Please allow me to chime in...

I see it as the ancient difference between men and women.
Haven't you heard the saying (I don't know how it goes in English, but you'll get the gist):

A man provides affection to get sex, whereas a woman provides sex to get affection.

This 'exchange' actually happens in too many relationships.
Even those that follow MB principles, if you come to think of that, though the idea might be worded differently.

And the meaning of a sexual act for most men is different from that for most women.

Another thing, much based on your and her sexual experience:

I really do understand that sex is really important and valuable for you (as in "how could she give away her family jewelry for nothing, or even contemplate it??"). But I hope you see that this didn't mean / wouldn't have meant the same thing for her (for you - family jewelry, for her - perhaps some cheap and ordinary bracelet, nothing to cry about). So while she should have considered your feelings, of course, her motivation/reasoning was much different. In a way, this would have been way worse if she had regarded it as family jewelry herself and yet been ready to give it away... KWIM?

I don't know if I made any sense at all...

Or if it is relevant at all, or if I perhaps made you feel worse instead of making you feel better (the latter being my original goal).

NG said>>>Fleeing from emabarrassment and humiliation is not punishment.

Well gee if she's going to be embarrassed about how Stretch feels because of what SHE did during her A...I got the idea she didn't run away in shame, but rather punished him by leaving him in the bed alone....

Well gee if she's going to be embarrassed about how Stretch feels because of what SHE did during her A

Sophistry! Stop twisting the story as we have it - She didn't react because of what Stretch FELT, but about what he DID.

And if Stretch doesn't start separating his response to her prior, infidelity-biased actions, from that to her current actions, there are going to be many more nights with someone on the couch, in the doghouse, whatever.

How much better would have been a response of "Wow, I never knew you were that resentful of me during the bad times! I'm glad we're both committed to NEVER going there again."? (Kiss, caress, dim the lights.....)

Why?

His pain, his lack of desire to have SF with his wife, is a natural consequence of the affair.

To smile and do it anyway is protecting her from the consequences of her actions, and dishonest to boot.

Why?

1) Because NOT to do so will render meaningless the effort and good work Stretch has already put in.
2) Because IF he and FWW are going to make a go of this, they can't be spending energy throwing "Gotcha!" bombs at each other.
3) Because this is a site called MARRIAGE BUILDERS, remember? I don't know if there is a site called "BARELY-POLITE-COHABITATION-SITUATION BUILDERS" but I wouldn't want to waste any effort there.

Never Guessed. You have plenty of good advice. I am not on this forum to get a ton of pats on the back, head nodding agreement. There is tough love and 2x4. I want that.

Sometimes your posts can tilt towards the colorful. Its honestly difficult to sort it all out. There's more than one subject going on amongst all the colorful language. But I am seeing good tips inside.

She took a break. She felt vulnerable, lying there naked with me bundled up making an accusation. NG, you are right. Together wife and I reviewed the conversation and I said, "You did..." rather than "I felt..."

Also, Harley recommends in "Recovering Sexual Desire" to make negotiations pleasant and safe and sometimes "stop for a while and come back to the issue later."

We have already come back to the issue. We are communicating via text and email last night and today.

She said, "Perhaps if I would have heard: "I feel confused or hurt as I wonder if some of our past intimacies were special because of your guilt, instaed of a desire to show your love" the implication can remain, but the feelings are your choice, even if they are based on my actions. As we continue on this discovery, more of your feelings of anger/fear will surface."

NG - I will get back to some of your other requests next...

sorry i didnt realize it was more accusatory than expressing your feelings stretch...my bad.

What was the use of #3 there, other than to be snide?

The attitude of the both of them toward SF needs to be realigned.

His verbal response, and response thereafter may have been off, but a lack of desire at times is bound to happen. It happens to many BWs, it happens to many BHs.

Particularly in the case of a BH, if the desire is not there, it's pretty dang obvious... hello? If the soldier don't stand at attention, he can't go to war now, can he?

You are CORRECT that this is NOT an opportunity to LB or toss the A in her face. It IS a consequence of the A. It then becomes an opportunity for some RH and use of PoJA.

"Sweetheart, I am feeling a little down right now, and can't go through with this. But, I would be happy to hold you so we can talk."

It sounds like stretch has a completely different view of SF within his M than his W. Part of this was because she had some "SF baggage" from having partners before and outside of marriage.

Her statements on her view of SF were, at part, typical wayward fog, and typical as to why she engaged in an A - she didn't value SF with her husband as an expression of love and care.

Now, for him to "correct" this would be nothing more than a big, fat DJ. He cannot verbally "fix her."

What he CAN do, is to take SF opportunities to DEMONSTRATE what SF means to him, what she means to him. Fixing THAT bond is win/win.


Stretch, food for thought;

(explicit content alert)

Stretch, your gracious reply is intensely gratifying to someone who has walked your current path less than two years ago.

Remember: Eyes on the prize! Eyes ALWAYS on the prize!

All right, here is the tip of the iceberg"

"Your boobs look great."
"Your [censored] looks good in those jeans."
"Well, you give a girl a couple cheap beers and ..."
"You like steak? I got a big steak for you."
"Lets add some red meat to your diet."
"You are one hot MILF"
"Your friend is hot."
Spend all Saturday doing my own thing, not talking to her, engaging or taking an interest and then expect sex Sat. night.
"I love that bra and panties combo."
Come home from work and pinch her on the butt
Whine and sulk if I'm not getting enough.
Childish, immature innuendo
"Remember last night? That move you did was so hot. You know why? Because...details, details, description and replay"
Telling guys at work I had great sex last night

Any of these sound familiar to husbands out there lurking?

Yup. Sure do.

Know what else? The OM did no better.

I have no reason to beat myself up over any of that, when FWW talks to ME a lot like that now, and OM's big, seductive line was "I've got a storage unit..."

Where you nailed it down, stretch, is when you state that that was the ONLY thing you talked about with her.

Wow.



Okay, Stretch, I give you high props for your honesty here. I would hope you would acknowledge that if your FWW is going to be expected to look past these former transgressions, and start your married life anew, you must accord her the same courtesy.

Now, what do YOU want to do with this insight into your prior behavior and actions?

The first step in any behavioral change activity would be to identify the behavior that is desired to be changed. I'm assuming your answer might be, "All of that, and anything like it I forgot to mention."

Somebody with a collection of diplomas on the wall and letters after his name would explain that true abatement would require delving into the reasons why you felt it was advisable to treat your wife those ways. Months of analysis later the conclusion would be reached that your demonstrated dismissive attitude toward women as persons was initiated when Grandma banged your head on the bassinet railing when changing your diaper, or some such incident. I know I can't and (except maybe for Dr Harley), would opine that no one here is capable of taking you through that process.

The best I can do is suggest you merely divert some of your more irritating tendencies slightly to actions more acceptable to the recipient, your wife.

Accordingly:

• "Your boobs look great." becomes "You've maintained a remarkably attractive figure."
• "Your [censored] looks good in those jeans." becomes, "Wow! VERY nice jeans!"
• "You are one hot MILF" morphs into "You are a dynamite lady. I'm a lucky guy."
• "Come home from work and pinch her on the butt" would be exchanged for "Come home and run my fingers through her hair"
• "Remember last night? That move you did was so hot." is OUT! "Last night was wonderful! It was on my mind all day!" is now IN.
• "Telling guys at work I had great sex last night" - sophomoric, and a breach of intimacy. "Telling her - in a letter for her to find - that the sex last night was fantastic, and memorable." will flatter her and reinforce your intimate connection.

(The rest of the incidents might best be eliminated entirely.)

Anyway, that's what I got. Let us know your thoughts.

Something Harley wrote about is:
"Secondary Gains" from unpleasant thoughts. The unpleasant thoughts must have some usefullness, so if I get rid of the usefullness the thoughts will leave.

Right now the demons and thoughts cross my mind. My wife told me last night she understands it will be hard as each new realization about what was happening to me pops up. My feelings are valid.

But when they come up obsessively, I need to do some work. My personal therapist said he can help with secondary gains as well.

Right now, there are difficult places to drive past, difficult songs, difficult dates, difficult topics... triggers for both of us.

Time and patience... and honesty.

Relocation!

NO WAY. We did 9 years of relo's. My wife was in different states with little babies and I was working. She got sooo lonely and tired. It took us years to get back home where the family network is.

We are living here for good! There are just a few bars that we will never step foot in again.

Well, depending on how strong those triggers are, you will eventually have to make some choices.

If you are dead-set against total relocation, how about a town or two over, just so you have fresh surroundings, while staying close to family?

Nah. We're staying here.
And the triggers will go away I believe especially when she understands them.

Our SF has been really good. Especially at the marriage retreat this weekend. So I am not terribly worried about these problems right now.

If we get into recovery (which feels like it'll be very soon) then I know there is a whole new wonderful world of intimacy awaiting.

Stretch....still very jealous of your situation! Rooting for you all the way!

Thanks Andy. We have a chance. She still is not ready to commit. No ring back on her finger. We still have pain to go through and trust to rebuild.

But she is here. She has not left. We are parenting the children, making progress, intimate every day. We prayed for each other last night before falling asleep.

Her heart went for another man and that hurts, hurts, HURTS! She fantasized about him and that hurts.

So this is supposed to be a thread about SF after the affair...
So, I am fighting demons of suspicion. To be specific, why is she giving me SF each time. A tool? To appease me? To reward me? For guilt? Because its her "duty? And how many times during and after the A was she totally distracted.
I guess I want it to be out of love and emotion every time. Even the quickie's. Those quickly take care of shared urges, and IMO they are just fine in M. But I still think even the quickie's show a lot of love and connection. She got herself to believing that 80% of the time it was just an act she did for hubby with no great emotional connection.

Stretch - that's interesting, especially about the quickies. See, that's all I got after the A started. She was there physically, but not emotionally. That was actually one of those things that didn't quite add up and led me to believe that there was something going on. We used to have an extremely active love life and it really dropped off. I thought it was the surgery, but now I know better.