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Originally Posted by kerala
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by Mulan
Son: I am afraid Mom will stop loving me.

Mom: Oh, son, you are a very very bright kid and I just can't help but feel that you are saying catch phrases that you've heard at times.

It doesn't matter whether you said this out loud or not. Believe me, he heard you and he got the message.

Ok, I don't know how you think you can know this. I am NOT giving off the vibe I don't believe him and as far as I know his brightness doesn't extend to mind reading.

I'm sorry, but you are not really in a position to say this. This is about the vibe your son is perceiving that you give off. I think what some people are saying is that even on a disembodied message board, we are getting that vibe too.

Think on that a bit.

I am in a position to know what I say to my son and how I FEEL about my son. How I live my life. I have been the parent there for him since day one. My ENTIRE life for the last 11 plus years has been for him.


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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by kerala
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by Mulan
Son: I am afraid Mom will stop loving me.

Mom: Oh, son, you are a very very bright kid and I just can't help but feel that you are saying catch phrases that you've heard at times.

It doesn't matter whether you said this out loud or not. Believe me, he heard you and he got the message.

Ok, I don't know how you think you can know this. I am NOT giving off the vibe I don't believe him and as far as I know his brightness doesn't extend to mind reading.

I'm sorry, but you are not really in a position to say this. This is about the vibe your son is perceiving that you give off. I think what some people are saying is that even on a disembodied message board, we are getting that vibe too.

Think on that a bit.

I am in a position to know what I say to my son and how I FEEL about my son. How I live my life. I have been the parent there for him since day one. My ENTIRE life for the last 11 plus years has been for him.

I don't think anyone is questioning what you feel. Some of us are saying that what you feel is not the point in terms of the vibe you seem to be giving off.

Consider your defensiveness. Can you really afford to indulge in that right now? Your son is in crisis.

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Originally Posted by kerala
I don't think anyone is questioning what you feel. Some of us are saying that what you feel is not the point in terms of the vibe you seem to be giving off.

Consider your defensiveness. Can you really afford to indulge in that right now? Your son is in crisis.

It is very hard to think I've done everything for my son and yet he is feeling I don't love him.

I have the first counselor appt set for about a week from now. He only sees me the first time. So hopefully he can shed some light on what I should be doing.

I do thank you all for your comments.

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(((SW)))

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Do you not think there are kids who just say dramatic things? That they really DON'T mean what they say? That they are just trying out phrases. I remember I was that way. I was one of those dramatic kids who made sweeping statements and gestures that really didn't apply to my feelings or the reality of what I was living. I think I just wanted attention.

I believe so on kids who say dramatic things. That being said, children who do that have an unmet emotional need - typically for validation. Children don't have the skill of "intention" developed. Instead, their behavior is driven purely by emotional need.

I could only relate having the feeling of being an accessory in my mother's life, rather than her child. It wasn't what she said to me that made me doubt her love and caring for me. It's the feeling I got from what she did, how she talked about me when she didn't know I was around that unnerved me and invalidated her words. Partly that and partly because there was SOOOO much unmet emotional need from my relationship with my father that I needed more than my mother could deliver.

I have no idea how your son gets ideas of being unloved. being the mother of an only son gives me complete compassion for your situation because his well being and happiness are always on my mind.

You only have a few more years of influence on your son - maybe two - before peers will reinforce what he believes about himself. He sees himself in competition with your new husband for your love. He believes love is finite, no matter what you say, because his dad ran out of love for him a long time ago - at least in the currency your son needs from him in order to know he is loved. Every time your X belittles him it takes a piece out of him.

It's up to you to make sure he learns how to have an internal reference for validation - that he is precious because he knows he's precious, not because anyone tells him so. because if he's dependent on someone outside of himself to know that, he's vulnerable to the opinions of others for his sense of worth.

That's why you are so smart in getting him to a therapist really quick. And you learning how to remove the element of competition - that for healthy people, love is infinite - your ability to communicate this to him in everything you do will help him as well.

Make sure that even the hint of a vibe that you think his behavior doesn't fit the need is gone. He's dramatic because he's learned that this is what it takes to get that emotional need met. He'll learn to dial down the drama when he sees himself getting what he needs without it.


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The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Ty ka. Very helpful.

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SW - Initiate the counseling and be careful not to lead. Tell them that you just want some help making sure this behavior is normal and that you or your ex aren't doing or saying anything that could be part of the problem.

You're doing what you can. I think maybe your son senses that some of situation is out of the hands of the one person he always previously felt safe with - you.

I may have missed it, but have you determined if he even HAS to see his father legally or at what age it will then be up to him?


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Originally Posted by Soolee
SW - Initiate the counseling and be careful not to lead. Tell them that you just want some help making sure this behavior is normal and that you or your ex aren't doing or saying anything that could be part of the problem.

You're doing what you can. I think maybe your son senses that some of situation is out of the hands of the one person he always previously felt safe with - you.

I may have missed it, but have you determined if he even HAS to see his father legally or at what age it will then be up to him?

Thanks for guiding me on how to present to counselor....I was thinking it would be difficult to condense all the issues. I guess I will just present that he hits himself and is showing more aggression in general and then let the counselor ask questions.

I haven't consulted my attorney about whether or not ds HAS to go see his father.....the thing is ds tells me he WANTS to see his father, but he just wants to be allowed to skip if he wants. From all I can tell about visitation, at age 11, he doesn't generally get to pick and choose in that way.

And I totally agree that he knows some things are out of my hands. I was one of the reasons I stayed with his father as long as I did...I wanted to avoid these exact things.

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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
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Do you not think there are kids who just say dramatic things? That they really DON'T mean what they say? That they are just trying out phrases. I remember I was that way. I was one of those dramatic kids who made sweeping statements and gestures that really didn't apply to my feelings or the reality of what I was living. I think I just wanted attention.

I believe so on kids who say dramatic things. That being said, children who do that have an unmet emotional need - typically for validation. Children don't have the skill of "intention" developed. Instead, their behavior is driven purely by emotional need.

I could only relate having the feeling of being an accessory in my mother's life, rather than her child. It wasn't what she said to me that made me doubt her love and caring for me. It's the feeling I got from what she did, how she talked about me when she didn't know I was around that unnerved me and invalidated her words. Partly that and partly because there was SOOOO much unmet emotional need from my relationship with my father that I needed more than my mother could deliver.


This would have been true of me too....Total lack of relationship with my father.

He does need constant validation. Which I suppose means he isn't getting enough. Every correction given to him--regardless of the tone or my mood or whatever he protests loudly. Lots of growling, slinging body around, saying things like, 'I can never do anything right!' For instance last night at bedtime....I was about to tuck him in and saw that he had left trash all over his counter. So I called him in to clean it up. He does but growls....slings himself around hatefully. We go into his room where clothes are on the floor. I ask him to take them to his hamper. Same reaction. So I pointed out to him that he gets REALLY upset over every direction and correction. He said he can't do anything right. He cried alot while I tried to reassure him. I laid down with him until he went to sleep.

I went to my bed and cried. Dh told me that I DO commend ds a lot. I FEEL like I do. But all ds FEELS is the correction. And it doesn't matter how mild the correction or how lovingly I say it to him. And it will be over house rules I've repeated 1000 times....so it isn't like he doesn't KNOW the rules. Things like, 'no eating outside the kitchen, no clothes on floor, don't leave trash--wrappers and stuff--out. Take your dishes to the sink/dishwasher as you leave the table. Normal guidelines.

Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
You only have a few more years of influence on your son - maybe two - before peers will reinforce what he believes about himself. He sees himself in competition with your new husband for your love.


He is terribly jealous of dh. Last night I called him in to watch a show with us that I know ds likes. We were all three on the sofa--I was between them. Ds was practically on top of me, snuggling with me. I took my free hand and was rubbing dh's sore neck....ds pulls that entire arm off of dh and puts it on himself. That kind of stuff.


Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
That's why you are so smart in getting him to a therapist really quick. And you learning how to remove the element of competition - that for healthy people, love is infinite - your ability to communicate this to him in everything you do will help him as well.

HOW do I communicate to him that love is infinite? That it is multiplied not divided? That we all have different kinds of love for the different people in our lives? He already has the majority of my time and attention. And he isn't ignored just because dh walks in the door.


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I would talk with the therapist that one of the things you expect him/her to work on with your son is emotional containment - not stuffing but finding his words.

One thing that helped with my son on the protesting was scripture. I pulled out the New Testament where Jesus teaches, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14: 15). I love the whole book of John - the language of it. Chapter 15 is a lesson in abiding in love.

So we'd study that passage together (son started reading scriptures with me when he was 6), I asked him how we show God love - obedience. So when he'd protest, I'd just quietly ask, instead of getting into a power struggle - son - do you love me? How do you show that you love me?

You'll find opportunities to talk with your son about infinite love being a factor of maturity and being closer to God. When we disobey, we become more selfish and unloving toward others. You won't have to point a finger at your X but son will be able to connect the dots that when people do selfish things, their capacity to love is diminished. When they do unselfish things they can become infinite in their ability to love.



Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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HOW do I communicate to him that love is infinite? That it is multiplied not divided? That we all have different kinds of love for the different people in our lives? He already has the majority of my time and attention. And he isn't ignored just because dh walks in the door.

More thoughts on this. It's time to teach your son a new lesson. I taught my son fairly early about the emotional bank account. He was two when I read my first Harley book and I read Stephen R Covey's Seven Habits three or four years before son was born, so I was well versed in the concept of emotional bank accounts.

Be careful to teach this as an emotional needs bank account rather than "love bank" account. Since you're wanting to teach him that love can be infinite and multiplied.

My son made this lesson fairly easy because from the first time he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up, even as early as four years old, he wanted to be a daddy. He didn't see the world from a place of doing, but being.

So when I taught him about the emotional needs bank account, it gave him some words to express his feelings. More words = less acting out.

We'd make a funny sound when there was a deposit or withdrawal to signal a noticeable change in the account. Cha-Ching! when someone made a deposit; a kerplunk! when someone made a withdrawal. Sometimes the kerplunks got kind of loud. But the sound was a signal to pause and become aware of your impact on the other person.

Your son needs to develop the skill of empathy NOW. If you were to say Kerplunk! to him, would he have the capacity or skill to say "I'm sorry"?

When he does something selfish, he needs to be taught that this isn't okay. When he does something unselfish, he needs praise and appreciation.

I'm sorry you've been getting thrashed over your mothering skills. Your son is not a baby. And while his life has been turned upside down and scrambled, it's still HIS life and his reality. Teaching him that someone will compensate for those bad situations won't teach him the resiliency that he needs to not grow into his father!

Teaching him to breathe; to calm himself, to find his words and be courageous enough to speak those words openly and honestly to the person needing to hear them is a tough skill to go through life without.

Then find the happiness and joy that's in the current situation.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
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HOW do I communicate to him that love is infinite? That it is multiplied not divided? That we all have different kinds of love for the different people in our lives? He already has the majority of my time and attention. And he isn't ignored just because dh walks in the door.

More thoughts on this. It's time to teach your son a new lesson. I taught my son fairly early about the emotional bank account. He was two when I read my first Harley book and I read Stephen R Covey's Seven Habits three or four years before son was born, so I was well versed in the concept of emotional bank accounts.

Be careful to teach this as an emotional needs bank account rather than "love bank" account. Since you're wanting to teach him that love can be infinite and multiplied.

My son made this lesson fairly easy because from the first time he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up, even as early as four years old, he wanted to be a daddy. He didn't see the world from a place of doing, but being.

So when I taught him about the emotional needs bank account, it gave him some words to express his feelings. More words = less acting out.

We'd make a funny sound when there was a deposit or withdrawal to signal a noticeable change in the account. Cha-Ching! when someone made a deposit; a kerplunk! when someone made a withdrawal. Sometimes the kerplunks got kind of loud. But the sound was a signal to pause and become aware of your impact on the other person.

Your son needs to develop the skill of empathy NOW. If you were to say Kerplunk! to him, would he have the capacity or skill to say "I'm sorry"?

When he does something selfish, he needs to be taught that this isn't okay. When he does something unselfish, he needs praise and appreciation.

I'm sorry you've been getting thrashed over your mothering skills. Your son is not a baby. And while his life has been turned upside down and scrambled, it's still HIS life and his reality. Teaching him that someone will compensate for those bad situations won't teach him the resiliency that he needs to not grow into his father!

Teaching him to breathe; to calm himself, to find his words and be courageous enough to speak those words openly and honestly to the person needing to hear them is a tough skill to go through life without.

Then find the happiness and joy that's in the current situation.

Thank you for the practical suggestions. I like that.

He has had a problem with scale for a long time. LOOOONG before the seperation/divorce/remarriage. I have talked to him about scale...we've role played, discussed possible scenarios---say comparing his dog dying to losing on a video game. Asking him to see that those things aren't the same on an emotional reaction scale. I have never tried to get him to stuff his emotions. I have worked VERY hard trying to get him to use words and appropriate levels of reaction for the situation.

So I've tried many things. I admit I get VERY frustrated. I yell at times. But I try very very hard to be calm, kind and loving and to apologize when I lose my temper.

He apologizes. A lot. He acts devastated and yet angry though. Whining, 'I'm soooooorrrryyyy.' Just now he sat down near me to do his piano and there was a stack of papers in his way. He takes them and sets them on top of my hands which are typing. I removed the papers. I said, 'You put those right on top of my hands. Was that polite?' He lowers his head....'nooooo.' Sheesh. I let it go, but that is the kind of thing he does.

We do a lot of Bible reading in this house too. I read over with him a chapter the other night in a book designed for young people about handling one's emotions.

I will just keep working on it. I appreciate being able to vent and ask for help.

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An example of his neediness....I just walked by him where he was on the sofa...I had an arm full of clothes out of the dryer that I was about to put down on the love seat and fold. As I walked by he reaches up for a hug. I said, 'I can't hug you while I have an armload of clothes.' He said, 'yes you can! If you love me you can!' (this was pretty lighthearted). I said, 'oh really? Is that the test for if I Love you? If I stop and hug you with my arms full of clothes?' He says, 'Yes! Ok, if you hug me within 10 seconds it means you love me!' Then he begins an actual countdown,...when he got to 5 he says, 'hurry!' So I went over and hugged him.

He was happy. But he exhausts me at times.

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My needful, wonderful, lovely, dramatic, and sometimes whiney (though not self-harming daughter) who HATES when I even FROWN in her general direction, seems to do much better with any sort of correction when I find a way to be funny about it.

Of course, funny sometimes disappears just when you need it most. And I'm not suggesting this last incident was funny--just pointing out that maybe you can help him to laugh a little bit more sometimes, kwim?

Like with the paper on the hands: "Aack! It's raining paper! Somebody help me, I've lost my hands!" To which he may have giggled and removed them.

Onlies and first-born carry a burden sometimes... Life can feel SO DARN SERIOUS.


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I'm with Telly, that lighthearted stuff like with the laundry stuff is great practice. SW, your son has been through a lot, and it's taking him time to adjust. The stuff at his Dad's house isn't helping him learn how to de-escalate at the moment. But you are teaching him this through humor and lightheartedness.

If I understand correctly, DS had his friend over when this happened? I would think in general he wouldn't act out in front of other kids. Is he gifted? Sometimes those kids just lack social skills because with their smarts they don't need to rely on others the same way other kids do. But they usually pick it up in time.

I understand the embarrassment you may feel. Don't kick yourself for feeling that, just let it pass. You've always put what's best for your son over appearances.


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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I'm with Telly, that lighthearted stuff like with the laundry stuff is great practice. SW, your son has been through a lot, and it's taking him time to adjust. The stuff at his Dad's house isn't helping him learn how to de-escalate at the moment. But you are teaching him this through humor and lightheartedness.

If I understand correctly, DS had his friend over when this happened? I would think in general he wouldn't act out in front of other kids. Is he gifted? Sometimes those kids just lack social skills because with their smarts they don't need to rely on others the same way other kids do. But they usually pick it up in time.

I understand the embarrassment you may feel. Don't kick yourself for feeling that, just let it pass. You've always put what's best for your son over appearances.

Are you asking was his friend over when he stabbed/scraped himself with the pencil? Yes. That was a week ago. And the FRIEND was pushing some of ds's buttons and that was part of what lead to the melt down.

Is he gifted? Possibly. He's never been tested---but I've wondered for many years if he might be. At the least he is very very bright and he 'sees' things other kids his age miss. The big picture. And it depresses him. Remember in Little Man Tate how he would see the 'world coming to an end' news and get so upset? That is how ds is. He was about 7 when he figured out his dog would most likely be dead before he was a teenager.

Things were nice this weekend....My step sons were here and everyone had a good time. After they went home last night ds watched some tv...and we had friends over with their 4 year old. He played/teased her and was having fun. Even when he was watching tv he would come in and tell us things he was watching---engaging with us. Then the friends left and I told him, 'bedtime' and he melted down. Saying things like, 'The day is over too soon! Now I just have to go to sleep get up and do it all over again.' Isn't he too young to be saying things like that? I tried to reassure him, but he was in a mood where he had a negative response for everything I offered. It gets exasperating. And of course I'm tired as well. He doesn't want to sleep alone...begs me to stay with him. Tells me he is 'so lonely' in the bed alone at night.

Hoping for a good day though.


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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
He played/teased her and was having fun. Even when he was watching tv he would come in and tell us things he was watching---engaging with us. Then the friends left and I told him, 'bedtime' and he melted down. Saying things like, 'The day is over too soon! Now I just have to go to sleep get up and do it all over again.' Isn't he too young to be saying things like that? I tried to reassure him, but he was in a mood where he had a negative response for everything I offered. It gets exasperating. And of course I'm tired as well. He doesn't want to sleep alone...begs me to stay with him. Tells me he is 'so lonely' in the bed alone at night.

Hoping for a good day though.

SW-my son behaves like this as well, except he is younger. Our son has always "updates" us on what's going if we aren't in the room. Last night, I got up to comfort him because his pillow made a funny sound. He is a very emotionally needy kid. And, I hear you that it gets tiring and exasperating. My son gets upset when the "fun" of weekends/school breaks/vacation, etc. ends and we have to go back to the grind.

What works for us is some validation and boundaries. So, it's "Honey, I'm glad to know that you had a good time. Doing what you did with people sounded like fun. It's xx time now. If don't cooperate with bedtime, then we won't have time to read." If the behavior continues, then we say "Well, your behavior is showing us that you cannot handle earlier fun things. If this is how you behave after doing fun things, you are telling us you cannot handle them, and we will have to say "no" to fun things in the future."

I've also found that tickling works well, when a child will hold on to you, not wanting you to leave. My son has told me that my DH is lucky that he has someone to share a bed with at night.

Something that has also helped me as I try to deal with my son is to let go of what I think he should be and accept what he is. When I remind myself to accept the situation, my I deal with things better, even at 2 in the morning, when the pillow makes a funny sound. I also try to remind myself of my son's gifts.

I also try to make small changes in our routine that promotes more of my son's independence. When I was more up on it, we did one change a month. To me that's turtle speed, but then my son doesn't feel like the rules are changing on him.

I've also found that I need to make sure I am taking care of myself, making sure that I'm eating and sleeping decently. I also try to do at least 15 minutes of an activity that calms and focuses me in the morning. I find I'm ready to handle my kids better.


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He may just be the kind of kid who needs some sort of transitional activity between bigger activities.

Friend leaves>bedtime

Versus

Friend leaves>leave son alone for 10 minutes to adjust to friend not being there> announcement of bedtime in 10 minutes.

He may not transition well. Again...talk to the counselor about it. This could be a mild bipolar thing (or just him being 11). He may just be a little immature in this area.

Last edited by Soolee; 03/07/11 11:57 AM.

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Originally Posted by Soolee
He may just be the kind of kid who needs some sort of transitional activity between bigger activities.

Friend leaves>bedtime

Versus

Friend leaves>leave son alone for 10 minutes to adjust to friend not being there> announcement of bedtime in 10 minutes.

He may not transition well. Again...talk to the counselor about it. This could be a mild bipolar thing (or just him being 11). He may just be a little immature in this area.

Thanks Soolee and IRN. It helps to hear other kids are somewhat like this. He doesn't do transition well....and I know this. But when friends leave late and it is past time for bed it is hard for me...He is in a terrible mood this morning. Not looking forward to this day. I will try to remember that he is who he is and not get so expasperated with him.

Oh and yes, I do believe he is a little immature in some areas.

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Maybe he was used to having the stepbrothers in his room for the weekend? What do you think about getting a dog?


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