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What don't you like about RH?
POJA?
Why are we pulling teeth trying to get answers from you? LOL
We want to help but you have to be forthcoming with truthful answers. I'm sorry, I thought I was  I never liked RH because it meant being completely open about everything. I liked my privacy. RH was uncomfortable. And I didn't like POJA because I liked feeling independent. I wanted to do what I wanted to do even when Markos didn't want me to do it.
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The reason I suggest the "white board" is that you too would benefit from feeling embarrassed by your snotty childish behavior. Thank you, Pepperband Have you ever been to a Weight Watchers meeting? They advise writing down every thing you eat or drink. Keeping a food diary stops the dieter from fooling his/her self. If I were serious about stopping some behavior I wanted to control, I would write it down each time I did not control myself. I think my previous post was a little screwy. I hope you did not read it and feel insulted. If it did, I do apologize. 
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What are you doing to heal from the EA? Avoiding triggers and putting all my effort and focus into restoring our marriage. I would STRONGLY suggest you a.) write out a list of EPs. These are especially critical for you since entitlement is running high. Most people have affairs because they don't KNOW they are getting into hot water. You knew it and did it anyways. and b.) write a NC letter. No excuses. Markos needs this and so do you. This is the crux of proving you know how hurtful and wrong your EA was. If my H had been unwilling to write that I would NOT have attempted recovery.
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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and I wanted to do what I wanted to do even when Markos didn't want me to do it. This infuriates me. What a selfish way to live. AND...these selfish ways led to an affair. ARGH.
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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Dr. Harley on POJA: This rule teaches couples to become thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings when they don't feel like it. So when you say you don't like POJA, what you were REALLY saying was "I just don't want to be considerate about Markos's feelings. I don't care if his feelings are hurt, I want to do what I want to do." Do you see this? POJA was really, really, REALLY hard for my H...and if I think about it too much it STILL causes hurt and resentment. Because with all of his griping about "having" to follow POJA, what he was REALLY griping about was having to be considerate of my feelings. And every time I heard him complain about POJA, this is what I "heard", since it's really a policy of consideration. Make sense?
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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Have you ever been to a Weight Watchers meeting?They advise writing down every thing you eat or drink.
Keeping a food diary stops the dieter from fooling his/her self.
If I were serious about stopping some behavior I wanted to control, I would write it down each time I did not control myself. No, I've never done Weight Watchers. But I have done food diaries. Markos and I used to do them together -- he got a list of everything I ate so that I wouldn't be tempted to "cheat" and go over my allotted calories. I can easily see how doing what you've suggested would go a long way towards eliminating DJs. I think my previous post was a little screwy. I hope you did not read it and feel insulted. If it did, I do apologize. Not insulted in the least bit. I am the first to admit that I have spent an entire year being childish.
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I'm sorry if I missed this, but did you write an NC letter? No, no letter. When I told Markos, he blocked OM on facebook. Then we deleted our facebook accounts. And now facebook is blocked entirely on our computers. Facebook is the only way we ever communicated. He doesn't even have my email address. It's been a month and half or so, and No Contact has not been broken. He hasn't attempted to contact me even once, not even to ask what happened. I honestly don't think I matter to him anymore since I am no longer easily accessible. I have written a letter to Markos expressing my sorrow for hurting him so bad, and recommitting myself to making a wonderful marriage. Markos seems satisfied with this. I have already been through the pains of withdrawal, and I have absolutely no desire to speak to the SOB ever again. The affair is dead. The thought of breaking an already firmly established No Contact in order to send a no contact letter gives me the chills. I would write one if Markos wanted it. He hasn't asked me to, though, and seems happy with the No Contact we have in place.
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So when you say you don't like POJA, what you were REALLY saying was "I just don't want to be considerate about Markos's feelings. I don't care if his feelings are hurt, I want to do what I want to do."
Do you see this? Yes. You do not have to convince me that I have lived very selfishly, and at Markos' expense. I have been extremely selfish. I haven't cared about Markos' or his feelings, and I certainly haven't shown him care or protected him from myself. I know I have hurt him immensely. Even before the EA, I was draining his lovebank by refusing to work the program. "For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me." Psalms 51. My sins haunt me day and night. I am starting completely over. My focus is different this time. I am going to change me. I am not arguing against POJA or RA in that previous post, btw, only admitting that I had a problem with those things last year. Both are part of my daily life now.
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My EPs:
1. I will not have male friends
2. I will never go back to Facebook
3. I will avoid any websites similar to Facebook
4. Markos has all my passwords and access to my computer and email whenever he wants.
5. I will not flirt with men
6. I will use POJA with Markos
7. I will be Radically Honest with Markos
8. I will eliminate my lovebusters
9. I will allow only Markos to take care of my EN, and I will take care of his.
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I'm glad to see you're posting!
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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My EPs:
1. I will not have male friends
2. I will never go back to Facebook
3. I will avoid any websites similar to Facebook
4. Markos has all my passwords and access to my computer and email whenever he wants.
5. I will not flirt with men
6. I will use POJA with Markos
7. I will be Radically Honest with Markos
8. I will eliminate my lovebusters
9. I will allow only Markos to take care of my EN, and I will take care of his. Markos asked me to add these: 10. I will not be on a website which is blocked from Markos' job 11. I will tell Markos all websites I post on or become involved with 12. I will block all websites at home that are also blocked from Markos' job Which I'm thrilled to do. He is actually talking to me about it all now, which is a new development.
Last edited by Prisca; 03/16/11 04:23 PM.
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I'm glad to see you're posting! I think Markos is too
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It was more than infatuation on my part. It was definitely two sided. He pursued me.
He made lovebank deposits that I wasn't letting Markos even get close to making. He wooed me and swept me off my feet. I fell in love with OM, built up a fantasy around him, and I crushed Markos. I made January a living hell for Markos. I removed my rings. I told Markos that all I needed him for was a paycheck, and I wished I could divorce him. I lied to him constantly, and hid things from him. I made sure I talked to OM in such a way that Markos could not read the conversations from work (I knew facebook was blocked at Markos' job, so I considered it a safe place not to be observed).
But, now, I don't think OM ever loved me. I think he used me. I think it was more like a "one night stand" on his part. He enjoyed me for awhile, but once I suddenly fell off his radar he dropped me like a hot potato and moved on to more accessible women.
I used to hook up with men online for cybersex before I met Markos, and the relationship with OM was very similar to the relationships with those men. They'd woo me, I would feel attached, but at any point that I became "unavailable" they would quickly drop the relationship and move on. (No, OM and I never cybersexed. But we were headed in that direction).
When Markos cut me off from OM, I went through some serious withdrawal. I knew I'd done the right thing by telling Markos, but I wished I hadn't done so. I missed OM, longed for him, and didn't think I'd ever get over him. I despised Markos for taking him away.
SexyMamaBear wrote me out of the blue in December, and I ended up telling her about OM. She is the one who encouraged me to confess to Markos. I credit her with beating OM out of my system. She is the one who confronted me, calling it an EA. I balked at that. But she told me: "Call it an EA, call it an inappropriate relationship, the words don't matter. You have been unfaithful." (That's paraphrased).
And she's right. I have been unfaithful. And Markos feels betrayed. That's all that really matters.
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doing. Do your parents know what you have done? Markos has told me it would mean a lot to him if I told my parents. He feels he has lost a lot of esteem in their eyes the last year. So I have now told them everything. I have also told one of my shepherds in our church.
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Prisca,
I'm sorry that you seem to be left hanging out there today I just don't know what to say. I just don't see how someone with 5 kids, including an infant and a husband struggling to put together 15 hours a week of undivided attention finds the time for an EA. I'm struggling to understand how you've been here reading for a year now without picking up on the basic concept of extraordinary precautions.
I think others may be sensing that you really aren't serious about recovery or doing much more than getting by and gaslighting Markos about his love busters. Some people may think you were exaggerating his angry outbursts too and like a good husband TRYING to fix things, he took on more responsibility for the problems in your marriage than he should have. I'm not there so I have no idea what his lovebusters look and feel like. We could only go on what you told us.
Having both of you here is GREAT for working a recovery or marriage rebuilding program presuming you are both here honestly making an effort. It doesn't seem you were which makes it hard to trust that you are now. At the same time, I don't want to disappoint Markos because you aren't getting responses.
I guess what I'm saying is...tell us what you are doing and focus on actions because as much as I want to, your words aren't completely trusted right now.
For example... the words, "NOW...I'm gonna try" seem a little empty.
I hope you understand our position. We don't want to feel confused, conflicted and unable to seemingly help you. We WANT to help you both.
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I know you have no reason to trust me. I am not here to whine and complain about Markos' LB. They are real, but Markos is doing what it takes to eliminate them.Here is what I have done:
1. No one made me confess the EA to Markos. But I did.
2. I did not have to tell you that I refused to work the program last year, or about the EA. Markos did not require me to do that. All he asked me to do was get help for my DJs. Confessing the rest was my decision, and a surprise to him that I had done so.
3. I have EPs in place, which you can see above. I review them daily.
4. Independent Behavior is eliminated. I POJA everything.
5. I am completely, radically honest with Markos. I never was last year. Not once. He can see the difference in me now.
5. I am scheduling 15 hours a week with Markos, willingly. I am working on getting a calendar system set up online so that it will be easier to keep records (and so Markos can see those records from work).
6. I have gone 2 days without making a DJ. I am working on making it a week. I have asked Markos to fill out a lovebusters questionnaire for me.
7. I have asked Markos to fill out a ENQ for me so I can improve on how I'm meeting his EN. In the meantime, I am doing the things for him that I think he likes. I have already given him my ENQ, which he seemed to appreciate.
8. I have told my parents and a shepherd at church about everything. Telling them was the 2nd hardest thing I have ever done, the 1st being telling Markos.
9. I am open to suggestions.
Last edited by Prisca; 03/18/11 09:57 AM.
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I am sorry that I have lied to all of you for so long. I understand that my words sound empty, but I am sorry. And I hope you will give me another chance to prove myself.
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And I hope you will give me another chance to prove myself. For Markos sake, if not for mine.
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I'll be around later and this weekend. We are certainly not done with you or anything. Since you guys went to the MB weekend and it's still only 2:20 pm in Minneapolis, maybe you should contact your coach and try to speak with her or at least make an appointment for next week. You might as well get your money's worth and they really are wonderful people.
I AM excited for you....but hesitant only because I was excited for you before. But my wife didn't raise no quitter (lol) so I'll be around.
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I just thought I'd throw this old post of mine into the mix. Don't know if it will be helpful or even relevant. Just trying. It's regarding the term "foggy" and I mean it as a way for you to dive into and consider the things and issues you may be "foggy" about such that you can bring them to light and seek information and enlightenment on the issues. Clearly we've all got foggy thoughts and feelings. It's our sinful natures. I hope to completely clear the fog by the time I die. So I'm not name-calling but merely asking you: Why so foggy? What are you foggy about? What are you entitled to? What do you deserve? Why are you seemingly so evasive (not necessarily today but you haven't really engaged here on MB after being here a year...you are certainly a friendlier person than that)? Do you think MB'ers are a bit nuts? Here's what I wrote back in 2007 or so: To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
[removed irrelevant]
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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