sense; my H's ambition does make positive deposits in my love bank and has from day one." (<-- I honestly used that lingo in my inner dialogue. ha. MB dork.)

What was debated was whether ambition can be taught. I think it can, you said it can't but now say it can. We both agree with Dr. Harley that it's a challenge.

What was debated was the positive and negative aspects of ambition. People have different views about this. I believe there are many positive aspects to ambition while others view ambition quite negatively.

What was debated was whether coaches, parents, teachers, motivational speakers, counselors, pastors and volunteer coordinators "rely on the sales of snake oil and placebos." I thought that was a rude, insulting and inaccurate blanket statement because, like Dr. Harley, there are many highly-educated experts in each of these categories who offer their expertise based on years of research and experience. You're the one who lumped these professionals together in a very negative way, not me; and yes, Dr. Harley is a coach, a counselor and a motivational speaker.


Because you said:


First, who said the spouse has to do the teaching?

Second, we have to be taught a lot of things. Dr. Harley and others teach us. We learn "How To ____ " (fill in the blank) about all sorts of concepts, including meeting ENs.

Out of curiosity, what are some other ENs Dr. Harley has discussed that aren't listed in his top 10?

Hey, writer, I hope you do email Joyce about this.

Dr. Harley's comments on the radio program about ambition were very brief, only a couple lines.

I bet he'll have much more wisdom and insight to share with you on this topic.

Perhaps he'll even guide you about how you and your H can discuss/POJA your need for ambition as well as your desire for more fulfilling conversation.

I have this inkling he won't simply tell you to ignore your need, yet I don't want to say something that conflicts with Dr. Harley's advice that your H should focus on your other top ENs.

My question is did y'all marry your spouse knowing they weren't ambitious and then expect them to become ambitious?

It might be going out on a limb to say so, but I would say even suggesting to your spouse that they need some edumacatin is a DJ. Even if you are gonna have someone else or something else do the dirty work.

What we here have learned, we have learned because we were willing to, not because our spouses told us to (well... a lot of us, anyway).

For instance; my W isn't nearly as active as I am here, and doesn't explore it half as much. She got the basics and just plans on living it. For now, that works for her, and I am not going to push for anything else. We at least have a common language now.

Well, my H and I were quite young when we got married (he was 24 and I was 22), but he definitely seemed more ambitious back then. He used to have lots of dreams and aspirations. Actually, he still does. The problem is, 17 years later, he isn't much closer to realizing them. He's been at the same dead end job for more than 10 years. No promotions, only cost-of-living increases in pay. He still talks about all the things he wants to do someday, but we aren't getting any younger. I would like to see some steps being made to accomplish all those goals he professes to having.

Right there in a nutshell is your honest thought.

Have you discussed this thought with your H in depth, and if so, how do the conversations go?

Dr. Harley advises us to be radically honest about sharing our thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. (P of RH #4 - Future Honesty)

I'll leave it up to Dr. Harley to share his wisdom, but my guess is that he would not advise you to bottle up your thought/need solely because it has to do with desiring your husband to have more ambition, whether it be about his career or another part of life.


Those adjustments can be forced or imposed in the form of disrespectful judgments or selfish demands.

But they don't have to be.

Instead, they can be discussed lovingly through thoughtful requests and respectful persuasion. Dr. Harley tells us that these are positive and important tools to have in a marriage.



By the way, writer, I understand why Dr. Harley says ambition is its own unique EN because your desire/need really doesn't fall into one of the 10 top ENs. Also, I see all of our ambition levels fluctuating throughout life rather than being stagnant, whether it's our ambition about our careers, families, sports, hobbies, chores, health, etc.

I don't think having any EN is a disrespectful judgement, but rather, how you go about explaining it to your spouse. Honestly, I can't see how anything could be worse than having to tell your spouse that you have an EN for attractive spouse. How do you say that without telling them they are ugly?

Between us, my WXH and I had an aweful lot of unmet ENs, with my EN for ambition being just one. Yet, it never cause the fights that everything else did (FS, A, SF etc.). I can recall becoming aware of it - I didn't know MB and I wouldn't have defined it as an "EN" but I realized that it was something I needed him to have. He used to play the lottery. Once, I asked him one time what he would do with his winnings. He struggled to come up with an answer. I asked him if he just wanted a pile of money to roll around in, or if he actually had some ambition that he wanted to fulfill - like a vacation or an early retirement or even paying off the house. Finally, he said he might redo the basement, but I'm sure this answer came because I was pushing for one. Honestly, he didn't want anything at all. He didn't want to do anything. He didn't want to have anything. He didn't want to be anything. Absolutely nothing.

There were many times when we discussed the future. Always I was the one to bring it up. I would try to get ideas out of him; try to get him to talk about how our lives would change when DS grew up and moved out; try to get him to talk about things we can save up for etc., etc. None of these discussions ever resulted in fights so I don't believe I DJ'd him. I'm sure I could have communicated better if I had understood what an EN was. He knew I wanted him to be more ambitious, but he didn't know that meeting ENs can fill the love bank. I'm pretty sure if I had MB back then, ambition would have been one of the easier ENs to tackle.

I do find it a little unfair that people are suggesting that an EN of ambition is akin to a DJ. I really don't think it's so, especially having struggled with it. I certainly can't see how it's any worse as most of the others could easily become DJs.

I may start a thread about this but I had a realization this weekend about EN's and respect.

We can aruge back and forth if something is an EN or if we are DJing someone who doesn't think like us but I think, for me anyway, there are just certain things I am realizing I NEED in order to have respect and more than just caring love for that person.

I think we have all touched on this with ambition and Cemar's thread about sexual desire. I am not so sure there actually is an answer. You can certainly try the "feelings follow actions" thing but what if it just doesn't happen.

My specific need is Family Commitment or support or however it is worded. I am realizing that my H just really has very little interest in his children and I don't really respect it.

I used to believe that I shielded him from the bad aspects (sick kids, tedious lessons etc.) Over the past two years, I have refrained from doing that. He is spending more time with them but, left to his own devices, it goes by the wayside. It isn't his first, second or even third priority....and no being with me isn't either.

This weekend, each kid had a different endeavor...he knew that our son's activity would not be something he could not endure so he asked me to do it (even though I was one of 3 women). That left him with our daughter doing an activity he enjoys...only he only spent about 1/2 hour with her....the rest of the time, he was off being irreplaceable to people he works with...

This is only one example. He is less than enthusiastic about vacations but never proposes any alternatives...

I think he really tries but the desire just isn't there and I don't think it can be.

Just like Cemar's wife and the desire...she could have sex often and still not like it....I thought it would get better the more time he spent with them but it just doesn't....more excuses and avoidance.

I know I can't MAKE him feel a certain way and I have to meet him where he is at but I don't know if I can feel passion for that.

I see nothing wrong with sitting on the porch drinking lemondade...that just isn't someone I would want to be with long term.

There is no right or wrong, it just is.

Hey Sunnydaze, I understand you completely. However, if your H could understand how important it is to you and for your marriage to provide more FC/S and actually DID it, how would that make you feel? Especially knowing that it isn't his priority?

I can fully understand someone not wanting to do things that would comprise the fulfilment of certain ENs. I hate to do the dishes and clean the bathroom, for example, but if I knew doing them would contribute to a happier marriage, I would be more motivated to do them.

I understand what you mean about lack of desire.

It made me think of my own lack of desire and interest in the Domestic Support area, one my H's ENs. I have a lot less excitement than I once had to prepare great meals and clean/organize the house. I was really into it before ... now, not so much. I still do it (therefore my H hasn't had reason to complain), but I do it with less vigor and frankly, with less care and love and passion.

I do think I could be motivated to become passionate once again about "house stuff," but I admit that I haven't made that a priority.

And I think that's the key.

I think that if we truly make our spouse's top ENs a priority, we will seek ways to become more motivated. I really do think our desire and passion will improve.

So, perhaps it's a matter of priorities for your H regarding FC.

I see now that Tabby and I think alike on this.

He would and does do that FOR me. I guess what I am having a hard time with is that there are certain things that I am passionate about and I have a hard time being in an intimate relationship with someone that is not.

For instance, I have a friend without children. We have many other things in common and share them together. I don't overdicuss my kids and she shows a passing interest because it intests me as I do with her "things" that I don't participate in. The difference is, we see each other periodically and talk on the phone occassionally. I am not IN LOVE with her. I don't think I could have an intimate relationship with her (ignoring the obvious)

While appreciate when my DH does something FOR me, I can't feel in love with him when he doesn't share my enthusiasm for OUR children. It isn't like watching me play a sport or reading a book I like just so he can discuss it with me.

I am discussing kids but it could be anything really...even the cleanliness of your house. If you are absolutely fasituous about cleanliness than living with someone who wasn't may just be impossible.

I don't even necessarily need equal. I realize that I carried them and nursed them and all that. I guess what I need is when there is something to be done with the children...not feeling like he is completing a chore for me.

I think maybe if I was involved with a man and they weren't HIS children I would feel special that he was making them a priority FOR me and it isn't fair to my husband that I don't feel that way about him. On the flip side, however, I don't think I could date a man with kids who wasn't enthusiastic about spending time with them...with or without me.

I know this is patently unfair. It is just how I feel.

Your feelings are not unfair. They are honest.

You're craving your H's involvement in enthusiastically caring for and molding your children. His neglect in this area has you frustrated.

I understand you want him to desire more involvement, but what has he done to show you that this involvement is a high priority for him?

In other words, has he appeared less than jubilant sometimes about caring for the kids yet still made it a top priority?

This exactly sums up how I feel about the subject. Right or wrong, I'm having a very difficult time finding that intimate feeling for my H because he isn't passionate about the things that I find vitally important (or passionate about much of anything, really).

Maybe it isn't fair, but it's how I feel. I don't know how to stop feeling that something is important to me just because other people say it shouldn't be. Fine, maybe it shouldn't be important, but it still is. The need is still there, and it isn't being met, and it is affecting my romantic feelings for my H, and I don't know what to do about it.

Alarm! ALARM!

Sacrifice is not good!

It is entirely possible one of your spouse's ENs is met by doing something you hate, and doing something you hate will DESTROY your love for your spouse if you do it "for your spouse." That is the essence of sacrifice.